How do you protect the little guy?

[Koloss_Meshuggah]

Eve Online handles this pretty well. If you shoot someone you become a "criminal" and get a red cross-bones icon. You become fair game for anyone in New Eden to waste you until the cross-bone timer runs out.



Starmade can take this a step further by putting your location on the galaxy map for everyone to see. Then players who want to specialize as bounty hunters can hunt you down (for credits or standing with the Trade Guild). Even if you run to the edge of the galaxy someone in a logic-jumping titan will come and wreck you. There's your pvp incentive :D

Edit: there's still the problem that players already in titans can do what ever they want....idk

 

[kulbolen]

Yes, I realize that, and therein is the fun of the challenge.

fite me bro =p

 

[Matt_Bradock]

Newbies in general should have no specific rules to apply to them.

HOWEVER. PvP itself should be handled. Right now, engaging in PvP takes no risk other than losing the single ship you took there. Worst case, you respawn at your invincible homebase safe from any attempt at a retaliation. You only risk losing your satellite bases for system claims, which players usually solve by slapping a faction module on a derelict or planet and calling it a day, the only thing being at risk is the loss of that singular faction module. Swell.

SO. Like many ideas before my post, I also think notorious PvP players should have something to worry about (they like a challenge anyway... let's give them one.)
I propose the following to be implemented:

Each faction (and factionless player) should have a tag, which can have the following values:
- Peaceful
- Freelancer
- Pirate

They would also have a Notoriety value, which could be displayed by everyone and have consequences if it goes too high.

Peaceful setting would grant a 50% bonus to mining in own or allied space, and a 50% transport fee reduction when trading, BUT you lose Peaceful setting the moment you mine in a non-allied player or NPC faction's system (stealing/poaching) or fire at/damage any non-hostile ship, claimed planet or non-derelict station, turning you into a Freelancer. Peaceful factions could serve as miners, traders and service providers (Game arenas, warp gate network, trade network). GAINING EVEN ONE POINT OF NOTORIETY WOULD SET YOUR SETTING TO FREELANCER until all your Notoriety has decayed.

Freelancers wouldn't have an extra mining or trade bonus, but they could fight freely, and their Notoriety won't increase as long as they attack only NPC pirates, Scavenger/Outcast NPC factions, and players with the Pirate tag. As opportunists, they would get 10% more loot from NPC pirate ships. Freelancer factions would make good mercenaries or law enforcers. However, if they'd keep mining in non-allied factions' claimed sectors, or attack NPC Traders, non-hostile Freelancer, or Peaceful factions/players, each time it happens (mining as much as a single block in another faction's space, or hitting the before mentioned factions with any weapon) their Notoriety increases. When Notoriety hits 10, they'd get the Pirate tag.

Pirates are the most notorious players and factions in the galaxy. They would be automatically treating and treated by each non-allied faction as hostile (except Outcasts), and attacking them wouldn't increase the attacker's Notoriety. Pirates wouldn't be able to claim systems, but they could still have their homebase(but its coordinates would only be displayed if someone spotted it), and instead, they would have the claimed system mining bonus by mining in hostile systems. However, that would also come with the drawback that whenever they come into the 2 sector vicinity of a non-allied non-derelict station or ship, the entity that spotted them broadcasts a message serverwide:
[###WARNING! A PIRATE HAS BEEN SPOTTED IN THE VICINITY OF EntityName IN SECTOR X-Y-Z###]
inviting the Freelancers to go for a pirate hunt, though only giving the approximate position (the message would only contain the spotter's coordinates, not the pirate's) and no names.
The most notorious factions and players would also gain a bounty of 100000 credits per point of Notoriety, that would automatically go to the player scoring a kill against them, further encouraging pirate hunting (top 10 players/faction members every server)

Notoriety decays over time - by 1 point every 24 hours of server uptime (server restarts would not reset Notoriety, only universe wipes)

Notoriety would increase for performing the following actions:
- Hitting a non-hostile NPC ship or station with any weapon or drain beam(incl. warheads): 1 point (can only increase once every 10 seconds)
- Hitting an unclaimed derelict station or planet with any weapon or salvage beam(incl. warheads): 1 point (Peaceful setting only)
- Hitting a non-hostile or Peaceful player controlled/player factioned ship or station or any entity on its docking chain(incl. warheads): 2 points (can only increase once every 10 seconds)
- Mining in an NPC faction's claimed system: 1 point (can increase once every 60 seconds)
- Mining in a non-allied player faction's claimed system: 1 point (can increase once every 30 seconds)
- Blowing up a planet in any space except your own: 10 points

 

[Mortiferum]

I kinda like the idea of "position being broadcasted", but then it encourages one thing only.

