Fuel, as a replacement for docked reactors.

[Lecic]

Currently, a one of the causes of lag with large ships seems to be from docked reactors- they cause beam lag, lag from numerous entities, and collision lag due to usually being within the boxdim of a ship, and cause horrendous lag if internal generators get undocked.


I suggest a fuel system to replace these. Fuel would be refined from water, or directly harvested from gas giants, if those are ever added. Fuel itself does nothing. To use it, you need to create fuel cells. Fuel cells could either be created full (fuel + some metal mesh or something like that), or created empty and filled with an empty fuel cell + fuel.

To use the fuel cells, you link them to a fuel powered generator. This generator produces a large amount of power (600k e/s, perhaps), but drains fuel from fuel cells linked to it. All fuel cells (empty or otherwise) in a group must be touching, and at least one must touch the generator. Multiple fuel groups cannot touch, so you'll need to separate them or their generators would not work. These generators would have a hotkey to activate or deactivate. While inactive, they produce no power and drain no fuel. While active, they produce 600k e/s each, and turn random fuel cells within the group they're linked to to empty fuel cells.

This leads to a new design choice- you can make a few well fueled generators for less power but for a long time, or you can make a lot of generators with small fuel reserves for a ton of power for a short length of time. Perhaps generators could also be activated with logic, allowing for large amounts of power to be produced in an emergency.

Empty fuel cells could be refilled by a shipyard, allowing for a quick and easy fuel refill process.

This suggestion, would, of course, require the inability for power supply beams/power drain beams to hit the ship they're docked to/hit things docked to them. Otherwise, people would continue to use docked generators.

I feel this suggestion would fix two of the big issues this game currently has- docked generator lag, and a lack of maintenance cost for larger ships.

 

[alterintel]

I'm all for any idea that gets me a decent amount of power in a small space. Thanks

 

[Valck]

Fuel would be refined from water, or directly harvested from gas giants, if those are ever added. Fuel itself does nothing. To use it, you need to create fuel cells. Fuel cells could either be created full (fuel + some metal mesh or something like that), or created empty and filled with an empty fuel cell + fuel.

To use the fuel cells, you link them to a fuel powered generator. This generator produces a large amount of power (600k e/s, perhaps), but drains fuel from fuel cells linked to it. All fuel cells (empty or otherwise) in a group must be touching, and at least one must touch the generator. Multiple fuel groups cannot touch, so you'll need to separate them or their generators would not work. These generators would have a hotkey to activate or deactivate. While inactive, they produce no power and drain no fuel. While active, they produce 600k e/s each, and turn random fuel cells within the group they're linked to to empty fuel cells.

This leads to a new design choice- you can make a few well fueled generators for less power but for a long time, or you can make a lot of generators with small fuel reserves for a ton of power for a short length of time. Perhaps generators could also be activated with logic, allowing for large amounts of power to be produced in an emergency.

Empty fuel cells could be refilled by a shipyard, allowing for a quick and easy fuel refill process.

I like the basic idea of fuel requirement, but I think "fuel cells" should work more like a specialized one-slot plex storage, with stack limits of course (or even better IMO, use the proposed full-sized cargo system).
This way, you don't need a shipyard just to refuel a ship which I feel would be excessive, but can have specialized refueling depots (or general purpose stations with fuel tanks), and fuel tankers get an actual raison d'être, once storage transfer between docked entities is implemented.

 

[Visitor]

I generally like the fuel as described in the threads of the past - a way to provide lot of power, though generally more in relation to propulsion rather than supporting whole ships, with said propulsion being the regular one as opposed to current fuel-less, which would have to be made weaker in relation to mass.

But I wouldn't mind it if generally there'd be different ways of powering ships. I am not fond of docked reactors myself - I appreciate inenuity of the idea but to be honest, I cannot agree with any way of avoiding a cap, soft or hard - after all those caps are there for a reason and they were meant to be blanket mechanics for all ships. The horrible lag (probably caused by collision check) is also a big problem but I digress.

This way, you don't need a shipyard just to refuel a ship which I feel would be excessive, but can have specialized refueling depots (or general purpose stations with fuel tanks), and fuel tankers get an actual raison d'être, once storage transfer between docked entities is implemented.

To be honest, I think I'd prefer manual storage transfer when it comes to fuel itself. Having tankers etc seems nice but I'd like to see a bunch of guys grabbing some fuel and traversing the dark corridors of some derelict/unpowered, stranded ship before prepping it for launch being a regular thing.

 

[Valck]

I generally like the fuel as described in the threads of the past - a way to provide lot of power, though generally more in relation to propulsion rather than supporting whole ships, with said propulsion being the regular one as opposed to current fuel-less, which would have to be made weaker in relation to mass.

Seeing that energy is the one thing that's used to power everything, it would make some sense to make that the "choke point", if you will, instead of requiring dozens of individual types of consumables for reaction mass, fusionable matter, cannon ammunition, missile ammunition, and what have you.

To be honest, I think I'd prefer manual storage transfer when it comes to fuel itself. Having tankers etc seems nice but I'd like to see a bunch of guys grabbing some fuel and traversing the dark corridors of some derelict/unpowered, stranded ship before prepping it for launch being a regular thing.

