Incentives to Expansion (Anti-Turtling)

[Batavium]

1 simple solution to get people out of homebases on servers where this is a must because of reasons, is a simple true/false options in server config which can disable homebases.

problem solved, everyone can go pvp....

Pvp doesn't mean you totally need to wipe out the other person. The Home Base is needed so you can sleep. You also need a safe place to store your items, build, replace or repair ships.

I don't really understand the whole anti-turtle discussion. I am a pvp player i prey on others. But ultimately it are my fellow players that decide how vulnerable they expose them self's to me or other players. There is nothing wrong with staying in your Home Base if you choose to do so. Ultimately anyone needs to go out and get a resource of some kind. And then your exposed to the harshness of space.

I will laugh myself silly if i find people out in the open. I will waste whole bases if they are not set to Home Base. I will ignore any cries about it nor do i need a reason to attack. I simple attack anything that i can attack. People either learn from that and build a proper Home Base or they rage and sometimes quit StarMade all together. This game is harsh, unforgiving and not everyone's cup of tea. If you use your head then the danger from others is minimal but never completely zero.

I always chant on every server i play USE a Home Base and DOCK your ships. Don't poke your head out when i visit or ill shoot it! And there is always someone out there to shoot always...

 

[Drakkart]

1 simple solution to get people out of homebases on servers where this is a must because of reasons, is a simple true/false options in server config which can disable homebases.

problem solved, everyone can go pvp....

That is a nightmare, not a solution. forcing people to do stuff in a game is like labor work in peoples spare time.
Again this entire "problem" only consists because right now there is nothing else to do than build big and bigger And as resources still matter, why should someone with just a little bit of time available per week risc their new shiny ships?
What the devs could introduce is like giving every player a goodie bag and if you are offline for longer then this goodie bag fills up to speed up you process when you come online later. Though starmade right now is not so time intense because of mining or resources, it is time intense because building something good requires a lot of time...

What this game desperatly needs is build support to speed up building.
We need templates saving along with docked entities at every rotation (still bugged) and a folder structure to organize stuff the way we need. So creating folders naming them arranging them so we can organize our hundreds of templates to finally speed up the building process. Also the anchor point on templates must be handled differently. This just building long trouts to a position to make the template appear where we need it in the correct orientation is tedious at least. This is where i see the biggest potential for the game to finally lift off making building faster and more fun so people build more because they enjoy it and thus have also stuff laying around worth wrecking kinda the fastest way of taking the "i could loose my precious" out of even more casual players.

 

[kurosawa]

...

I agree 110% with that you say.

The suggestion is simply the "evil" logical solutions to give to people, that wants to force others out of there HB. It would work at a cost .
My guess is no one would play on such a server, not even the so called pvp's that want to attack people that are eater defenseless or do not want pvp.

Maybe im just tired of listning to people go on and on about how so people want to attack other peoples HB

That is a nightmare, not a solution. forcing people to do stuff in a game is like labor work in peoples spare time.
Again this entire "problem" only consists because right now there is nothing else to do than build big and bigger And as resources still matter, why should someone with just a little bit of time available per week risc their new shiny ships?
What the devs could introduce is like giving every player a goodie bag and if you are offline for longer then this goodie bag fills up to speed up you process when you come online later. Though starmade right now is not so time intense because of mining or resources, it is time intense because building something good requires a lot of time...

Hey Drakkart

Seen a fair amount of your youtube guides, thanks for those

Mining in Starmade suck atm and is extremly boring to me anyway, it's to hard and time consuming to find the right rocks and frustrating to zoom around the belts hoping to finde something.
It would be better to have larger asteroids cluster you could see and select in the map then our current belts.
Then there is the problem with some asteroids being close to the sun which is always fun..

What this game desperatly needs is build support to speed up building.
We need templates saving along with docked entities at every rotation (still bugged) and a folder structure to organize stuff the way we need. So creating folders naming them arranging them so we can organize our hundreds of templates to finally speed up the building process. Also the anchor point on templates must be handled differently. This just building long trouts to a position to make the template appear where we need it in the correct orientation is tedious at least. This is where i see the biggest potential for the game to finally lift off making building faster and more fun so people build more because they enjoy it and thus have also stuff laying around worth wrecking kinda the fastest way of taking the "i could loose my precious" out of even more casual players.

