Missilespam, Point Defense's OP & UPness, and Turret Lag

[jayman38]

I don't play in combat, but I'm seeing a lot of talk about how massive missile swarms simply cook servers. I recommend a geometric energy cost for more missile outputs after about 100 (server configurable). (So ships that fire more than 100 missiles at once are severely punished, but can still do so... to a point.)

While it may punish people who love a missile boat (and who doesn't love a Macross Missile Massacre?), it resolves both issues of server lag due to an overwhelming number of missile entities, and allows PD to continue to be effective again.

 

[Lecic]

If you start adding more code into how PDs work, its just going to slow it down even further.
Adding hp to missiles is a bad idea, players will just make bigger/longer PDs.

It all comes down with what is more effective, maybe make pulse destroy missiles in its bubble? Or players make better PDs and put them in better places, ive only ever had to use 6 on my 400m ships

Adding code that reduces the overall count of PD turrets for larger PD turrets is GOOD. That reduces overall lag. The fewer entities, the better. This can be seen pretty simply by spawning 1k cores and spawning a ship with 1k blocks and comparing performance.

Additionally, 6 PD for a 400m ship may be a bit... too few. Pulse COULD work as an AMS system, but it might be a bit overpowered since you could make a shield that has a 100% chance to block missiles, and lots of pulses tends to cause some severe lag. "Improving" PD designs has very little effect.

 

[Deserea]

Allow beams to shoot down missiles again, would clear up those swarmers pretty quick, wouldnt it? would like to see the missile has HP system in place though, would also cut back on the amount of decoys

 

[Ithirahad]

Would give beam/missile a use, I guess...

 

[Lecic]

Allow beams to shoot down missiles again, would clear up those swarmers pretty quick, wouldnt it? would like to see the missile has HP system in place though, would also cut back on the amount of decoys

It'd be cool if there was some sort of system where different PD types were better at taking down different kinds of missiles. Beams are better against swarmers and rapid dumbfires, and cannons are better against everything else?

 

[Jarraff]

Why not changes swarmers so that they only fire one heat seeking missile and thus making them subject to the multi output penalty if you want them to be swarmers.

Seems like it could be tested very easily.

I do like the idea of missile hp scaling with damage output but turning speed should scale inversely so smaller ships can avoid large missiles with no chance of the missle turning around for a second shot

 

[Lecic]

Why not changes swarmers so that they only fire one heat seeking missile and thus making them subject to the multi output penalty if you want them to be swarmers.

Seems like it could be tested very easily.

I do like the idea of missile hp scaling with damage output but turning speed should scale inversely so smaller ships can avoid large missiles with no chance of the missle turning around for a second shot

The main problem with cutting down swarmer numbers so much is that large numbers are the main advantage of swarm missiles. Reducing the number doesn't really help, either, because they can just be logic-fired.

I think a combination of "reducing swarmer numbers per output" and "swarmers won't track unless fired by a player or AI" would help, though.

 

[Jarraff]

The main problem with cutting down swarmer numbers so much is that large numbers are the main advantage of swarm missiles. Reducing the number doesn't really help, either, because they can just be logic-fired.

I think a combination of "reducing swarmer numbers per output" and "swarmers won't track unless fired by a player or AI" would help, though.

Or make is so logic can fire just one weapon computer

Thus fixing the multi-output logic exploit across the board

 

[Lecic]

Or make is so logic can fire just one weapon computer

Thus fixing the multi-output logic exploit across the board

How about "no?" The large majority of logic weapons have the massive debuff of "needing the entire ship to turn to aim," which normal, player controlled guns do not. Swarmers are the only weapon that is overpowered by being able to be logic fired.

 

[Zekester81]

Why not changes swarmers so that they only fire one heat seeking missile and thus making them subject to the multi output penalty if you want them to be swarmers.

This. Removes Swarmers altogether and makes a single missile that can lock on by it's self.

 

[Jarraff]

How about "no?" The large majority of logic weapons have the massive debuff of "needing the entire ship to turn to aim," which normal, player controlled guns do not. Swarmers are the only weapon that is overpowered by being able to be logic fired.

Being able to fire more than one weapon at a time is a major buff

 

[NeonSturm]

Ok, what if you make docked entities with logic-enabled ion effect on them to catch missiles?

Wouldn't that buff shields by +150% without taking much energy to buff a large block-count?

 

[Lecic]

Ok, what if you make docked entities with logic-enabled ion effect on them to catch missiles?

Wouldn't that buff shields by +150% without taking much energy to buff a large block-count?

