Handheld weapon modular building/customisation (Other decorative items) repost from old forum.

[BasicPaul]

This is a repost of a thread I posted on the old sites forums quite a long while back.

Original thread can be found here:
http://oldsite.star-made.org/conten...-buildingcustomisation-other-decorative-items

Anyway, looks like some people listened, as it seems people are asking the same question, and the devs are looking into it.

The recent Q&A had this question in it:

Q&A Question: I expect, and hope, that we'll have more variety for handheld weapons in the future, but what I was wondering is if they'll ever become semi-customizable, or even fully customizable? Like, there's a workshop block that you enter and create a weapon(within reasonable size parameters) just like you would make a ship.

Schine Team Answer: We are looking into a system that would work similar to the ship building, but I can’t confirm it yet.

Ive included a list at the bottom of this post to clearly indicate the most fitting things to come out of the discussion, and hilight my ideas within that.




My original post, which includes other ideas related to this possibility:


"
Handheld weapon modular building/customisation (Other decorative items)
What im proposing would hopefully fit in with the currently in production handheld weapon systems.
The idea would be to have a modular voxel building system (identical to the ship building) that would enable you to build and customise your own weapon models. The system would be theoretically easy to implement on the pre-existing system, as it would use all of the same textures as the ships do. You could even use the same weapons systems.
The thought rather selfishly stemmed from the immediate desire to have a gun that looked like boba fetts rifle. I immediately thought of a similar system in the voxel based game 'Cube World', wherein you can add to and customise weapons to look unique.
I have since discussed it with community members from the thunderdome server, and thought the best way to use such a system would perhaps be to include a weapons building workstation block, which you could place a gun base(core) into, then enter it and be thrown into a 3D build room where you could build your gun just like you would build a ship.
You could potentially add more to the system, such as the need to have ammunition of some sort rather than just energy (especially for missiles, which I think could do with being limited by ammunition for ships too). Pulse weapons as recently added would lend themselves to being used to freeze enemies in place.
Im fairly passionate about the idea, as I think it would add a lot more to the versatility, as well as adding another element for players on servers to use for trade.

(Side note: I know that there may be concerns for graphical rendering of more objects, but I feel that the resource usage would be well worth the new and interesting functionality, especially when the systems for building are already in place.)

Expansions and other uses (Please Read): The system could lend well to other custom items, such as placable furniture. Imagine the amazing ships that could be built using custom decorative chairs and other misc furniture, radar dishes/antennae, weapons array decoration, custom doors, portholes/window decoration, panelling/control areas/buttons, paintings/pixelartwork, custom lightsources ETC.
Decorative items would be added as a named item and textured using the same textures as the main blocks. They could then be placed like a normal item and the "core" block of it could act as the anchor point in the center bottom.
Again, these custom decorations would add in multiple new opportunities for trade of unique items.
Decoration ships:
Furthering this system, you could build tiny models of your own ships as decorations. You could extend this to blueprints, for instance, the physical model of your ship acts as a physical blueprint for that ship, which could then be traded with somebody. Additionally, they could be used as kill trophies; If you destroy a ship, you get a small model of it for display!

Programming and resource cost considerations:
This system would be relatively simple to implement, and could potentially massively save on work load. With the number of suggestions and requests for decorative items, it would save a huge amount of time on the developers part, given that you would be handing the creation of such decorative items over to the community.
Not only would there be no need to build new models, but there would be no need to texture them and no need to add in new collision bounds for them. While they would have no functionality other than being decorative, they would infinitely add to the variety of creations, and what people could do.
There would be resource and loading configuration concerns perhaps, but this shouldnt be any more of a problem than loading in a ship would be.

Thanks for taking your time to read the idea!
"

My other reposted idea:
http://starmadedock.net/threads/res...ollection-systems-repost-from-old-forums.831/


Cheers.




List of proposals:

General:​

• Voxel based micro editing for various applications
  • Weapons
  • Decorations
  • Mini vehicles (drones)
  • Mini ship models
  • Other applications: Gear? backpacks/jet packs etc.