I assume all these things have been suggested before, but would you mind if i create a new post in suggestings with this quoted part?

 

[Drakkart]

I agree 110% with that you say.

The suggestion is simply the "evil" logical solutions to give to people, that wants to force others out of there HB. It would work at a cost .
My guess is no one would play on such a server, not even the so called pvp's that want to attack people that are eater defenseless or do not want pvp.

Maybe im just tired of listning to people go on and on about how so people want to attack other peoples HB

I feel you brother. The discussion is lengthy and ... Also totally see where people come from but most never had the task of making a game fun to play.

Hey Drakkart

Seen a fair amount of your youtube guides, thanks for those

Thank you ; ). i assume they helped because of you thanking me for them ?

Mining in Starmade suck atm and is extremly boring to me anyway, it's to hard and time consuming to find the right rocks and frustrating to zoom around the belts hoping to finde something.
It would be better to have larger asteroids cluster you could see and select in the map then our current belts.
Then there is the problem with some asteroids being close to the sun which is always fun..

I assume all these things have been suggested before, but would you mind if i create a new post in suggestings with this quoted part?

Mining will also see changes happening to it maybe even to a point where it is fully automated for it's dull time consuming nature... on the other hand once you have build a decent mining ship it is a piece of cake... 20 minutes and your factories have again material to autoprocess for hours... mining itself is not really bad you just need to get some decent equipment to make it a quick job...

the crafting is something they need to reqork indeed for it works but is totally unintuitive... though that system might be around for quite some more time... more important would be to allow all of it as well on ships... but other issue...

Fell free to resuggest this stuff my suggestions might be buried for quite a while. A reference would be cool sure but if you'd just get it implemented or on their "ok yes we got it it has to happen for it would help solve a few problems in it's tail..." i'd be pleased as well ; )

 

[MacThule]

1 simple solution to get people out of homebases on servers where this is a must because of reasons, is a simple true/false options in server config which can disable homebases.

problem solved, everyone can go pvp....

This used to be a non-starter, but with the recent addition of Fog of War, it may actually be a viable option. Without a HB on the diplomacy screen to announce one's location, without permanent territory where hunters can always find you on the map, vulnerable bases are no longer just dangling bait for trolls and wreckers.

With even a slight edge - of some kind - for stations over ships, it could be downright sporting.

 

[kurosawa]

Drakkart, My current mining ship can munch an asteroid in a few seconds, but i really would like to know how you can fill your factories so they run for hours in just 20 min starting from a HB?

I assume by factories you mean many basic,standard.adv factories with enhancers and not just a single factory block

MacThule, it would work in aa kind of sudden death/instagib way

 

[Drakkart]

Drakkart, My current mining ship can munch an asteroid in a few seconds, but i really would like to know how you can fill your factories so they run for hours in just 20 min starting from a HB?

I assume by factories you mean many basic,standard.adv factories with enhancers and not just a single factory block

MacThule, it would work in aa kind of sudden death/instagib way

Actually i keep my refining and factory setups pretty small and tidy in order to generate a cheap easily fillable blueprint. So the refineries thogh workng parallel require some time to work through a batch.

 

[Lukwan]

What this game desperatly needs is build support to speed up building.
We need templates saving along with docked entities at every rotation (still bugged) and a folder structure to organize stuff the way we need. So creating folders naming them arranging them so we can organize our hundreds of templates to finally speed up the building process. Also the anchor point on templates must be handled differently. This just building long trouts to a position to make the template appear where we need it in the correct orientation is tedious at least. This is where i see the biggest potential for the game to finally lift off making building faster and more fun so people build more because they enjoy it and thus have also stuff laying around worth wrecking kinda the fastest way of taking the "i could loose my precious" out of even more casual players.

Thanks Drakkart, I could not agree more. Best of all: this is all carrot. Everyone would stand to benefit from a streamlined build process, PvPers and builders alike (and all new SM players). I built a city in MC using world edit that I could never have done in the vanilla game. We need more geometric shapes in the build-helper and template improvements. I am spending my time on the forums for this very reason, in the hopes that it will pay off down the road when more polish is put on the advanced build-mode.