You are aware that logic-enabled effects don't work, yes? Plus, wireless logic breaks all the time.

Being able to fire more than one weapon at a time is a major buff

Have you ever actually used a logic fired weapon before? They are extremely hard to use. Disabling the ability to fire multiple weapons with logic would also ruin a ton of decorative builds.

 

[spunkiethefirst]

Server config: max missiles per mothership entity and max turret ai per mothership entity.

Exceeding missile limit will bring up a "max missiles exceeded" warning info window. Firing in this condition will allow only the max limit of missiles to launch.

Exceeding max turret ai will display "too many turrets" warning info window. Only applies to ai docked to a turret axis. Operating with too many ai will disable turrets until the active remaining turrets is at the max turret limit. Turrets disabled due to limit will display red text, similar to factories, generated from the bobby ai position "turret limit exceeded".

 

[Aynslei]

Disabling the ability to fire multiple weapons with logic would also ruin a ton of decorative builds.

Just want to chime in that it has more than just a decorative purpose, and I agree that would ruin so much.
Since the only weapon that is really abused by logic firing to get past the multi-output penalty is Missile/Missile it means something is wrong with that combo, not every other setup that may wish to use logic weapons.

 

[Deserea]

It'd be cool if there was some sort of system where different PD types were better at taking down different kinds of missiles. Beams are better against swarmers and rapid dumbfires, and cannons are better against everything else?

Thats what i was thinking honestly, cannons are better against the siege/beam missile set ups. Beams are better against the swarms, dumbfires, and both are equally effective against regular missiles

 

[NeonSturm]

1. You are aware that logic-enabled effects don't work, yes? Plus, wireless logic breaks all the time.

2. Have you ever actually used a logic fired weapon before? They are extremely hard to use. Disabling the ability to fire multiple weapons with logic would also ruin a ton of decorative builds.

1. It should… I know :/
2. I made a rapid-fire explosive launcher as soon as it was possible. Now wireless make it even easier and hotkey-logic.
They are just hard to aim (but hitscan with area-triggers can help) and ineffective sometimes.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
I think rapid-fire-cannons, scatter-beams and pulses should be most effective against heat-seekers.

Each PD should be effective against a certain type of missile. Pulse-enhanced PD might do well against single-use alpha-strikers only.
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I don't play in combat, but I'm seeing a lot of talk about how massive missile swarms simply cook servers. I recommend a geometric energy cost for more missile outputs after about 100 (server configurable). (So ships that fire more than 100 missiles at once are severely punished, but can still do so... to a point.)

While it may punish people who love a missile boat (and who doesn't love a Macross Missile Massacre?), it resolves both issues of server lag due to an overwhelming number of missile entities, and allows PD to continue to be effective again.

PD should just target the strongest missile first (except PD's which try to shoot this missile wouldn't be sufficient to kill it in time).

Also implement Seeker-clusters. A ship fires all Seekers that do 1/4 damage compared to the strongest or all which exceed a count of 10 as clusters.
Clusters move as one entity, but have to be hit as many times as they have missiles. They do damage equal to remaining missiles in the cluster.

 

[RabidBat]

I have a great solution. When someone fires so many swarmers, or builds a ship too big, or has too many docked entities that it starts breaking the server I open chat and say "oi, please cut that server breaking shit out. Thank you" :D

Works amazingly well surprisingly enough. The simplest solutions often do. 2000-3000 heat seekers bringing your server to a halt? Set a cap in the server rules maybe?

Rule 1.0 Do stupid and break the server and you'll be warned, kicked and possibly banned.

You're welcome.

 

[Jarraff]

You are aware that logic-enabled effects don't work, yes? Plus, wireless logic breaks all the time.



Have you ever actually used a logic fired weapon before? They are extremely hard to use. Disabling the ability to fire multiple weapons with logic would also ruin a ton of decorative builds.

I have used logic fired cannon and dumb fire arrays and they can be very effective block removal weapons if you pin your target withe emp or stop. But you are right they are not abused like logic spammers.

Another possibility is if there are more than x number of missiles in a sector swammers could start targeting the ship that fired them.

 

[Lecic]

Another possibility is if there are more than x number of missiles in a sector swammers could start targeting the ship that fired them.

I think it'd be nice if swarm missiles (or any missile) could hit their own ship once they'd left the ship's bounding box. This would allow for a nimble fighter to trick a big swarm boat into hurting itself with its own swarmers. It'd also make swarmers an ineffective anti-boarder tool, since they'd just hit the main ship.