Nothing stops you from that, especially when the derelict in question doesn't have a docking port.
Maybe there could even be a specialized valve for transfer of fuel/consumables/whatever (yeah, in my dreams... ; ) )

 

[Visitor]

Seeing that energy is the one thing that's used to power everything, it would make some sense to make that the "choke point", if you will, instead of requiring dozens of individual types of consumables for reaction mass, fusionable matter, cannon ammunition, missile ammunition, and what have you.

Aaand that's - among other reasons - why my next paragraph about not minding it being expanded to a mechanics regarding effective powering of whole vessel.

Nothing stops you from that, especially when the derelict in question doesn't have a docking port.
Maybe there could even be a specialized valve for transfer of fuel/consumables/whatever (yeah, in my dreams... ; ) )

In theory, you're right but I am pretty sure that people will probably want the feature simple - just dock and move stuff through some shared inventory - in which case there will be no chance of having the scenario I've described, as - let's be honest - most people are lazy and just want the stuff to be done quickly and easily.

 

[Valck]

In theory, you're right but I am pretty sure that people will probably want the feature simple - just dock and move stuff through some shared inventory - in which case there will be no chance of having the scenario I've described, as - let's be honest - most people are lazy and just want the stuff to be done quickly and easily.

But that's their decision and their way of playing, and arguably their loss. And then there are the roleplayers who go out of their way to emulate features that aren't covered by game mechanics. It's difficult to find a middle ground that accommodates both (or yet other) playstyles, but I think Lecic's suggestion is a fair compromise, and I (hope I) made my suggestion in a similar vein.

 

[Panpiper]

I like this idea in principle. I would add simply a caution, that any such fuel/generator option needs to be as useful to a player building a big ship as are current docked reactors. If a player finds themselves constantly struggling to keep their ship fueled, just so they can keep their shields up and their ship flying, they will go back to using docked reactors. The fuel consumed for energy generation needs to be kept reasonable. The actual numbers should be worked out based on the power efficiency of existing docked power reactors and the assumption that a player might need to visit a refueling location once every couple of hours of normal mining operations (say) or after two pitched battles.

 

[sayerulz]

Yes, this seems like a good system. I like fuel, and docked reactors are a bit silly and cause a huge amount of lag. I would support having fuel be the main way to generate power for everything, but I see why people are against that (its because their lazy)

 

[Valck]

(its because their lazy)

stolen for sig (its because Im lazy 2)

 

[Zaphord]

I've seen a few threads like this now, and I like the idea in general. Seeing as I like to build and fly a lot of fighters, I find that generating a lot of energy in a small ship can be challenging at times, so this could be a viable solution for many of my short range fighter designs.

Overdrive could even be used as an afterburner of sorts, turn it on and burn more fuel for more speed.

 

[Lecic]

I like the basic idea of fuel requirement, but I think "fuel cells" should work more like a specialized one-slot plex storage, with stack limits of course (or even better IMO, use the proposed full-sized cargo system).
This way, you don't need a shipyard just to refuel a ship which I feel would be excessive, but can have specialized refueling depots (or general purpose stations with fuel tanks), and fuel tankers get an actual raison d'être, once storage transfer between docked entities is implemented.

Here's how I'd like to see a fuel transfer system, actually- fuel cells can be linked to a rail basic/rotator/turret axis or rail docker. When you dock your ship/something docks to it, you can transfer fuel via the structure tab with some options. [Push to docked] will give you a list of entities docked to you. Clicking one will open a text box asking how much fuel to push. It will autofill to the max amount of fuel you can push to it. [Pull from docked] will give you a list of entities docked to you, from which you can pull fuel from. [Push to main] will push fuel from your ship to whatever you are docked to, and [Pull from main] will pull fuel from whatever you are docked to.

I like this idea in principle. I would add simply a caution, that any such fuel/generator option needs to be as useful to a player building a big ship as are current docked reactors. If a player finds themselves constantly struggling to keep their ship fueled, just so they can keep their shields up and their ship flying, they will go back to using docked reactors. The fuel consumed for energy generation needs to be kept reasonable. The actual numbers should be worked out based on the power efficiency of existing docked power reactors and the assumption that a player might need to visit a refueling location once every couple of hours of normal mining operations (say) or after two pitched battles.

Already accounted for.

This suggestion, would, of course, require the inability for power supply beams/power drain beams to hit the ship they're docked to/hit things docked to them. Otherwise, people would continue to use docked generators.

The numbers should still be balanced in a way that allows the internal space a docked reactor currently takes up to fuel 2-3 battles, though.

 

[Valiant70]

I like this idea with one caveat: I would like the fuel cells to produce power on-demand rather than being on or off. Perhaps players could decide at what capacitor percentage to activate the fuel cells. I think the best way to present that option would be a Fuel Cell Computer that controls a group of fuel cells. That would allow multiple groups of fuel cells that come on at different capacitor percentages. For example, a shipwright might set up a small fuel cell group that activates at 80% power capacity, and a larger one that activates at 50%.