I assume all these things have been suggested before, but would you mind if i create a new post in suggestings with this quoted part?

[Here are my favorites]

The fix for broken copy/paste: add a base point!

Read by Council - Saveable Templates for Storage Pulls

blueprint and template folders

Recognized - Search bar for templates and uploading to catalog.

 

[kurosawa]

Actually i keep my refining and factory setups pretty small and tidy in order to generate a cheap easily fillable blueprint. So the refineries thogh workng parallel require some time to work through a batch.

I often make automated factories so you just have to start 1 to get for instant advanced armor, i also have a tendency to start over so the factories are rarely fully operational But my current factory has 3 factory floors with 22 factories each (basic, std, adv), each factory in turn has 500 enhanchers and some storage.

there are always 2 refineries usually with between 500-1000 enhanchers, it depends on how they will fit in to the main factory layout

 

[MacThule]

I've thought for a while that the biggest way to encourage/force expansion (without a carrot or stick) is look at making certain systems mutually incompatible with each other (completely the opposite direction of those who want 1 giant all-in-one mega-ships with factories, shipyards, etc that they never need to leave).

You can't turtle if you can't have everything in one spot.

So maybe the energy & waste put off by factories makes it impossible for undeathinators to operate on the same entity. Perhaps jumpgates cause space-time disruptions that make the entity they're on uninhabitable to life (no NPCs on jumpgate entities) or just prevented shipyards from working on the same entity.

Then factions must make a hard choice about whether their HB is focused on personnel (undeathinator, medical, docking, etc), industry, or tying together an interstellar empire with a cluster of large jumpgates. Auxiliary stations would NEED to be established then to perform the other necessary functions. Then they'd need to be defended, by both station defenses and patrolling fleets. Smart players would insist upon redundancy in non-HB stations because we know they could be destroyed, so the idea of putting all your eggs into one mega-factory station would be ensuring your manufacturing capabilities would suffer interruptions, while setting up 3-4 more modest but still effective manufacturing stations in far-flung positions in and around your territory would give you a better chance of not losing them all at once in a war.

Simply inhibiting a HB from doing it all while still allowing it to be an invulnerable stronghold where factions can park, heal, re-spawn, and control their fleets would create reasons for expansion without penalizing anyone.

Even simpler - A mass or systems limit could even be set for HBs - the powerful invulnerability field that makes them invincible might only be able to protect a rather small structure. Then HBs could still "do it all" but only on much smaller scales, so if you wanted more than a tiny, lifeline manufacturing capability you would have to go set up additional facilities.

 

[kurosawa]

are you referring to me as having a mega factory ?

 

[MacThule]

are you referring to me as having a mega factory ?

Maybe...

Actually my old main basic factory churns out 50K/turn... so no . Since the shop logic update though, I've been gradually drifting towards more smaller, automated production lines linked directly to the shop that just run while I do other things around base. It works for me because I tend to base near spawn, so even when I'm offline I get some foot traffic that gives me additional production over time!

 

[Lukwan]

Even simpler - A mass or systems limit could even be set for HBs - the powerful invulnerability field that makes them invincible might only be able to protect a rather small structure. Then HBs could still "do it all" but only on much smaller scales, so if you wanted more than a tiny, lifeline manufacturing capability you would have to go set up additional facilities.

I think I prefer this option because it is more compatible with casual players. Otherwise, I like this line of reasoning for a PvP, RTS mechanic. Having assets spread out could lead to a strategic targeting of certain enemy installations. This leads to depth, not just mindless expansionism.

 

[MacThule]

I think I prefer this option because it is more compatible with casual players. Otherwise, I like this line of reasoning for a PvP, RTS mechanic. Having assets spread out could lead to a strategic targeting of certain enemy installations. This leads to depth, not just mindless expansionism.

This is my favorite as well. Simple and elegant, no carrots, no sticks, just a partial nerf to invulnerability. Especially with a server-adjustable limit. A low limit would mean a universe where homebases are basically small defensive bases with re-spawns, a tiny emergency factory line, and 2-3 docks for the team's best capital ships. A high limit could be almost unlimited and would result in universes much like they are now.