• Workshop block/s to support the creation of above things
  • code could also be used in creating the ship yards
  • expandable system that could be used for various other things.
• System reuses ship building blocks to save on asset duplication and memory
  • using pre existing methods saves code
• 3D 'build room'
• Boost to potential creative play - sub section to blueprints for weapons/decorations
• Possibility to use micro blocks in planned logic based systems

Weapons:
​

• Possible additions to support weapon creation
  • 'types' of weapon to determine position in relation to dave
    • Rocket launcher
    • rifle (pulse, AMC, phase/beam)
    • pistol
    • etc
  • possible character preview to show you how it looks
  • multiple weapon CPUs = multiple fire modes/underslung weapons
    
  • possible pre built examples/guides
  • possible optics. Use cockpit to assign right click view?
  • possible new "ammo/storage" blocks (could also be used for ships)
    • Rockets in particular - Attach box to CPU to supply
    • Possibility for factory addition: creation of ammo gives need to manufacture
    • possibility for a similar system to manage other resources later on, such as attaching a box to salvage beams to collect resources into them.
• Position of actual weapon block would help correct the issue with laser point of origin. Lasers could now originate from the weapon blocks
• Boba fetts blaster plz
  
• Weapon creation limitations (balance)
  • Limited number of weapon blocks eg:
    • 3 rockets in launcher
    • 10 amc in pistol
    • 30 amc in rifle
    • etc
  • limited area to be used eg:
    • 10 micro blocks long for pistol
    • 30 for rifle
    • 50 for rocket launcher
    • etc
  • alternatively, rendered versions are scaled, so regardless of how many blocks are used, the model will always appear within a certain boundary. Limits needed of course.
  • length of weapon block determines speed, but shorter determines accuracy
    • more block length = more speed less power
      
    • thicker and more powerful weapon = more spread more power
      • rockets would have slow shooting speed by default, but high power
      • lots of lasers = more spread, more power
      • less lasers = less power, more accuracy
      • similar to current system for ships with some possible tweaks

Decorations:

• Possible to build 'parts' in workshop
  • arm, legs, back of a chair
  • control panels and wiring
  • radar dishes and other external
  • pixel art
  • etc
• multiple new trading possibilites
• ship trophies
  • destroy a ship -> get given a trophy model of it in small scale
  • could be extended so that these small scale models are used as projections on a holo table when building in planned ship yards. (holograms too?)
• micro blocks would perhaps be 30x30x30 to one normal game cube, or something similar
  • possible ability to assign how many micro blocks you want within a 1 cube space i.e. 3x3x3 up to 100x100x100?

Programming resource consideration:

• no need for new assets, supports existing models/blocks
  • as previously mentioned, reuse of existing methods means less new code
• each decoration sub block can be rendered as one block (possibly no need to calculate hitboxes of complex areas?)
• decoration over function - no need to create chairs, panels etc... community driven content creation
• its a given that it will eat up some resources, but some compromise is more than acceptable given how much freedom this would add to the game. Boosts creativity
  
• items could be created, saved, and spawned as one entity

User Syleiel posted the perfect examples with regards to weapons creation, though these could be applied to all suggestions:
http://imageshack.com/a/img834/7905/hvyt.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img842/4179/6s0x.png
http://imageshack.com/a/img835/4472/qzkj.png
http://imageshack.com/a/img842/6464/p81x8.jpg
​

 

[kupu]

I'm curious to know wether the community wants a voxel based system or a preset model system to create their weapons.
*watches thread*

 

[ltmauve]

Having a voxel-based system, would, if we could see our weapons in 1st person mode, allow us to make really cool sights.

That said, it would be easier to learn the system if there was some sort of preset frames that we filled.

 

[BasicPaul]

The way I see it: while it's nice having modelled items, a voxel based approach would really add for a lot more uniqueness and creativity.

Not only are the systems for this already in place, as it's a block based game, but it would also present new opportunities for decorative items later on using the same system (as outlined in my original idea). Also, arms traders! Weapon blueprints!

I'd particularly like to see a system like this used for complex furniture and mini versions of our ships as display items. I really like keeping trophies, being an avid collector of things :p.

To further this, with the information given on an upcoming dry dock and possibly hologram system, this would present great opportunities for ship preview.

Clearly there would be size limits for weapons, but the possibilities are endless in terms of other items.

Anyway, it's great to see that the idea is getting recognition, regardless of whether schines interest stemmed from my thread or not.

