Infrastructure vulnerability in Starmade

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    Infrastructure vulnerability in Starmade

    Fuel is a generic concept for a system that gives ships upkeep and maintenance relative to their potential agency. Since the best marker of potential agency is power, fuel must be the price of power. How jealously do nations with aspirations of military power in the real world guard their sources of fuel for their power plants?



    It is not work (or grind) that is required to make fuel a regulating factor. What is required is vulnerability to attack. The cost of controlling more sources of potential agency then becomes defensive strategy (in all its facets; diplomacy, defense, intelligence gathering & defense – all of which already we can and do perform in game, and are not "new dynamics" that would need to be implemented, although value could be added by further facilitating them). At this point diplomacy and defense in a general sense to preserve infrastructure become as valuable a task as mining or pirate hunting for the basic build resources.



    Without fuel, without vulnerable infrastructure (scattered across planets and stations with a variety of functions) to provide that fuel, defense is not a concern within the game, and diplomacy (not a dropdown defining a formal relationship, but actual diplomacy; respecting territory, communicating respectfully, engaging in mutual trade, lending emergency assistance, organizing mutual defense, garnering public image through excellent play) is more of a convenience than a necessity. One need not even plan ahead before provoking a conflict or violating an agreement, as retreat to the invulnerable home base is always an option, and no outlying infrastructure exists.



    If not outright removal of homebase invulnerability (solvable, but potentially undesirable for a variety of arguable reasons), perhaps it would be sufficient to force everything supporting ship-building & ship-maintenance infrastructure (at any but the tiniest of scales) be placed on vulnerable, outlying infrastructure. Say, perhaps, allow invulnerability only on stations meeting strict limitations (max mass, max power, no factories somehow, no shipyards perhaps – the specifics are debatable and indeed very flexible). Then the option for any player to have a safe respawn point and safe storage reserve (though limited in capacity to maybe a few hundred thousand or 1-2 million), a minimum of safe docking, and basically not be able to be permakilled back to the stone age is retained. What is gained is that additional infrastructure can be attacked. Actions now have consequences. Attacks can result in actual long-term damage to an opponent but cannot erase them from the game entirely.



    Perhaps a simple solution – replace homebase invulnerability with a single new block providing a completely invulnerable kind of shield for stations & planets only. A shield powered by faction points, with a power demand that scales with entity mass and/or energy output (including mass/power of docked entities). If rendering a small station with 1M storage, undeathinator, and docking for 10K mass worth of ships cost as much as 1 claimed systems, factions would face choices regarding size of invulnerable command station(s) versus territory held. It would also feed into more quickly depleting the protection of long-inactive faction and over-reaching 1-2 man factions. A 1-man faction could still easily claim a system and have a very small invulnerable home base at a cost easy to pay even logging on a few minutes every few days. Larger more active factions could render a planet invulnerable, or several small stations, or one larger station, but would have to budget for faction points.



    Or perhaps simply limit the total mass of a structure with invulnerability, prohibit factories & shipyards on stations or planets with invulnerability. This is not about nerfing homebases – factions can make any station their home base, this just means that if it has the faction's entire infrastructure wrapped up in it, leaving no part of the faction's manufacture, supply & logistics open to attack it can't be invulnerable. It can be defended by heavy turrets and fleets, but not invulnerable. Perhaps the invulnerable base is just a reserve safehouse with no infrastructure just a large storage, and the actual homebase is vulnarable to attack. As long as the capacity to store a dozen planets worth of goods and churn out fleets of ships within minutes isn't invulnerable, inulnerability can linger on and will no longer prevent real fighting between player empires. Players become motivated to distribute outlying infrastructure rather than centralize them as a single target.
     
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    Interesting suggestion, I would suggest moving it to the suggestions thread though ^_^
     
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    Thank you. :) Not really a suggestion. More an observation in search of discussion.

    I feel like this is too broad to be a suggestion, but is worth putting out into the forumsphere.
     