Pirate in a 500k mass ship to slap everyone that attempts to come for you, or dont pirate.

 

[Edymnion]

you have been addressed but have an agenda to push and make things up to suit your argument.

Nope, just been active here for a long time now, and I've seen a LOT come and go.

 

[Dvaren]

Some larger multi-server factions complained about being unable to defend themselves against trolls, especially griefing, but I guess logic fixed most of the issue (passwords with display modules) together with minefields, sector-loaded detectors and stuff.

It also depends where you travel. If I would want to troll a server and I don't know the peoples, I would first look at coordinates like 100,0,0 / near spawn / near warp gates.
Maybe you have just evaded these spots. Or server-settings which attract them, but I was mostly offline and busy with logic because of online lags and login issues on sunworld.

I joined the test-server some time ago and got trolled unintentionally with "beautiful heat-seaker fireworks". But I think that most servers are just too boring for trolls and that it will change with less fps-issues and a higher player-count.​

*chuckles*

Somehow I doubt that large multi-server factions need game mechanics modified in their favor in order to defend themselves =) Actual trolls, as rare as they might be within this game at least, will never go away. Yet their scarcity here, and the ease of which they are defended against, forces me to ponder whether we are presenting solutions in search of a problem.

 

[Matt_Bradock]

I kinda like the idea of "position being broadcasted", but then it encourages one thing only.

Pirate in a 500k mass ship to slap everyone that attempts to come for you, or dont pirate.

It also means that you have time to GTFO or prepare if you're close to where it was spotted.

 

[NaStral]

I think Pietrko hit it on the head 100%. Well thought out diminishing returns to prevent exponential growth in power (it's not exactly exponential but it's enough to certainly lead many people to that conclusion), and things like maintenance costs and possibly even things like ammunition and fuel would create steady resource and time sinks, both giving money in the economy badly needed meaning (it's not sufficient at the moment) and forcing people to work together to build and maintain super powerful warships. Obviously these different fuel consumption and maintenance requirements would be items in the server config to be edited as needed.

Now as for as the little guy is concerned, a server admin would have to determine what that is. At what mass do the maintenance fuel, ammo requirements even kick in? More than likely you would wouldn't want all that to start being important until your past 50k, but on servers with newer player base maybe you'd want it lower to give a "soft cap" of sorts to the server's meta.

 

[MacThule]

Game modes.

It's a game with over 100 weapon combos, 4 different degrees of armor on components, shields and force fields. If you're playing with weapons hot (and not in SP Creative, a pure RP server, a pure build server or something similar), people shouldn't be protected.

Over-coddling chokes the MP in this game like a drunken and psychotic (albeit well-intentioned) mother. MP servers are stagnant because the excessive protection offered by free, unlimited, permanent HB invulnerability leaves no place to go and nothing to do with the majority of block variety in the game once you've tired of spamming death at AI rats. Players are protected so much in the first place that they can play for weeks without ever knowing what they're doing and still never be killed once, which is exactly why they flip when they lose their grind-baby to something as simple as straight out theft or sunburn.

Between infinite HB protection and a base x12 economic bypass - er, I mean 'bonus' - that still has everyone in MP saying "just mine and craft everything yourself" there's hardly even opportunity for challenge, and challenge is the lifeblood of any game or sport.

How much more protection is needed? Just turn the weapons off already if it's not enough.

Most games have modes. SM does not, and probably never will. IMO though that's the only way to "protect the little guy" even more without strangling gameplay even more. Anything else will just cripple playability more by trying to make 1 universal mode make a half dozen different kinds of players happy.

Creative Mode, RP/Nerf Mode (no damage to player-owned entities from weapons, suns, etc), Standard Mode (current), Competitive Mode (strict mass & fleet caps), and True Sandbox Mode (there's no teacher standing around in the damn sandbox protecting you or giving you resource cookies when you're sad or the terrible idea you had works out terribly or when someone hustles you out of your favorite Pokemon card). Something like that; I'm not interested in an exhaustive treatment right now, but give MP play modes and tell "the little guy" to stay in Creative and color and not to play in the sandbox if he can't handle respawning and starting over when he fails at life. Done.