I think that infrastructure (installations with strategic value) that can be targeted to hurt an enemy is important to adding sport to Starmade, and can be done without requiring full kills. This harkens back a bit to the brainstorming in this old thread.

 

[kurosawa]

Maybe...
....

I think my factory is around 100x100x50, compared to real factories that is quite small actually

OT:
I would prefer no changes at all to home bases. They work just fine and as they should, which is allowing players to build what ever they want with out going 10km in the hamster wheel every 2nd block.

Limiting the size of HB's will cause more pvp for a brief period of time, then people will begin to use docked ships for storage and HB protection while they roam the galaxy burning everything. After some time, a percentage of the player base will grow tired of starting over every day and leave the game, so we left with even less players.

This can already be seen in how people pray on new people around 2,2,2

It all comes down to assholes, we all have one... eeeh i mean opinions, we all have one
[doublepost=1479623753,1479623419][/doublepost]If i was playing on such a server i would turtle up my stuff for sure and use deploy-able stations as temporary bases where i could strike out at anyone and everyone in simple/cheap powerful block ships.

 

[kurosawa]

@MacThule, just had time to read the thread you linked there are good ideas both here and in the linked threat, my biggest concern is that it will become tedious and boring fast if you have to maintain a bunch of silly gauges.

 

[StarWars1981]

This is my favorite as well. Simple and elegant, no carrots, no sticks, just a partial nerf to invulnerability. Especially with a server-adjustable limit. A low limit would mean a universe where homebases are basically small defensive bases with re-spawns, a tiny emergency factory line, and 2-3 docks for the team's best capital ships. A high limit could be almost unlimited and would result in universes much like they are now.

I think that infrastructure (installations with strategic value) that can be targeted to hurt an enemy is important to adding sport to Starmade, and can be done without requiring full kills. This harkens back a bit to the brainstorming in this old thread.

As to that thread, I had an idea regarding the FP ideas in that thread. Nice link, btw, very much similar topic.

So, FP cost to run fleets makes sense, and changing it based on distance to friendly stations or other bases would be worthwhile. Outside territory, cost goes up more and faster than inside faction territory. To the point where leaving camper fleets outside your territory will not be a good option.
Second, holding territory and having online players can give FP, but I think stations should give FP. In a function based on mass/blocks, having more stations of 10K blocks apiece (or whatever, arbitrary number) gives more FP than one supermassive station, and stations beneath a respectable level of mass or blocks give nothing (or almost nothing). Controlling the territory gives enough FP (as in one system's worth of territory) to maintain a 1 person, active faction with a HB. However, more stations allow the supporting of active fleets outside the HB's sectors.

Now stations become assets, and rather than turn one into stardust the minute it's spotted, it may now be significantly more economical (i.e. pay for the expense of running a fleet out and taking territory) to launch boarding operations (NPCs, anyone?) and capture it intact. So we need capture options, cause instantaneous decay is annoying. Perhaps friendly NPCs on a station mean it's controlled by you, until they're all eliminated and the new guy brings his own in? The more stations you have, the better off you are, and if fleets are eventually capable of docking at a station (following previously defined docking patterns, ones that the player flies first. Perhaps saved to the station and ship blueprints? So that if dealing with a station of this type, with the Unmodified flag on it, dock in this fashion on XYZ dockers?), then you might even add shipyards for repair and upkeep, and defenses/factories/infrastructure! etc. to make use of.

Also, FP cost for running fleets should depend upon mass. Million-mass titans in fleets are expensive toys to move outside their stations' systems, else they could easily burn down multiple stations across faction territory - but with the new Fog of War mechanic, that might not be immediately evident that there are stations anywhere. I suspect chain-drive "probes" are going to start appearing in major factions.

 

[MacThule]

people will begin to use docked ships for storage and HB protection

If HB protection is limited by mass, that mass limit can be extended to docked entities on a first come first serve basis. Pilots can easily receive a message if an entity they just docked is not granted invulnerability.

Any obstacle can be overcome, it's only a matter of the work required to do so compared to the value of doing so.

my biggest concern is that it will become tedious and boring fast if you have to maintain a bunch of silly gauges.