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    Master_Artificer

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    Yeah this is why warpgate networks by a faction are an exception, not the rule. Same with more than just a homebase station.
    Currently it is way easier for 1 person to tear down 5+ peoples work while they are offline, so starmade encourages and pushes all players towards the "why bother" mentality which can be either good or bad in peoples mentality.

    Even after you add fauna and passive resource generation (and fleet cargo mechanics), it won't be able to overcome this innate push to the "why bother" with all of these new features that the Schine team has slaved over.

    This may be a pessimistic view to some people, but is also a realist.
    Attack is, and will continue to be, stronger than defense. The attacker can scout the defenses, decide what they need to bring, and how to attack.
    Not to mention that player ships have the advantage of using the ESSENTIAL defensive effects. Large drones (like 30k mass and up) work until they wander off, and stations... cant dodge, cant have weapons unless you mount turrets, and cant have any defensive effects to counter the fact that they are immobile paper bastions, even if controlled by a player.



    This is a good discussion, lets talk a-bit about this. Anything I missed? Anything I am wrong about?
     
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    lupoCani

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    I do appreciate that someone else favors renewable fuel, dealt with in terms of production capacity rather than raw quantity. "I don't want to grind for fuel" pops up far too often when it's being discussed.
    [DOUBLEPOST=1457974845,1457973356][/DOUBLEPOST]
    Yeah this is why warpgate networks by a faction are an exception, not the rule. Same with more than just a homebase station.
    Currently it is way easier for 1 person to tear down 5+ peoples work while they are offline, so starmade encourages and pushes all players towards the "why bother" mentality which can be either good or bad in peoples mentality.

    Even after you add fauna and passive resource generation (and fleet cargo mechanics), it won't be able to overcome this innate push to the "why bother" with all of these new features that the Schine team has slaved over.

    This may be a pessimistic view to some people, but is also a realist.
    Attack is, and will continue to be, stronger than defense. The attacker can scout the defenses, decide what they need to bring, and how to attack.
    Not to mention that player ships have the advantage of using the ESSENTIAL defensive effects. Large drones (like 30k mass and up) work until they wander off, and stations... cant dodge, cant have weapons unless you mount turrets, and cant have any defensive effects to counter the fact that they are immobile paper bastions, even if controlled by a player.

    This is a good discussion, lets talk a-bit about this. Anything I missed? Anything I am wrong about?
    Sure, that sounds interesting. Yay for double-post auto-merge!


    Drones wandering off should, hopefully, be a thing of the past soon enough, what with fleet controls becoming part of the game. Other than that, the issues you bring up are all too real.

    The no-weapons part goes for capital ships too, in a way. Weapons are big, static things pointing forwards. Where in most sci-fi two entities, be they ship or station, can park next to one another and start exchanging broadsides, we still have to point our three-hundred-meter capitals directly at one another if we want to fight. Some mechanic to fire weapons independently of the main body of the ship, possibly through turrets, would be hugely beneficial in this regard. It might boost performance, too, if capital ships don't go strafing about the place whenever they battle.

    Sometimes I wonder if the true solution to stations has been staring us in the face all along. In real life, what's always been the advantage of static things over mobile things? Big, bulky stuff that's sturdy and/or powerful but completely impractical to carry around. So, some highly powerful but ridiculously massive variants of shields/weapons/generators might be just what will work.

    Also, are you sure defensive effects can't be used? Logic can activate them, last I checked.
     
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    Master_Artificer

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    I do appreciate that someone else favors renewable fuel, dealt with in terms of production capacity rather than raw quantity. "I don't want to grind for fuel" pops up far too often when it's being discussed.
    [DOUBLEPOST=1457974845,1457973356][/DOUBLEPOST]
    Sure, that sounds interesting. Yay for double-post auto-merge!

    Drones wandering off should, hopefully, be a thing of the past soon enough, what with fleet controls becoming part of the game. Other than that, the issues you bring up are all too real.