Cheers!

 

[Legolas170]

All of the yes

 

[Syleiel]

The current trend I have been seeing lately from successful games is that typically when there is more potential for community/user generated content, that game tends to have a very long life. Because of their ability for users to add an extremely large amount of varied content, Garry's Mod and Minecraft are both blossoming examples of games that will continue to share a very long lasting life. I could definitely foresee that a voxel based system for weapons would be a great addition, by expanding upon the amount of user made content and helping the game's overall long term lifespan. There are many different ways that it could be implemented with different levels of detail.

 

[rece ktore leczo]

+billion for the voxel based system. Both for making handheld weapons and decorative blocks.

For the decorative blocks it may work that 1 normal sized block would be divided into 10x10x10 (1000) or 5x5x5 (125) space for blocks. This way players would have MUCH freedom for decorating their ships. For example this way it would be possible to make decorative blocks with logic system and buttons and flickering lights in different colors working as some kind of display. Pure awesomeness.
Or just simply build not cubic-shaped beds and chairs and coffee mugs and EVERYTHING.

Well of course it would eat more memory and resources than typical blocks, but WHO CARES.
(sorry for the "shouting" but i'm excited about this system )

Maybe these decorative block-spaces would come in different variants like 3x3x3 and 5x5x5, etc., because some stuff don't need to be detailed as much as other things.


This is a great solution for the need of adding more decorative blocks either by the Devs or fan-made texture packs. Every ship interior would be fully customizable and have specific look.


For the handheld weapons it also give us much freedom and customization. As in OP - we already have the weapons system, basically we need to scale it down and BOOM we have a rocket launcher with guided missiles.
To prevent building OP handheld weapons with millions of blocks which could shoot down capital ships it can be limited with max number of blocks and some form of ammunition.

For each weapon there may be systems:

• weapons
• ammo capacity
• aiming

Weapons would determine what type of projectiles we are shooting (+all of the typical stats: damage of each tick, speed of projectile, range, etc.)
Ammo capacity and aiming systems would work: more blocks of that system = weapon more accurate/can store more ammo

This way we could build a laser machine gun with high shooting speed and ammo capacity but low damage of each projectile and accuracy.
Or a missile launcher with enormous damage output and pretty decent accuracy but low shooting speed and ammo capacity.


Just a remainder - it would be self balancing system, because of the limit of blocks we could use, so we can't just place a lot of everything making a perfect gun, but we would need to sacrifice some of stats to buff another ones.



Something like this could be also implemented for suits with different upgrades. Like we have two spaces for suits upgrades and we can use them as we would like, i.e. have an ammo bag and a health pack (for combat situations) or repair kit and breaching charges (for engineers).
And all of these upgrades would be customized by players (health pack can slowly heal a lot of lost HPs but slowly or fast healing for cost of faster depleting, etc)

 

[ltmauve]

I wonder if we can get voxel spacesuits as well.

 

[Syleiel]

I wonder if we can get voxel spacesuits as well.

I'm pleased with how the current skins work at the moment.

 

[ltmauve]

I'm pleased with how skins work at the moment.

For the shape as well as actual stats.

 

[BasicPaul]

The thinking for weapons in my system is that they would be build using the same blocks that are used for ships, so we can make smaller and less powerful versions. I.e. A gun would still need a weapons CPU and cannons to function, and this would determine which kind of weapon.


The thinking with decorations isn't that you could line a ship with smaller blocks as this would be CPU intensive, but rather that you use a workshop block to build the decoration and then save it. You could then spawn the 'item' in and place it like any other block.

My hope is that this would lend for some rendering optimisation so that the finished thing can be treated as one entity rather than a collection of blocks. I'm not an expert coder, so I couldn't say entirely, but knowing a little about java rendering, I imagine someone like this might be possible?

Even if it were limited to an object within a cube, you could make component parts in order to make a whole item. For instance you make a blueprint for the base of a chair, as well as the back and sides, then place all three parts to create the chair itself.

For ship trophies I was thinking more along the lines that you would get one for killing that ship and could place it. Or perhaps another system block which renders a full blueprint as a projection above a projector block.