 

[SilverAgeFan]

I've seen a few threads like this now, and I like the idea in general. Seeing as I like to build and fly a lot of fighters, I find that generating a lot of energy in a small ship can be challenging at times, so this could be a viable solution for many of my short range fighter designs.

Overdrive could even be used as an afterburner of sorts, turn it on and burn more fuel for more speed.

What if fuel followed a different curve of a relationship to ship mass, allowing relatively small ships to become hyper-agile? I'm thinking almost as agile as the extremely lightweight ship one makes when starting a new world with your first pile of materials.

But by the time you get up to what would constitute frigate or capital class, the return has diminished so much that it really is not useful?

Fuel becomes a resource allowing for agile fighters flying on overdrive. (Trying to noodle around the reality that the game needs to have top speed limits and currently anything can reach that speed eventually.)

Ships functioning as carriers would be wise to have fueling stations for smaller fighter class ships to restock.

In another thread, someone suggested blocks that explode when destroyed. Maybe fuel storage blocks, when touching each other in bundles larger than say 6 or 8 modules have a chance to explode the entire bundle if one is destroyed. This chance of full system explosion is small at lower numbers but increases exponentially, with massive fuel tanks, say 100 modules or greater pretty much guaranteed to explode if one is destroyed. This creates a strategic need for balance and design regarding how large one makes fuel and refueling tanks as well as how they are defended and insulated from other critical systems.

 

[Lecic]

What if fuel followed a different curve of a relationship to ship mass, allowing relatively small ships to become hyper-agile? I'm thinking almost as agile as the extremely lightweight ship one makes when starting a new world with your first pile of materials.

But by the time you get up to what would constitute frigate or capital class, the return has diminished so much that it really is not useful?

Fuel becomes a resource allowing for agile fighters flying on overdrive. (Trying to noodle around the reality that the game needs to have top speed limits and currently anything can reach that speed eventually.)

Ships functioning as carriers would be wise to have fueling stations for smaller fighter class ships to restock.

In another thread, someone suggested blocks that explode when destroyed. Maybe fuel storage blocks, when touching each other in bundles larger than say 6 or 8 modules have a chance to explode the entire bundle if one is destroyed. This chance of full system explosion is small at lower numbers but increases exponentially, with massive fuel tanks, say 100 modules or greater pretty much guaranteed to explode if one is destroyed. This creates a strategic need for balance and design regarding how large one makes fuel and refueling tanks as well as how they are defended and insulated from other critical systems.

Yeah, you guys are taking fuel in the exact opposite direction I'm pushing for it. You CAN use it on smaller ships, but it's generally not recommended, because small ships don't need that much power.

 

[SilverAgeFan]

Yeah, you guys are taking fuel in the exact opposite direction I'm pushing for it. You CAN use it on smaller ships, but it's generally not recommended, because small ships don't need that much power.

:p Yeah, I see that.

What if there were two types of fuel then, playing with sci-fi tropes, for a total of 3 types of power sources in game. Mix and match as you see fit in your own ship designs:

• The current fuel-less power generators we have in game. Good for lower end and generalist ships, salvage vehicles, etc.
• Your quickly consumable fuels that are good for short range fighter ships, that require regular refueling but provide some advantage to small fighters. (I've read some of the other threads trying to strike a means at balance between maneuverable dogfighters and heavily armored capitals and stations that currently does not exist in game at all.)
• Your rare to find/hard to craft dilithium crystals, antimatter singularities, or beryllium spheres that serve as key reactor cores for much larger ships allowing for much more condensed power reactors? These may still exhaust over time, become damaged, etc. But are balanced in terms of availability vs. rate of consumption or fragility that these become the desirable reactors for the largest of vehicles.

Just toying with ideas. I enjoy the mental tennis match.

 

[Valiant70]

What if fuel followed a different curve of a relationship to ship mass, allowing relatively small ships to become hyper-agile? I'm thinking almost as agile as the extremely lightweight ship one makes when starting a new world with your first pile of materials.

But by the time you get up to what would constitute frigate or capital class, the return has diminished so much that it really is not useful?

Fuel becomes a resource allowing for agile fighters flying on overdrive. (Trying to noodle around the reality that the game needs to have top speed limits and currently anything can reach that speed eventually.)

Ships functioning as carriers would be wise to have fueling stations for smaller fighter class ships to restock.

In another thread, someone suggested blocks that explode when destroyed. Maybe fuel storage blocks, when touching each other in bundles larger than say 6 or 8 modules have a chance to explode the entire bundle if one is destroyed. This chance of full system explosion is small at lower numbers but increases exponentially, with massive fuel tanks, say 100 modules or greater pretty much guaranteed to explode if one is destroyed. This creates a strategic need for balance and design regarding how large one makes fuel and refueling tanks as well as how they are defended and insulated from other critical systems.

As a matter of preference, I don't like this. Judging by previous discussions I've seen about fuel, I'm not alone. A lot of players seem to prefer that fuel be irrelevant for small ships.

Anyway, I really want to see docked reactors disappear due to the issues involved when they are undocked. They're cool, but if it's something that might break off inside the ship, it's a bad idea unless we can use some type of collision damage mechanic to frag them and stop the lag.