This is a very valid concern, but a key part of this game's appeal is actually its complexity. That said, I prefer the simplest solution or set of solutions for exactly the reason you bring up. All we do in here is brainstorm, then the devs come through and cherry-pick stuff and analyse whether it fits their vision of the game and wrangle with the brass tacks of implementation. I've seen many ideas that were extensively and repeatedly discussed in forum appear in the game, though rarely in exactly the way expected. So I just keep brainstorming. I don't assume every idea will or should be used, even of the very good ideas.

As far as HB size goes; I really don't believe that setting a size limit on Total Invulnerability is unreasonable, especially when an invulnerable HB can easily control an area 27 sectors in volume with deadly force. It would also go a ways to curing the turtle epidemic because as long as you can have it ALL in total invulnerability, it will always take a lot of contrived, game-bending carrots and sticks to make it worthwhile to do otherwise. Limiting invulnerability in some way (not necessarily mass) seems an elegant solution. As mentioned, it can be server adjustable. It could be set to near unlimited and players will continue to play as they do - turtling in their deluxe super-bases. If it is small, it will still allow players to have a cozy little base that keeps them from becoming space hobos just because they lose a few battles. If they don't want the stress of expanding, it will actually create incentive to trade and cooperate with allies more to overcome the limits. Specializing as part of a team will become worth considering, instead of simply doing it all yourself and being an island (with a chatroom).

Of course this is really only relevant to multiplayer, so any player in SP mode could easily have a checkbox for unlimited HB just like they already do for creative mode. That could even be the default in SP. It can be implemented to have zero impact on players who "just want to build," because even if they do decide to go MP they can play on servers with extremely generous limits and they will almost never notice the change unless their main goal is to crash the server with the size of their creations (and they're the ones ruining it for the rest of us anyway ;-)).
[doublepost=1479707241,1479705985][/doublepost]

As to that thread, I had an idea regarding the FP ideas in that thread. Nice link, btw, very much similar topic.

Thanks! The topic is similar because it's a core issue that keeps coming up for us. Again, and again and again. Often it is addressed in parts, people gripe about titans and no action, people wonder why there's no interaction... but it's one picture, and in my opinion it all comes down to ending permanent, infinite invulnerability.

Limited invulnerability - sure.
Buffs - sure.
Temporary infinite invulnerability even - maybe in certain cases....

Permanent, Infinite invulnerability though - you can't lose anything ever as long as you never leave home, so by the rules of this game the winner is he who interacts as little as possible. If you never leave HB, you never lose anything. You just hunker in static plenitude. Chatting. It barely even qualifies as a "game" if there is no risk of loss though, which can lead to boredom.

 

[Scypio]

If HB protection is limited by mass, that mass limit can be extended to docked entities on a first come first serve basis. Pilots can easily receive a message if an entity they just docked is not granted invulnerability.

Then dock a non factionned ship to the public usd on the HB to break this limit and destroy it ? Then i'm forced to not place any public usd on my station because someone could use it at his own advantage ?

HB aren't a problem if we can just ignore them like why can we claim the system from a HB ? I'm going again to my last idea in this thread but i don't see something better than this in my mind. If HB cannot claim the sector then there will be fight for the station claiming that system. Just because we can a pain in the ass for the guy we don't like.

 

[KillaKrazy]

Honestly, this anti-HB rhetoric is getting old. The current HB system is fine the way it is, if you really want to have your stuff destroyed every night you can go play Ark. Changing the way HB's work will not stop the "turtling" that is going on in servers. The devs need to come out with a solution that gives the players reason to build additional bases and claim more territory, because currently there is no reason to. A quick list of reasons that make people turtle;
-Additional systems cost factions FP.
-Why claim more space when every system contains just about every resource in the game.
-There are not enough players to invite into different factions to be able to even claim territory.
-Most factions are 1 player factions as it is just easier to have your own faction.
-The game offers 0 incentive to join a faction, other than dealing with drama and bs.
-Even if you got rid of HB protection, any player with half a brain would just build his base in the void away from any claimed space.

In the end, it would not change the current status quo. Changing HB's will not stop this made up issue that some people think is rampant. If you really want to see people expand in the universes then you need to hound the devs into giving us meaningful updates that provide incentives.