    The no-weapons part goes for capital ships too, in a way. Weapons are big, static things pointing forwards. Where in most sci-fi two entities, be they ship or station, can park next to one another and start exchanging broadsides, we still have to point our three-hundred-meter capitals directly at one another if we want to fight. Some mechanic to fire weapons independently of the main body of the ship, possibly through turrets, would be hugely beneficial in this regard. It might boost performance, too, if capital ships don't go strafing about the place whenever they battle.

    Sometimes I wonder if the true solution to stations has been staring us in the face all along. In real life, what's always been the advantage of static things over mobile things? Big, bulky stuff that's sturdy and/or powerful but completely impractical to carry around. So, some highly powerful but ridiculously massive variants of shields/weapons/generators might be just what will work.

    Also, are you sure defensive effects can't be used? Logic can activate them, last I checked.
    Logic can only activate boost passives. Those would work great on a station.

    Yeah the drones wandering off thing is you warp in facing a side, they all see you and accelerate to you, then you jump out and they just kinda... drift away.
    Hopefully now this fleets thing fixes that!
     
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    lupoCani

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    Oh dear. Here I was thinking if it worked on some passives, it would work on all. Oh well, add it to the list of why stations are useless.
     

    Keptick

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    I can say with certitude that there are things planned for ressource gathering (the static/passive type), and that upkeep and defense of those infrastructure will DEFINITELY be a thing. Basically making the focus of stations to collect and process certain ressources, and making it so that you can't do it on the HB (nothing set in stone yet afaik). I can't really talk about it because NDA, but just know that I'm really excited with what the future holds. And that's coming from someone that's been pushing for vulnerable infrastructure and things to boost player interactions for over a year.
     
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    Master_Artificer

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    I can say with certitude that there are things planned for ressource gathering (the static/passive type), and that upkeep and defense of those infrastructure will DEFINITELY be a thing. Basically making the focus of stations to collect and process certain ressources, and making it so that you can't do it on the HB (nothing set in stone yet afaik). I can't really talk about it because NDA, but just know that I'm really excited with what the future holds. And that's coming from someone that's been pushing for vulnerable infrastructure and things to boost player interactions for over a year.
    But if someone hiding in a homebase all day who comes out when your faction is offline to destroy your stuff because it currently is so easy to do, why should I use this system? If their are also simutanius changes to assist in defending assets, then great! If its just another feature without that change, then it might end up causing more headaches than it is worth. Sure the single player faction without any notoriety will probably be unaffected, but a big faction? Their will be conflict, but not good conflict, just conflict to cause headaches by doing "grinding" to find and kill their resource structures when they are offline. Traps and ambushes work once, and are expensive and don't always work (and cost a lot).

    I want to build big starforts, but currently they are more of pinatas, they currently always weaker than ships of current size (even though they don't need to have mass devoted to thrusters and stuff) and the player can always bring a jammed/cloaked ship or something that is bigger than the starfort once they know of its size.
     
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    Id be happy if all of these suggestions that involve buffs or debuffs be options in the configs.. iv seen a lot of suggestions about homebases, and stations in general. but without real world tests with all these options , its just speculation.. and it should be to a server owners taste..survival pve/pvp mix server with a lot of casual new players, vrs a hardcore pvp server where people want to pewpew
     
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    Keptick

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    But if someone hiding in a homebase all day who comes out when your faction is offline to destroy your stuff because it currently is so easy to do, why should I use this system? If their are also simutanius changes to assist in defending assets, then great! If its just another feature without that change, then it might end up causing more headaches than it is worth. Sure the single player faction without any notoriety will probably be unaffected, but a big faction? Their will be conflict, but not good conflict, just conflict to cause headaches by doing "grinding" to find and kill their resource structures when they are offline. Traps and ambushes work once, and are expensive and don't always work (and cost a lot).

    I want to build big starforts, but currently they are more of pinatas, they currently always weaker than ships of current size (even though they don't need to have mass devoted to thrusters and stuff) and the player can always bring a jammed/cloaked ship or something that is bigger than the starfort once they know of its size.
    Obviously that's assuming turret and fleet AI would be fixed to work properly, so you could defend yo shietz. One of the points of fleets is to do just that! I'm assuming also stations bonuses or other similar stuff would be added to make them less squishy.

