Missiles and Large Ships vs. Small Ships

[Calhoun]

They tend to have the worst block damage scaling, for relative size, compared to other weapons

nibba wat

 

[Dr. Whammy]

What do you mean by this?

I've been doing some number testing. On paper, the damage of missiles are double what other weapons have but they lose even more than just the 50% (via the explosion mechanic) that they are supposed to. The small scale tests showed that missiles had roughly 65-75% of the block destruction efficiency of cannon arrays of the same size. My larger tests showed similar results. Bigger arrays (of all weapon types) don't scale as well as smaller ones but missiles seem to suffer the biggest penalty, the larger they get.

One thing that is very promising is the fact that a missile with full punch through effect eats up a LOT of armor HP as it destroys blocks. However, their max physical damage is limited somehow; regardless of total damage "on paper". The best example of this was when I fired a single 20 million damage missile at a 6,000 mass ship with 1 million shields and 1 layer of standard armor. The shields dropped and there were a lot of armor HP lost but the ship was mostly intact. I've repeated this test several times from different ranges and angles of attack; same results. I then tried different ships; same results. I've heard that the limit is set by radius but a 20 million damage missile should have vaporized the majority of that ship on the first shot.

At this stage, since missiles have unlimited reloads, this doesn't bother me; as i can always fire again. What does bother me is their ineffectiveness vs shields.

I get that missiles are alpha weapons but for me to fire 12-14 million damage worth of missiles at a heavily shielded target; only to see 4 to 4.5 million damage register against shields, seems broken to me. Beams and cannons do not suffer vs shields in this manner.
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This ammunition suggestion does nothing to fix any of these problems and ammunition is not necessary to fix any of these problems either.

You don't even know what I was inviting you to discuss.

Spoiler

It wasn't ammo...

No worries, by all means; disagree for the sake of disagreement and enjoy your lag.

 

[Non]

I fired a single 20 million damage missile

Using a missile that large is a poor choice. A well designed missile system can instakill a ship of similar size to the one launching the missiles. A missile that does more damage than it would take to destroy every block in its radius is poor design for block damage, and to my understanding all that extra damage goes out the window. Now I should state that I'm not a missile boat guy, so if we really want to go into this we need to get someone who is.

What does bother me is their ineffectiveness vs shields.

Missiles are fine against shields, when I have had my missiles hit shielded targets they have done appropriate damage. If you really believe that missiles can't do good shield damage, go talk to people who make good missile boats.

they lose even more than just the 50% (via the explosion mechanic) that they are supposed to.

Probably no more detrimental than poorly made beam and cannon systems that penetrate through their targets and lose half their damage.

The small scale tests showed that missiles had roughly 65-75% of the block destruction efficiency of cannon arrays of the same size.

I don't know how you tested or measured this, but I would roughly agree. If I have two well designed weapon systems of equal mass, one being a beam/cannon array and the other being missile/beam, the b/c array does more damage in a 45 second cycle than the missiles. I don't see a problem with this, it's the price paid for having all that damage frontloaded at the beginning of the 45 seconds rather than spread out.

 

[kulbolen]

yeah missiles are garbage, ignore the fact that you can almost instantly cripple ships with them because youre fronting 45 seconds of pewpew.

 

[Dire Venom]

Missiles are already pretty powerful, they need downsides for being homing and AOE. From what I understand, if you hit an extremity of the ship and not much was in range then it would sense that less damage was done to the shields.
An Ion beam will already oneshot every shield if of decent size imo, if you want more shield damage on missile just add Ion.

 

[Antikristianos]

Missiles are already pretty powerful, they need downsides for being homing and AOE. From what I understand, if you hit an extremity of the ship and not much was in range then it would sense that less damage was done to the shields.
An Ion beam will already oneshot every shield if of decent size imo, if you want more shield damage on missile just add Ion.

good that now ships will get multiple shields so you cant take them out with one shot anymore

 

[Dire Venom]

good that now ships will get multiple shields so you cant take them out with one shot anymore

Yup. I fail to see why missiles need buffs though. Care to elaborate?

 

[Antikristianos]

Yup. I fail to see why missiles need buffs though. Care to elaborate?

I do not think that missiles need any buffs at this point.
I wait for the comming "weapons update" until i will think about weapons and their abillitys again.

 

[Non]

good that now ships will get multiple shields so you cant take them out with one shot anymore

No, this will still happen, in fact missiles will be the most capable of doing it.