 

[rece ktore leczo]

BasicPaul I agree with You

I also don't want ships to be fully covered by smaller blocks, they would only serve a decorative purpose and yes, placing them would require to have a blueprint of them, which could be made on some bench or something like that.

We should be able to place the same weapons blocks as in our ship, but it'd be nice to also have two new blocks for the systems i've mentioned (aiming and ammo capacity).

Projections of blueprints of ships would be awesome. I'm not sure about automatically adding these projections the moment player destroys another ship.
Just with the system of projecting blueprints and with saving a blueprints as a physical stuff added to inventory, we could go into overheating core of enemy ship, save the blueprint and then upload the blueprint into our projection block and be happy with our new trophy What's more, this trophy projection would have a lot of battle scars, so it would look awesome

 

[therimmer96]

Voxel based all the way. Have some defaults built in for le newbs who just want the PEWPEWPEW, and allow us to save and share them like ships

 

[BasicPaul]

in terms of trophies, a hologram option is there, but I would love the idea of a small sized model of my ship that I can place down.

Think in terms of the model ships seen in other sci fi series, like battlestar, mass effect etc.

I think these kinds of assets could also be used to set up some pretty cool "war room" style things.

Setting a table out with lots of tiny one to two block mock ups of battle situations for example... building a model of a planet with ships orbiting.

So many possibilities for such a system..


I honestly feel like adding in this level of fidelity would enhance the game with hours of more creative gameplay to add to the hours more adventure content on its way.

We would have builders that build entire dioramas in small scale!

Theres a lot to think about, and a lot of possibilities.

 

[Crimson-Artist]

i think we should try something similar to what planet explorers does for this system

basically have blocks that serve as the primary function block for the weapon like a barrel or a handle and other blocks like hull blocks can be added to make the weapons shape

 

[Visitor]

Warning! Moloch of a post time.

What I'd hope for in regards to the question I've asked for Q&A mentioned by the OP would be something like like modular design in a way of combining preset elements of all kinds of equipment. Since I feel like letting my imagination go, I will write down one of the few systems I was wondering about, along the lines (meaning, stuff probably would use input of others) of what I'll write down there. Bear with me, it won't be that much of a short post, but I'll try to explain an idea thoroughly. This won't be only about weapons but about modular system of equipment in general.

I'd first divide the equipment into several categories. Let's say simple setup of helmet, armor, handgun and rifle would cover most of what people would need, allow degree of customization without bogging the whole thing down with a lot to try to keep it simple but potent. Intentionally I wouldn't want to use such system for stuff like handheld mining equipment as I believe that system of 'get tier 1 drill to mine this, make tier 2 to mine that' would be neither fun nor really useful in a world where people strip-mine planets.

Then, have each item come with few elements, for example:
Helmet: Visor, Shell, Additional
Armor: Shell, Jetpack, Additional
Handgun: Frame, Muzzle, Magazine, Sights
Rifle: Receiver, Stock, Muzzle, Magazine, Sights

That should provide decent customization while making it simple.

Each in each element's slot now, one of several designs could be used for a module, offering different stats.

For helmet:

- Visors - depending on the design used, visor could offer additional protection against damage at the cost of visibility (vision glitches? dim or color-tinted view?) as well as offer different UIs (mostly meaning listing of targets with info regarding distance, speed of the object etc). Thus, one could get some sort of reinforced combat visor that is somewhat dim but gives the user decent protection, with rather minimalistic UI and slightly limited vision (view going through some filter, bars across the screen etc) or some scout visor with great visibility, ability to get a zoom in, UI with some additional tidbits of information about targeted object. Then, few models of everything in between, from cheap but decently sturdy visor that wouldn't have a decent defogger making fog temporarily condense on the surface from time to time to something between all aforementioned.
- Shell is the whole 'package' - dictating the resistance and weight of the helmet. Different designs of shell dictate the base defensive rating of the item, affect it's decay under severe condition (resistance to acid rain, radiation etc) and bulkyness (limited speed of turning?).

- Additional would be little non-vital gimmicks that'd improve certain features of the helmet or give it new functions. Poison filters, advanced rebreathers making oxygen supply last longer, mounted lights of different strength, frame reinforcements for those who want even more defensive potential or an encouragement to headbutt incoming missiles.

