How I feel (and want) salvage to work

[FunnyBunny14]

I like the idea of virtual damage. But I feel that a of of other things don't work well (the pulsing of the salvage beam).

Here's how I feel it should work:

1. No pulsing of the beam itself, just a constant stream that can be switched off any time.
2. The damage that has to be done depends on the hp of the block.
3. The pulsing will remain, but rather in the way the personal power supply works: every so often the salvage cannon will do virtual damage to the block, but without numbers appearing.
4. The pulsing delay will be constant. Every time it "pulses", it will do one figure of virtual damage.
5. The delay will be like the reload for the block config.
6. The virtual damage dealt increases linearly for the amount of blocks in an array.
7. The virtual damage dealt will count as damage for the block config.
8. The virtual damage won't actually damage the block itself.

Optional:

1. An overlay texture to indicate how far the block has been salvaged.
2. The blocks won't remember the state forever. Instead it will delete that value after a certain period of time to reduce lag.

What this does:

• It makes salvaging fun and different.
• The slave effects will now work and have purposes. The pulse, for example, will be used a lot to get a compact array for salvaging stations and ships. The cannon will be uses as slave effect for salvaging terrain, and tiny salvage-cannon combos will be used for salvaging system blocks.
• Removes the annoying waiting time for the salvage to switch off.
• More things???

 

[Malacodor]

the annoying waiting time for the salvage to switch off.

This is the only problem I have with the new salvaging mechanics, the rest is fine. It's really annoying when the game does the opposite of what I want, it feels like Windows.

 

[Megacrafter127]

it feels like Windows.

Why I forbid windows to do anything without asking. And then it tells me that would be a security issue…

 

[FunnyBunny14]

This is the only problem I have with the new salvaging mechanics, the rest is fine. It's really annoying when the game does the opposite of what I want, it feels like Windows.

The problem is that the salvage-cannon combo is the only one that's going to be used now due to the pulsing of things. The rest might as well be non-existent. And even if the pulsing gets changed, the cannon is definitely going to be used way more often than the other combinations. I really want to encourage variety, and this current system doesn't seem to me like the way to do it.

 

[Neon_42]

why do you want to encourage variety in mining? Mining is a one dimensional task. Hit blocks-> Get resources-> Craft->Build. Once the most efficient way of gathering resources is found out that is the only one that will be used. To be blunt, diversified mining is dumb. I want to play the rest of the game not think about gathering resources all the time.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

why do you want to encourage variety in mining? Mining is a one dimensional task. Hit blocks-> Get resources-> Craft->Build. Once the most efficient way of gathering resources is found out that is the only one that will be used. To be blunt, diversified mining is dumb. I want to play the rest of the game not think about gathering resources all the time.

But it is a very important, if not the most important, aspect of the game. Without mining there are no ships, and without ships there is no starmade. Once you get that, you'll understand why I'm trying to make it more diverse.

Don't underestimate the time people have to put into salvaging. I don't think they just want to be building the same ship in the same way over and over again just because "nobody wants to think about gathering resources all the time".

Salvaging is the first thing new players will do. We owe it to them to make it is fun as possible, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Neon_42]

But it is a very important, if not the most important, aspect of the game. Without mining there are no ships, and without ships there is no starmade. Once you get that, you'll understand why I'm trying to make it more diverse.

Don't underestimate the time people have to put into salvaging. I don't think they just want to be building the same ship in the same way over and over again just because "nobody wants to think about gathering resources all the time".

Salvaging is the first thing new players will do. We owe it to them to make it is fun as possible, wouldn't you agree?

No, I get it perfectly. It is you who does not understand. Mining is not the biggest/most important part of this game, building ships and stations is. You are correct that mining is the first thing players do, and that it is the most basic task players must undertake . Mining will ALWAYS be one dimensional. Mine->Get blocks. You can't change that. You can muck up the first task such that it becomes complicated, long and boring and people stop playing. For example you can make one way more slower but more efficient, you can make another quick but results in less resources. For players that want large ships, they will go for the more efficient path and build larger arrays, but they will already have to be established to do so. Players who want to get established might go for the quick and dirty method, but it will still take them longer because it is less efficient. It still doesn't change mine= blocks. It is a necessary task and something that should be quick and fun. It was quick and fun, sort of. It still took days to build up a decent sized space station and ship. Of which I would argue that time should be shortened. Players don't want to mine for hours or days. Most players can't mine for hours or days. We have jobs and families and responsibilities. If you have all that free time ,great, but most players have actual lives. Players want to build and fight ships. If you're into long mining tasks go play minecraft and search for emeralds. Starmade is not for you.

 

[starhaiden]

emeralds are found under mountains in minecraft. I think there should be a ai that you can hire and it mines automatically for you but it is less efficient than a player.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

emeralds are found under mountains in minecraft. I think there should be a ai that you can hire and it mines automatically for you but it is less efficient than a player.