 

[kulbolen]

Just git gud. The big guys are almost always occupied fighting eachother. If they somehow find enough free time to attack a weak noob with very little resources or threat to them, either become a big guy yourself or ally with whichever big guy is currently fighting the one who is attacking you. If there's no one on the server who can rival them, then perhaps find another server? You did just start, after all.

but lecic, everyone wants to run their own empire right from the start with little to no effort to get there. they certainly dont want to be someones bitch for awhile first; THE NERVE
[doublepost=1490144128,1490143721][/doublepost]

Over-coddling chokes the MP in this game like a drunken and psychotic (albeit well-intentioned) mother. MP servers are stagnant because the excessive protection offered by free, unlimited, permanent HB invulnerability leaves no place to go and nothing to do with the majority of block variety in the game once you've tired of spamming death at AI rats. Players are protected so much in the first place that they can play for weeks without ever knowing what they're doing and still never be killed once, which is exactly why they flip when they lose their grind-baby to something as simple as straight out theft or sunburn.

Between infinite HB protection and a base x12 economic bypass - er, I mean 'bonus' - that still has everyone in MP saying "just mine and craft everything yourself" there's hardly even opportunity for challenge, and challenge is the lifeblood of any game or sport.

but macthuleeeee, i thought i was playing single player with a multiplayer chatroom attached, waaaaah i do not want any form of challenge or risk; awareness and learning, what are these things
[doublepost=1490144325][/doublepost]

Game with lacking economy allows all sort of shitty things to happen and you can patch it over and over again and it still be broken at its core.

qft

 

[Edymnion]

but lecic, everyone wants to run their own empire right from the start with little to no effort to get there. they certainly dont want to be someones bitch for awhile first; THE NERVE

And why should they?

Why does the idea that you have to be someone's bitch for a while before you're allowed to have fun even exist? The very idea that you have to suffer and suck it up for a while doesn't make the game fun for anyone but the established players, it actively drives new players away.

The game should be just as much fun for someone the first day on a server as it is the 100th day.

 

[The Judge]

And why should they?

Why does the idea that you have to be someone's bitch for a while before you're allowed to have fun even exist? The very idea that you have to suffer and suck it up for a while doesn't make the game fun for anyone but the established players, it actively drives new players away.

The game should be just as much fun for someone the first day on a server as it is the 100th day.

I can understand where you're coming from, but that sounds so ridiculously stupid.
All wars are won by Resources, not Fleet Combat. It's pretty simple. (Whoever has a greater Industrial Capacity/Resources to fuel Industry will always win.) What you want is the Faction with LESS resources to triumph over the one with more, and that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

 

[MacThule]

I can understand where you're coming from, but that sounds so ridiculously stupid.
All wars are won by Resources, not Fleet Combat. It's pretty simple. (Whoever has a greater Industrial Capacity/Resources to fuel Industry will always win.) What you want is the Faction with LESS resources to triumph over the one with more, and that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

Always here feels... hyperbolic. Let's say "usually."

The Greeks did not have a stronger industrial base than the Persians in -499, but did quite well in that war due to a series of strategic and tactical successes. Isolated Roman outposts without consistent supply lines often triumphed over larger local armies with extensive available resources, and that was entirely about how the Romans fought (disciplined & well-trained soldiers and officers) and the kind of equipment they selected for their forces. Chiang Kai-shek had far superior resources (and foreign support) at his disposal than did the Communist revolutionary forces that eventually drove him from the Chinese mainland to Taiwan.

Superior resources usually triumph, but well-trained or simply genius tacticians and strategists can more than unbalance that equation. IRL anyway.

I don't think that having superior resources in SM should be penalized or that underdogs should be subsidized to win, but I also think that games are more fun when you can viably achieve victory in a variety of ways, just as in real life. So it should at least be 'possible' (however absurdly difficult) for an economic underdog to win a pitched conflict with an established powerhouse through skill and ingenuity.

 

[Panpiper]

Germaine to the intent of this thread is something I just posted, 'The 'Dread Pirate' Challenge'.

This is an attempt to corral the worst of those whom some might see as griefers, while giving everyone a way to engage in some gentlemanly PvP fun. The post is a first draft and may be modified pending other people's input to the idea.

 

[Vvolodymyr]

I think it all really depends on one thing - how often does it really happen that the "little guy" is actually preyed upon?
Does a noticeable portion of new players gets attacked to the point where they give up playing before they properly started playing?
If it is indeed a notable phenomenon - then absolutely, the "little guy" would need some sort of protection.
It's hard to say definitively without real statistic - maybe dev team could implement a statistic gathering programme for the server people.