Armor:
- Shell could have exactly the same properties shell of a helmet does, just with overall bigger effect on character's 'stats'.

- Jetpack is basic propulsion system, necessary for spacewalk. Different modules could allow different speed, use of energy, responsiveness/class of stabilisers (one module could stop the player nearly instantly after letting the key go, other would decelerate very slowly) or even change a bit of dynamic of flight (continuous, smooth flight which could use up the energy rather quickly vs jetpack creating periodically bursts of push in the direction the user specifies).

- Additional. Similar, with differences, to helmet's additional modules slot. Ability to mount lights, additional protection layers against certain types of damage, servomotors increasing speed of of running character.

Handgun:
- Frame - The base of the pistol. Governing to a degree the rate of fire (time between shots as well as 'mode' - whether it'd make single shots or, say, bursts of two shots per pressed mouse button?) and damage.

- Muzzle - Stabilizing the gun, main effect on accuracy, at a trade-off of rate of fire or damage dealt.

- Magazine - Energy consumption of the gun per shot, energy recharge rate, maybe a choice to actually have a gun (at least audio-visually) shooting bullets (invisible projectiles with less-sci fi sound effect) rather than beams of energy if someone wants such.

- Sights - Again, effect on accuracy, worse or better aiming crosshair, maybe actual ability to target with sights a'la typical shooter.

Rifle:
- Receiver - What frame is for the pistol. The main element which makes one rifle be closer to a shotgun while other is more of an assault carbine.
- Stock - Weight, bigger effect on accuracy than it is in case of a muzzle/sights (if only to simulate through overall bonus that rifles are generally longer range weapons in comparison with pistols), looks.
- Muzzle - As in handguns.
- Magazine - Likewise.
- Sights - And again, I'd imagine the function would be very much like in case of a pistol.

----

The pros of this setup? Combination of different elements allowing range of possibilities, using and encouraging the crafting system and all, through different modules affecting final stats, easily controllable for the sake of balancing. In addition, since from the server-side data about other player's gun/armor/whatever would be just a few variables that can be easily verified, somewhat decreased potential for cheating. Lastly, possibly different looks of a weapon, without allowing voxel design of their looks.

Here, a matter of explanation as the last may not be a good thing for some users here. The problem I have with customizable voxel models, aside from the fact that it is more data to exchange between users is the fact that sadly, it's easily exploitable. I am willing to bet that the moment it'd get added, someone either would make one-cube-sized gun to decrease the hitbox, make a big, idiotic (yes, I went there, pardon me), grotesque gun for taking out planets if stats would be dependant on looks or, let's be frank, will encourage further rather immature actions of people shooting others with great, pink penises of doom. Again, that's not even half as cool as some may think and would easily give opponents of the game some ammo to use in negative advertisement.

The cons I would see to this system is that it'd be a bit more work to add in comparison with making just some sort of slider system for different stats - as many people know, what's already was added to the ship weapons and frankly, what is considered dull, boring and lacking potential for many if opinions I've stumbled upon are any indicator. Visors also may pose certain issue in regards to filters etc affecting actual visibility - I am sure people would try to circumvent this to get best stats with no drawbacks.

All of this is simply a proposal of an idea, one of few ways of going about modularity I was thinking about when subjecting the question to Q&A. Should there be interest, will and time, I may share others. Be forewarned.

 

[rece ktore leczo]

Visitor For Your problems with voxel based system there are easy solutions.

The problem I have with customizable voxel models, aside from the fact that it is more data to exchange between users (...)

These weapons wouldn't be made from thousands of blocks, there would be a block limit for each weapon. Well, maybe a thousand blocks or something like this, but still, comparing to ships made from millions of blocks, it's nothing. Maybe with huge numbers of players shooting at each others from the decks of capitals it would make some difference

(...) is the fact that sadly, it's easily exploitable. I am willing to bet that the moment it'd get added, someone either would make one-cube-sized gun to decrease the hitbox, make a big, idiotic (yes, I went there, pardon me), grotesque gun for taking out planets if stats would be dependant on looks (...)

I don't think handheld weapons need cube destruction as it is with ship blocks, simply consider whole gun as one block, once enough HP is depleted the weapons starts to malfunction or stop working at all. Maybe even stay with current system of untargetable, undestroyable guns.
One-cubed-sized gun --> check

blocks counts limit
OP big guns --> check

(...)or, let's be frank, will encourage further rather immature actions of people shooting others with great, pink penises of doom.

