Lets Be Honest: Docked Power Generators

    Edymnion

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    Okay, lets be perfectly honest.

    Every last one of us that builds large ships uses docked power generators. Hell, I've built MINING SHIPS in the past that required docked power generators because I wanted a big, solid beam and the power tax for that many arrays put the beam over 1m e/sec.

    We like building big, and when we build big we need a *LOT* of power just for simple things like moving the ship (again, I've had multiple ships that required over 1m/sec just to move).

    The current power soft cap is a bit annoying, but I can accept that its there for a good reason, but lets be honest. We're going to build these massive ships one way or another, and whatever tricks get put in to try and regulate that we'll just simply find a way around them.

    The lag problems for the docked generators come from the collision detection, having all those extra cores, constantly rendering the power transfer beams, the logic running to keep those beams running, etc. Aka, most of the lag from big ships comes directly from the measures trying to stop big ships from existing in the first place.

    So, why don't we just accept that people who want to build big are going to build big, and start trying to optimize for that?

    If we're building docked reactors because they're more efficient than piling generators in as giant solid cubes, then why don't we just find a way to make the soft cap apply per array?

    ---

    My suggestion? Add a Power Reactor Computer. Link power generator blocks to the computer using the current linking and efficient power generation design philosophy, and call that a reactor. That reactor now has it's own soft cap of 1m e/sec. Need more than that? Plop down another reactor computer, and build another reactor.

    Then to help balance it, simply put in a mechanic that says secondary reactors don't scale as well as primary ones. Maybe secondary reactors only produce power at 2/3rds the rate of a primary reactor, or whatever would end up replicating the current power cost for running the beams.

    If we then say a ship's core counts as a kind of reactor computer that doesn't have the tax, then smaller ships can just build their power generators the way we do now, and no one would ever see anything different. Big builders could then plop down reactor computers and build their own secondary reactors like we do docked reactors today, only there would be no collision detection, no beam lag, no logic lag because they would all be integrated directly into the ship.

    ---

    People aren't going to stop building big for any reason short of an unchangeable server hard cap on ship sizes, so instead of fighting that, why don't we just accept it and plan around it?
     
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    Hardcap on ship size, brilliant idea!

    In all seriousness the ability for beams to hit the ship they're docked on should just be removed, softcap should stay and if you want oversized ships, then build oversized chunks of power gen. There's also a good suggestion regarding a good system for providing alternate power to larger ships through a fuel system. http://starmadedock.net/threads/fuel-as-a-replacement-for-docked-reactors.20597/#post-224467
    It's really annoying when people whine because their super omega hyper megaship isn't supported properly by a game that's trying to prevent a super omega hyper megaship from existing. Really it is.
     

    Edymnion

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    It's really annoying when people whine because their super omega hyper megaship isn't supported properly by a game that's trying to prevent a super omega hyper megaship from existing. Really it is.
    And yet we have support for boarding parties?

    Also, again, lets be honest here. It doesn't matter if you think we shouldn't have big ships, the fact is that we do. Lots of people make lots of big ships. If there wasn't a very large number of people doing it, then there wouldn't be any issues around the lag it creates because it would be so rare that anyone actually ran into it.

    It happens, it happens every day, and just because you think someone shouldn't build a big ship doesn't mean the system should actively stop people from playing it in the way they want to play.

    Its a SANDBOX game.

    And just to top it off, if they really wanted to get rid of docked power generators, all they'd have to do is yank the power transfer beams. I have never seen anyone use those for any reason other than a docked generator. Nobody goes around shooting power at other ships just for giggles. They seem to exist solely for the purpose of docked generators.
     
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    jayman38

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    It isn't so much that we'd want huge ships to be impossible. We just want to integrate more skill and less lag into making them viable.

    Besides, I think we should have control computers on all ship systems, to support a possible future feature of controlling or targeting individual systems on a ship.

    On a side note, I think we can replace all "control" computers with a standard, generic computer block that simply works as the controller, depending on what's connected to it. Then you can make that control computer in 8 different colors to accommodate color schemes. With all the different systems available, I think that would save us some block IDs.

    I would guess, that if multiple systems were to be connected to the computer, it would only drive the first or last connected system? Example, if you connected shields to a computer, and then connected cannons to it, it would either be a shield controller or a cannon controller, but not both.