But... that's a story for another thread. How do you find my suggestion by the way?

 

[Neon_42]

But... that's a story for another thread. How do you find my suggestion by the way?

I find your suggestion to be terrible. It is ill thought out and doesn't address the original problem.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

I find your suggestion to be terrible. It is ill thought out and doesn't address the original problem.

Could you please explain it a bit better? What was the original peoblem according to you? And why is it ill thought out?

 

[Neon_42]

Could you please explain it a bit better? What was the original peoblem according to you? And why is it ill thought out?

First, read the above. If you don't understand what I have written above you won't understand what comes next. By our entire correspondence, I'd say you still don't understand that mining is a one dimensional activity no matter how you dress it up. You've stated in other threads that mining should be a diversified activity. It doesn't matter if it is diverse or not. MINING=RESOURCES! get this through your skull. One method will always be more efficient than the others. Thus players will always use that method. Your argument is akin to "that players's method is better than mine so I will change the rules so they can't and have to figure out some other way".

Secondly, you'd fix the pulsing block problem by pulsing damage? This is the same problem only disguised.

The pulsing will remain, but rather in the way the personal power supply works: every so often the salvage cannon will do virtual damage to the block, but without numbers appearing.

This is no different from the pulsing beam except that the visual counterpart is now constant.

Third, the problem is that mining is becoming increasingly inefficient. The time required to play this game is getting cumbersome. NOBODY WANTS TO SPEND DAYS/HOURS MINING! get this though your skull too. the point of this game is building ships and stations, then combating them. Look at lots of RTS's the economy is extremely simple but an important and fun part of the game. Starmade is not and RTS, but it could take a lesson and build a simple and fun mechanic.

Fourth, your proposed system will require adding more information to blocks and would require a significant amount of work on the devs part to just make it work and then balance it. You will have to somehow update every block on a planet/ asteroid to reset the damage done. The mechanic already exists and wasn't broken before. Even before we had linked modules it worked well. You are overcomplicating a simple mechanic. If it is not broke don't fix it.

You don't understand that complicating a simple mechanic causes the game to be bloated, you didn't solve your own stated problem, you don't consider time constraints when playing this game or the point of the game, you don't understand the effort required to write such a mechanic, so yes, your idea is ill formed.

As for a statement of the problem in my opinion, I think we should go back to only salvage beams, or increase the energy cost of beams+cannons. Thats it. Salvaging is way to complicated as it is. It was simple. Now it is cumbersome and bloated.

 

[Mr.Steam]

The salvage cannon located in our space suits currently does not pulse. I would think the same "technology" found in our personal salvagers would apply to ship based salvagers. I know that doesn't really matter as far as game play goes, but it would be nice to be consistent.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

The salvage cannon located in our space suits currently does not pulse. I would think the same "technology" found in our personal salvagers would apply to ship based salvagers. I know that doesn't really matter as far as game play goes, but it would be nice to be consistent.

So true! Which is why i said this:

• The pulsing will remain, but rather in the way the personal power supply works: every so often the salvage cannon will do virtual damage to the block, but without numbers appearing.

It's not just the visual effects that change, Neon_42 , it's the way it works. If you'd used the power supply gun before you would have realised that the power supply part of it pulses every second, but that the actual beam can be switched on and off at will, and you don't need to wait for a pulse to finish.

Spoiler: More stuff meant for neon_42

Time wise this won't matter at all (at least it shouldn't). Salvaging will be really simple (sort of) and fast (this is true though). You'll just need to make choices of whether you want a slow compact system, or a very large fast one. It might not be as fast as before, but then again, players could salvage entire planets with tiny ships (I am guilty of this, which is how I know that it wasn't working that well).

Fourth, your proposed system will require adding more information to blocks and would require a significant amount of work on the devs part to just make it work and then balance it. You will have to somehow update every block on a planet/ asteroid to reset the damage done. The mechanic already exists and wasn't broken before. Even before we had linked modules it worked well. You are overcomplicating a simple mechanic. If it is not broke don't fix it.

This was actually one of my concerns though. It might be possible, it might not (most likely not though). It just was something I was thinking about, and I thought it might be fun to have it like this.

One problem I have with just removing the pulsing effect is that the current system relies on it for it's buffs/nerfs. I realise that this won't work (thanks to neon_42, who didn't really say it in a nice tone, but dine, he helped).

Might I propose something else then. I like the way my suggestion would result in specialised salvage systems. Maybe it was a bit extreme, but I do believe that we need some customisation options. Otherwise we just go back to putting as many salvage modules in one array as possible, and that isn't fun.

Spoiler: My suggestion

The salvage damage will work in a similar way as the personal power supply beam, meaning that the virtual damage will pulse, rather than the actual beam itself, which then can be switched on and off at will. The period between the pulses will be a set amount of time, and rather than the current pulse with many small pulses in an actual pulse, rather have one pulse of damage and then the pause in between. So x amount damage, pause, x amount damage, pause, etc., etc.