    You can also not be an cowardly asshole that attacks when the enemy is offline, but I guess that's hard to enforce :p
     

    Master_Artificer

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    Obviously that's assuming turret and fleet AI would be fixed to work properly, so you could defend yo shietz. One of the points of fleets is to do just that! I'm assuming also stations bonuses or other similar stuff would be added to make them less squishy.

    You can also not be an cowardly asshole that attacks when the enemy is offline, but I guess that's hard to enforce :p
    I have experience in the matter having it done to me when I was in EH, doing it to TGT before they broke up, and having it done to me while I was in Thryn on the SS server.
    Its basically the starmade equivilant of guerrilla warfare.

    One bonus that I had originally dismissed but am looking back at is removing the power softcap on stations (by giving them a new curve). That would be a massive buff but might make them dangerous finally.
     
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    I have experience in the matter having it done to me when I was in EH, doing it to TGT before they broke up, and having it done to me while I was in Thryn on the SS server.
    Its basically the starmade equivilant of guerrilla warfare.

    One bonus that I had originally dismissed but am looking back at is removing the power softcap on stations (by giving them a new curve). That would be a massive buff but might make them dangerous finally.
    Lifting the softcap for stations could be an extremely elegant solution, or part of one. I'm hoping as well though that Keptic's post means that some kind of direct buff for stations is in the works. Lifting the cap would go a long ways but then without buffs stations would have to become immense to truly take advantage of that. At that point we encounter the strong potential for performance issues at least for many users. Giving stations actual buffs would allow more hardening with less processor.

    I agree with what seems to be the general consensus that a major inhibitor of outlying, vulnerable infrastructure is the weakness of stations. Is it possible though that what we are classifying as a cause is actually an effect of invulnerable infrastructure? Could forcing infrastructure off of the invulnerable stations would help correct the problem of stations being relatively weak? Consider; the weakness is relative to the strength of large ships. If, in order to produce such ships in the first place required your opponent to also have such exposed infrastructure, would he even be able to mount such an offensive against your facilities in the first place? Would you allow him the infrastructure & supply lines to do so? I don't know for certain, but it seems that non-HB station weakness may actually be a side effect of the current invulnerable infrastructure for fielding mega-ships.

    Would changing the thrust recipe to require a real resource and increasing its cost help at all? This would improve the value of stations over ships anyway. Perhaps this and other tweaks to simply make ships more expensive and resource intensive than stations would go a ways to balancing. Of course, fuel could do exactly that especially if stations are assumed to use solar or other alternative power sources and not consume fuel. Then even relatively weak stations would seem an economical option for controlling regions because they'd be so much cheaper than deploying a fleet to the same location "just in case.

    At any rate, I'm under the impression that lifting the aegis from all but the most basic infrastructure and requiring large ships or fleets to depend on such vulnerable infrastructure could actually auto-correct a lot of the imbalances we deal with in multi. The enemy Titan that wrecked your forward shipyard won't even be able launch tomorrow if your allies take out it's fuel depot and refinery. It'll be a sitting duck, incapable of running roughshod over every faction unless they utterly fail to fight back against its supporting infrastructure. Suddenly factions can't be superpowers unless they're super good at defensive micro and hide-and-seek because anyone getting rowdy will be advertising to pirates and opportunists that they have delicious infrastructure and supply routes for the plundering.
     

    nightrune

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    There's a number of ideas in here that I'd love to comment on. So here comes a large jumble of thoughts. First right now bases are not strategic like they way they should be, but I do it anyway on my own server since I like having different places for different functions. They are more fun to design that way as well. Specifically I moved my shipyards off to a station from my own home base planet.

    Comment one, I don't like the idea of grinding for fuel, but I've been considering other ways to accomplish what fuel might in a more abstract less grindy way. The term "potential agency" really got me thinking. This is really the key.