    Edit: On the other hand, making a multi-system computer possible would be better for small ships like fighters, and would create a single-point-of-failure targeting opportunity for the enemy.
     
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    It's really annoying when people whine because their super omega hyper megaship isn't supported properly by a game that's trying to prevent a super omega hyper megaship from existing. Really it is.
    I'm in the process of building an 800K block ship. That is FAR from the titans that many dream of. I built my ship with four docked power reactors. I am now rebuilding it from scratch, as among other reasons, four docked reactors were not enough to keep the ship from rapidly eating into battery power whenever it used it's engines. I do not think the developers are deliberately trying to keep me from building an 800K block ship, let alone some sort of "super omega hyper megaship".

    The basic premise of having a soft cap was not so much a cap on large ship size, but rather a boon for small ship sizes. It was to confer an easy advantage to small ships so as to make them slightly less useless. Power reactors are nowhere near as effective as a well built set of power lines in a 'small' ship. One of my power reactors will give a ship roughly 550K power per second using 9300 blocks. That works out to a power efficiency of 60 per block. That is not 'that' much higher than the 25 power a standard power block will give a ship that has exceeded the soft cap bonus. By contrast, a small ship can generate that much power very easily for much less than 1500 blocks.

    In short, power reactors are hardly grossly imbalancing. They are simply a mechanism whereby large ships can be viable. The problem with docked power reactors is not that they permit the existence of large ships. (I am quite certain that not a single developer out there thinks people building large ships is a bad thing.) The problem with docked power reactors is the lag they cause from being docked in the first place, their power beams, their logic systems, etc., and the problems that can arise for a server if docked reactors become undocked during a battle.

    Edymnion's suggestion is a perfectly reasonable suggestion to allow the existing paradigm to continue. It replicates the effect of current docked power reactors with a mechanism that has none of these problems and allows ships to be easily retrofitted.
     
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    My suggestion? Add a Power Reactor Computer. Link power generator blocks to the computer using the current linking and efficient power generation design philosophy, and call that a reactor.
    That could cause another issue, every block linked is stored in the ships files, if i remember correctly with its cords and the computer its linked too, so this would bloat ship files a lot, and might even increase the amount of data that gets transfered when a ship loads. Linking lights to Hull/Armor to color it in different shades was rejected for that reason.


    Aside that, im propably one of the few people who do like Docked Reactors, except for the Lag they cause, and their impact on FPS. They are just something more complicated than just simply spamming blocks, something i never liked about most basic ship systems in starmade, and they create possible weak points.

    But that makes me question, did anybody ever think about how we could improve those drawbacks instead of just replacing or removing docked reactors? Little summary from my documents:

    Beam Lag, change the Supply Beams to a wireless transmitter type system that simply does supply the generated energy to the ship the entity is docked to. Sure that would make supplying another ship with energy over a distance impossible, but with capacitors being nothing more than a limiting factor for high alpha weapons and a small buffer, i dont see them being used for anything else than docked reactor anyways.

    Collision Checks, stop an entity with running Power Supply Beams (or their replacement) from checking for collisions with the ship its docked too. Might open the gates for some minor exploits, but nothing major crossed my mind so far.

    Impact on FPS, i dont know if Starmades engine is able to do this, but most games dont render things that are hidden from the players view due to being behind other objects. If this would be possible, docked reactors and any other objects inside or behind a ship would not be rendered until they are visible. This would improve Starmades performance in general, especially for carriers.

    Collisions should a Reactor undock, well this is an issue, i personally used to add failsaves to my reactor bays, something undocks? fire pulse missiles at that bay, the only thing that remained was a core, well unles the failsafe failed too...
    Now i guess we cant expect everyone from building such failsafe systems, and even the remaining cores still cause collision checks. So how about a no clipping with the mothership status for entities that get undocked due to a rail or raildocker being destroyed?


    Just my two cents...
     
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    A 800k block ship shouldn't be unsustainable using normal methods. If it is you're using a lot more power than a ship that size can sustain, and that's your problem no?

    All I see here is "Big ships are hard 2 maek, plz maek easy." So ok, I'm sure -that- will happen.

    Again, I'll refer you to the thread about using fuel to produce a lot more power. A solution that works and requires upkeep costs (fuel), which to me seems a fair balance of power needs and upkeep costs/difficulty.
     