 

[Antikristianos]

No, this will still happen, in fact missiles will be the most capable of doing it.

perhaps you misuderstood my meaning

it will not be possible to take aut all Shields of a ship in ONE shot.
if you hit a ship with a volley of 100 missiles and achive to hit every shield it has you may me able to shut them all down. but it would not be one shot

 

[Non]

if you hit a ship with a volley of 100 missiles and achive to hit every shield it has you may me able to shut them all down. but it would not be one shot

You don't need to take down all the shields, just a large enough area for you to do the structure and armor damage you need to overheat. I've repeated myself too many times on this, but missile alpha is the most capable of any system if you are trying to deal large amounts of damage to a single area. The first part of the volley breaks the shields in said area, the remaining part of the volley kills the ship. Try doing that kind of focused damage with beams at 5km.

 

[Zoolimar]

You don't need to take down all the shields, just a large enough area for you to do the structure and armor damage you need to overheat.

You won't be able to do it in the new system. Only reactors would count. So you could blow up 90% of the ship but if the reactor and stabilisers still work it won't go down.

 

[Non]

You won't be able to do it in the new system. Only reactors would count. So you could blow up 90% of the ship but if the reactor and stabilisers still work it won't go down.

That changes just about nothing as far as combat goes, if you don't know where the reactor is then its still down to dealing the most block damage you can in a given time frame in an attempt to find it, in which case missiles will still do the best. If you do know where the reactor is, and missiles target it, then missiles are still king. If you know where the reactors are, but missiles can't target it and just go for the center of mass or something, then missiles will be complete shit at overheating and need severe buffs, however, they may still be the most effective way of disabling a ship just because they can remove such large areas of blocks.

 

[Zoolimar]

You would be able to determine where the reactor is, at least Devs said so, but would missiles target it or not is unknown.

 

[GDPR 302420]

This entire suggestion is already present within the game.

Warheads, more specificly warhead torpedos.

• Physical ammunition
  
• Same size regardless of whenever its on a small ship or a large one
• Smaller ships can compete with titans with this weapon (ignore shields, which is the primary defence on almost all PvP ships)
• Smaller ships can carry less of this weapon then larger ships

I would think this suggestion should be lobbed under the implemented tag.

Implemented
The feature described in this suggestion is already implemented into the game in one form or another. Updates may happen to it but the bulk of what it is is already in the game.

 

[dwwojcik]

This entire suggestion is already present within the game.

Warheads, more specificly warhead torpedos.

• Physical ammunition
  
• Same size regardless of whenever its on a small ship or a large one
• Smaller ships can compete with titans with this weapon (ignore shields, which is the primary defence on almost all PvP ships)
• Smaller ships can carry less of this weapon then larger ships

I would think this suggestion should be lobbed under the implemented tag.

You might consider torpedoes an implementation of my suggestion (although I don't, which is why I suggested it in the first place) but chances are it will be un-implemented if when the crew update comes NPCs replace Bobby AI.

 

[GDPR 302420]

but chances are it will be un-implemented if when the crew update comes NPCs replace Bobby AI.

So your entire reasoning for having this implemented is based on pure speculation?

You might consider torpedoes an implementation of my suggestion (although I don't, which is why I suggested it in the first place)

Well how is your suggestion any different? :thonk:

 

[dwwojcik]

So your entire reasoning for having this implemented is based on pure speculation?



Well how is your suggestion any different? :thonk:

I prefer 'anticipation' to 'speculation', personally.

In my suggestion missiles are items, not docked ships.

 

[GDPR 302420]

In my suggestion missiles are items, not docked ships.

And why is it suddenly an issue if they are "docked ships"

Other than this insignifiant and meaningless difference, the mechanics of this suggestion and the desired effects are identical to your proposition.

If you are seeking to build a ship with this functionality then warheads literaly achieve the exact thing you want, if you are having trouble I am pretty sure alterintel has a few tutorials on Warhead torpedos.

 

[dwwojcik]

And why is it suddenly an issue if they are "docked ships"

Other than this insignifiant and meaningless difference, the mechanics of this suggestion and the desired effects are identical to your proposition.

If you are seeking to build a ship with this functionality then warheads literaly achieve the exact thing you want, if you are having trouble I am pretty sure alterintel has a few tutorials on Warhead torpedos.

It's an issue because, unless the developers change their plans, you'll have to send a crewmember to their death every time you want to fire a torpedo...