And Neon_42 , please do go and try out the personal power supply beam to see what I am talking about. If you already have done so once before, good, then you already know. The heal beam works in the same way, so you will also know if you've tried that one before.

Tl;dr: Last part is the new suggestion, first part is some feedback to other people.[DOUBLEPOST=1416872981,1416870909][/DOUBLEPOST]What I've now come to want should actually be accomplishable by just changing some config values. I'll post the changed config whenever I finish it (which should be tomorrow).

 

[Jay_do]

What combos do we have with the Salvage beam anyway?

 

[Megacrafter127]

What combos do we have with the Salvage beam anyway?

Salvage as main and other weapons as slave. That's all 4 there are.

 

[Malacodor]

What combos do we have with the Salvage beam anyway?

Salvage: 2.5s Burst - 2.5 cooldown - 2.5s burst - 2.5s cooldown...
Salvage-Missile: Several beams in fake random directions; I consider this useless
Salvage-Beam: More range; basically useless, asteroids don't flee
Salvage-Pulse: Increased burst length, increased cooldown; main advantage is you can go afk for up to 30s after starting a burst
Salvage-Cannon: Slower, but reduced cooldown; you can mine without annoying interruptions, but don't get more blocks per time.
Also, energy consumption is different, but I don't have numbers.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

First of all, I like the new system now. I've been playing around with it some more, and I found the pulsing quite useful and different/new/fun.

I think that pulse is really usefulmfor asteroid mining. Compact array, fast mining, long pulse means that you can salvage an entire one in the time it takes to switch back off again. For planet mining, however, I'm just going to be using salvage - cannon combinations.

Tip: don't make your salvage - pulse combos larger than 8 salvage modules and 8 pulse modules. You won't gain a lot by going higher (only 8 damage per tick that is useful, as it already does 192 damage). But above 9 and 9, you won't notice a difference; that's because there isn't one. The damage per tick is already at 200+, and the salvage damage needed to salvage a block is 200, and the damage doesn't carry over from block to block.

Salvage - cannon I'd recommend not going much higher than 20 salvage modules and 20 cannon modules, as above that things will start lagging (a lot). It would be better to save mass and energy consumption, and at the same time reducing lag, by not making larger arrays than 10 salvage modules and 10 cannon modules.

This just is my opinion though, and some might want to go for the 100 salvage modules and 100 cannon modules in one beam to get the maximum useful damage per tick (exactly 200 then), but at that point the ships will be insanely large and the lag will be immense. So don't so that.

 

[Malacodor]

Tip: don't make your salvage - pulse combos larger than 8 salvage modules and 8 pulse modules. You won't gain a lot by going higher (only 8 damage per tick that is useful, as it already does 192 damage). But above 9 and 9, you won't notice a difference; that's because there isn't one. The damage per tick is already at 200+, and the salvage damage needed to salvage a block is 200, and the damage doesn't carry over from block to block.

It seems to me that excess damage does indeed carry over somehow. With a 1:1 salvage-cannon combo I can mine one block per burst, but after mining some blocks two blocks are mined in one burst. Also, it looks like each consecutive block is mined a bit faster than the previous one - until there's enough time left to mine a second block. On the other hand there seems to be a hard cap,but this needs further testing.

Salvage - cannon I'd recommend not going much higher than 20 salvage modules and 20 cannon modules, as above that things will start lagging (a lot). It would be better to save mass and energy consumption, and at the same time reducing lag, by not making larger arrays than 10 salvage modules and 10 cannon modules.

This just is my opinion though, and some might want to go for the 100 salvage modules and 100 cannon modules in one beam to get the maximum useful damage per tick (exactly 200 then), but at that point the ships will be insanely large and the lag will be immense. So don't so that.

Salvage-cannon beams can't mine more than 22 blocks per burst, no matter if 21 or 200 blocks are used.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

It seems to me that excess damage does indeed carry over somehow. With a 1:1 salvage-cannon combo I can mine one block per burst, but after mining some blocks two blocks are mined in one burst.

That's because it does 10 ticks on the first block it touches in a burst. If you do 20 damage, you'll mine a block, and when another pulse begins immediately after that, it would seem like two blocks are mined in one go.

Salvage-cannon beams can't mine more than 22 blocks per burst, no matter if 21 or 200 blocks are used.

I doubt that is true. It can salvage a maximum of 1 block per tick, but the tick time is 0.025 / 5 = a very small tick time. And one burst is 2.5 seconds. Do the math, and I think you'll find that it can salvage a lot more than 22 blocks per burst. The lag might be preventing the game from mining more than a certain amount, but I guarantee that the maximum amount of blocks per burst is a lot higher than 22.