    I think the key here is faction points. They are abstract and really represent strength, but what if they essentially represented strength as materials and supply lines as well. I'm thinking it costs faction points to have ships outside your own territory. Think of this as when inside your own territory fuel is free, supply lines are cheap and you can easily refuel, but leave your own territory and it costs based on the size and power of the ship. If you combine this with ways to increase faction point gain on planets and stations then you now have strategic targets to aim at to reduce your opponents potential agency. You also need to scout and find those stations. I becomes easier to defend as you haven't had to spend your faction points defending (unless they win), and the attacker now has to make a good choice on what they attack.

    The only problem I forsee is this doesn't specifically give you a reason to expand unless you want to eliminate other players. We still need better reasons to go explore and mine and build since there is no real end goal. End tier missions with epicly cool blocks would be awesome, resource scarcity, fauna, and others could be more reasons.
     
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    Comment one, I don't like the idea of grinding for fuel, but I've been considering other ways to accomplish what fuel might in a more abstract less grindy way. The term "potential agency" really got me thinking. This is really the key.
    I'm deeply opposed to grinding for fuel as well. Note that we have passive resource acquisition incoming with mining fleets, so acquiring fuel will already NOT be a grind. As I noted, fuel can be implemented as a regulatory system without any grind at all - the only thing it needs to demand is infrastructure. Refineries, depots, fueling stations, whatever. Players can get fuel passively as long as they have the infrastructure. The infrastructure could even be a fuel condenser that has to be built in nebulae and passively generates fuel... but can be assaulted.

    Your suggestion is a fantastic solution as well. And I think that it would provide motivation for even small factions to expand, if FP producing facilities could only be created in specific kinds of places. Planets for instance. Or nebulae. If one's home system has only 2 planets generating FP, and one wants to field a planet-eating miner that burns through FP while abroad cracking planets, there would be pressing cause to claim additional planets and farm them for FP.

    Incidentally, your concept would solve the issue of planets being pointless. If claimed planets generated FP, and FP fueled ships, planets would be like big old balls of deep-fried gold.

    I think you should draft a formal suggestion about that. It was a brilliant piece of brainstorming.
     

    nightrune

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    I think you should draft a formal suggestion about that. It was a brilliant piece of brainstorming.
    Thank you! I think it still needs some work though. It really needs brain storming....

    I had another idea while responding to this.. This following idea might be too much like fuel, but its inheriently abstract.

    What if you had to physically store Faction Points. Specifically things like food stores, fuel, oxygen. All abstracted away in to faction points. These can then be stored into specific blocks (Tanks, Silos, Specific warehouses.) Its essentially a specific faction block. So you have things that increase your regen like shields and power, but also something that stores FP, but on a galactic scale.
    Physically taking those locations would prove to be immensely valuable. This allows farms, fauna, and other things to passively add to the regen.

    I do think I may have to write this up...
     
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    Agree 100% invulnerable bases make all the multiplayer scene useless.
    Also, good job on the faction point block idea, I would like to see something like that in the game!
     
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    So in order to invigorate MP, we need to compel vulnerable outlying infrastructure. In a way that actually matters for players. I understand that there is a lot of opposition to "fuel" "food" and other concrete consumables. I really like nightrune's idea to make FP a necessary consumable and allow FP generation from outlying, vulnerable infrastructure. I love it because it's simple, it sounds reasonable to code, and seems like it would be intuitive to learn for new players.

    What other possible routes (excluding anything that results in grind) could be taken, in Starmade, to legitimately motivate players to spread out, claim planets, and spawn additional stations in order to achieve their full agency?
     

    Lukwan

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    I have scoured various threads on this subject and there are two elements that have great potential for encouraging exploration/expansion.

    1) Faction points.

    2) NPC crew.

    Both of these things could be used to to entice people away from their HB. nightrune has some interesting ideas about FP that show promise.

    This thread has a similar theme and includes some good discussions.

    Incentives to Expansion (Anti-Turtling)

    The key would be to have benefits that make the exposure worthwhile but not so powerful that they will lead to snowballing.
     
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