    Edymnion

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    All I see here is "Big ships are hard 2 maek, plz maek easy." So ok, I'm sure -that- will happen.
    Then I don't think you're looking hard enough, honestly.
    What I'm suggesting doesn't make building a large ship any easier than what we have now, it just cuts out the lag inducing parts.
    Again, I'll refer you to the thread about using fuel to produce a lot more power. A solution that works and requires upkeep costs (fuel), which to me seems a fair balance of power needs and upkeep costs/difficulty.
    Which will honestly require a hell of a lot more work on the back end to implement an entire new fuel system. This uses just what is already in the game. No need for new systems, and only need for one new block.
     
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    Aside that, im propably one of the few people who do like Docked Reactors, except for the Lag they cause, and their impact on FPS. They are just something more complicated than just simply spamming blocks, something i never liked about most basic ship systems in starmade, and they create possible weak points.

    But that makes me question, did anybody ever think about how we could improve those drawbacks instead of just replacing or removing docked reactors? Little summary from my documents:
    I agree with this statement. A docked reactor is an intelligent design that takes some level of skill and building experience to do right.
    They are very much a weak spot should one decide to rely on them, they can be taken out before the main ships shields are dropped, if even slightly damaged can end up destroying the power regen of the ship attached to them instead of boosting it.

    The OPs suggestion offers no real drawbacks other than maybe having a power nerf, which would just mean bigger ships acting like smaller ships still.

    Beams are buggy, intensive, and need some work done, people are aware of this.
    Collision checks need work, people are aware of this.

    Also "Power Reactor Computer" ewww just eww.
     

    Edymnion

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    Internal docked reactors are no longer a liability.

    Missiles and explosions no longer hit things behind your hull. To actually damage a docked reactor, an opponent is going to have to first drop the ship's shields entirely, then blast holes through the armor and the systems to reach the internal reactor. At that point, there is no difference in if its docked or built in other than the server problems caused by it undocking. You hit it hard enough to blow it off the dock, and that same hit would have broken all of your power lines and crippled the reactor anyway.

    The only vulnerable docked reactors are external ones, and anyone who wants to build a combat ship is going to know not to put essential unshielded, unarmed parts outside of their ship hull.
     

    sayerulz

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    Can we not just have fueled rectors that can break the softcap? or fuel required for everything
     

    Tunk

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    As a alternative, perhaps we could go with a 'system core'?
    Rather than treating the docked entity as a ship it is treated as a stationary entity (no thrust, unmovable other than being dockable) with its own much lighter collision handling, or fobbing it off as part of the parent entity (virtual blocks on the parent).

    Also allows schine to hide docked entities that aren't actual ships from nav, for example doors, turret bases, armour plates, shield sub systems, docked reactors, inline generators etc.
     
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    Beam Lag, change the Supply Beams to a wireless transmitter type system that simply does supply the generated energy to the ship the entity is docked to. Sure that would make supplying another ship with energy over a distance impossible, but with capacitors being nothing more than a limiting factor for high alpha weapons and a small buffer, i dont see them being used for anything else than docked reactor anyways.
    What about some Support Docker Block that acts like a Raildocker but can transmit the kind of Support-Effect it is connected to (modules->computer->docker) without the actual beam.


    Collisions should a Reactor undock, well this is an issue, i personally used to add failsaves to my reactor bays, something undocks? fire pulse missiles at that bay, the only thing that remained was a core, well unles the failsafe failed too...
    Now i guess we cant expect everyone from building such failsafe systems, and even the remaining cores still cause collision checks. So how about a no clipping with the mothership status for entities that get undocked due to a rail or raildocker being destroyed?
    Would be nice to have the Reactor enter a mothership related no-clip state for the first 20-30 seconds it gets undocked. To keep this from getting abused it should require an empty core and maybe the same name as the entity it got undocked from (like the different entities and turrets are saved right now anyways).
     
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    Perhaps make each reactors power output square rooted aka diminishing return, forcing you to make lots of seperate reactors
     

    Keptick

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    Perhaps make each reactors power output square rooted aka diminishing return, forcing you to make lots of seperate reactors
    That would only amplify the lag problem and basically make everything worse. Sorry, but bad idea...