As for the general moderation of behavior - namely PvP - we do already have different servers with different rules: build, role-playing, general & mandatory PvP. All with their own rules. Here it seems to be a server selection issue - everyone chooses the server with the atmosphere they prefer.

If there will be eventually one giant official server for all (is that likely?) - then I would of course lean towards some reasonable moderation of behavior with starter protection and possibly tags. The notoriety idea seems cool. We could have bounty system too. The notoriety + bounty idea kinda ties the PvP and RP aspects together.

Right now though, everything is still up in the air - many possibilities still open.

 

[Lecic]

And why should they?

Why does the idea that you have to be someone's bitch for a while before you're allowed to have fun even exist? The very idea that you have to suffer and suck it up for a while doesn't make the game fun for anyone but the established players, it actively drives new players away.

The game should be just as much fun for someone the first day on a server as it is the 100th day.

The point was that you should not be able to fight a larger and more established faction on your first day, and that you should seek help with someone who is if someone else decides to pick a fight with you.

 

[kulbolen]

And why should they?

Why does the idea that you have to be someone's bitch for a while before you're allowed to have fun even exist? The very idea that you have to suffer and suck it up for a while doesn't make the game fun for anyone but the established players, it actively drives new players away.

congratulations, you tried to distort my post to fit your argument. i never said they shouldnt be able to have fun. YOU made the connection that starting from the bottom isnt fun. i quite enjoy it.

you start from the bottom in almost every mmo rpg/sim/grand strategy style game that exists. whether because of a lack of game knowledge and experience, or a lack of arbitrary levels, skills, resources. and you learn to deal with this. in a mostly pve environment it may be less apparent because the competition is about performance, status, or perhaps mob kills, world firsts, instead of player kills... but its still there. you may choose to play casually even, but its still there.

if you want to enter a server on day 1 as a new player and just "have" an established empire to compete with veterans, because thats what you feel entitled to to have fun; weve identified the root disconnect between us. this would not be fun at all to me.

 

[Mortiferum]

The point was that you should not be able to fight a larger and more established faction on your first day, and that you should seek help with someone who is if someone else decides to pick a fight with you.

This

This is like going logging onto EVE with a new account, and expecting to kill a titan. It is called "delusion".
[doublepost=1490237026,1490236868][/doublepost]New players should not be offered some form of divine intervention in the form of game mechanics. Server rules, as well as the players ganging themselves up to take down bigger enemies should be encouraged.

 

[Vvolodymyr]

but lecic, everyone wants to run their own empire right from the start with little to no effort to get there. they certainly dont want to be someones bitch for awhile first; THE NERVE

The point was that you should not be able to fight a larger and more established faction on your first day, and that you should seek help with someone who is if someone else decides to pick a fight with you.

As it's seen in 1st quote - the "point" was rather nasty mockery of the idea of *protecting the little guy* employing exaggeration.

Frankly some people seem like they are entitled to gaslight, mock sarcastically anyone promoting different ideas.
I see many such instances even just in this thread - a person gets attacked, provoked into some emotional response, and then that response is ridiculed to discount that person. We all know what type of online persons use such technique.

It's not the topic - it's this nastiness that can discourage some from participating in the community and in discussions.

Now - we are all expected to contain ourselves when acting within society. That is a necessary and unavoidable part of being human in a society. If someone cannot contain themselves & act in a way that inconveniences others - rules are there to contain them.

 

[kulbolen]

Now - we are all expected to contain ourselves when acting within society. That is a necessary and unavoidable part of being human in a society. If someone cannot contain themselves & act in a way that inconveniences others - rules are there to contain them.

your interpretation of containing yourself may be stricter than mine. in this particular case, someone decided to respond seriously to a facetious comment i made... in response to that someone purposely misrepresenting the topic to argue against it. maybe they should also have exercised some restraint as well. who am i to say?

you are allowed to consider this mean and offensive; im allowed to not care what you think. im not robbing and murdering people or calling anyone an idiot. your human in society argument falls short; this kinda talk is regular in daily encounters. can you explain how this inconveniences you, and how it is everyones responsibility not to? its fun when people shift the focus from topic of discussion to chastising about being polite instead.

also, you just claimed his response was emotional and provoked, which apparently allowed it to be easily ridiculed... but its been his argument the entire time. think about the implications of that, and your analysis describing the interaction.