Yeah... It's actually pretty funny But players can also build big flying dildos, or make statues of fertility on their bases and we don't take away their ability to build whatever they want

Again, that's not even half as cool as some may think and would easily give opponents of the game some ammo to use in negative advertisement.

I think voxel based system is great for advertisement. Customizable, not copying planet explorers, sticking with the game style, and the most important - fun


To Your suggestion - it's fun, but too detailed system. I'll comment more tomorrow, because now i'm going to sleep

 

[Visitor]

These weapons wouldn't be made from thousands of blocks, there would be a block limit for each weapon. Well, maybe a thousand blocks or something like this, but still, comparing to ships made from millions of blocks, it's nothing. Maybe with huge numbers of players shooting at each others from the decks of capitals it would make some difference

There is a bit of a difference between ships and personal weapons. Thousand of blocks make first just a medium-sized (depending on one's take on it) ship, the second makes rather humongeous device, more of a infantry-sized mobile weapon platform than actual infantry firearm.

One-cubed-sized gun --> check

blocks counts limit
OP big guns --> check

If only this would be that easy. What I meant was an effect of character hitbox in case of the former as I'd assume weapon held would be part of the whole model's hitbox - otherwise people would make weapons acting as impenetrable shields. I didn't actually suggest weapon durability and in all honesty, I am not sure if such would be a good idea. The latter I addressed above - such items should be aforementioned personal weapons, not magical, spawning from cosmonaut's pocket artillery cannons.

Yeah... It's actually pretty funny

I am wiling to bet that lot of people would feel very much differently (I may go as far as to say I'd hope so). Ultimately though, it is a matter of sense of humour the same way one person may only laugh at witty, finesse remark wonderfully fitting the situation but someone else needs merely a sound of a fart to roll on the floor laughing. My bad, I shouldn't touch upon tastes, though I would rather have Starmade on the ambitious side more rather than less.

But players can also build big flying dildos, or make statues of fertility on their bases and we don't take away their ability to build whatever they want

This is a valid point. However, I'd risk saying that there's certain difference in how a person shooting someone with a penis gun would look and how they'd actually would make themselves a laughing stock if they'd fly in a penis. My impression here may be skewed or simply not shared.

I think voxel based system is great for advertisement. Customizable, not copying planet explorers, sticking with the game style, and the most important - fun

Whether it's fun may be a matter of preference. Customization limited to stacking cubes into whatever shape one wants actually would be only for looks and that'd be even more disappointing than regular premade guns, IMHO.

To Your suggestion - it's fun, but too detailed system. I'll comment more tomorrow, because now i'm going to sleep

My impression may be biased here, but I actually proposed this system first because it's very simple, merely the post describing it in detail is long. In practical setting it would basically mean 'craft several different parts and put them together = get piece of equipment suited for various tasks and needs', making the whole thing rather robust, yet relatively easy to implement and balance.

Also, in some way modular pre-made equipment components design actually would make it stand out more from games like Planet Explorers than voxel system, as both in suggested voxel models and in latest version of Planet Explorers I've checked out biggest part of gun creation is making the model and basing the performance on that.

 

[JoeTheAntiPro]

without reading any of the other posts, i will give my opinion that someone else has probably given. im just "casting my vote" if you will.

i would like a voxel system, with at least 1-2 pre-made model parts. handle and maybe 2nd hand grip for 2 handed weapons so that way the player models animations will know how to hold the weapon and so players will have a reference point.
Also, as starmade has wedges penta's etc, so should the weapons.

 

[Legolas170]

Ok, so kupu asked about a template system, and I'm not sure that's such a bad idea. Hear me out here.
Firstly, having at least weapon classifications would allow for weapon specific animations for Dave. You would start witha basic setup, say the handle, and build from there. You would also have restrictions upon size, to prevent super powerful doom-weapons. It could also open the door for an ammo system, seeing as certain magazines can only accept ammo so large, which would allow for custom ammo and clips themselves. For example, perhaps the 'mini' docking blocks could be a clip loading station, with enhancers functioning as they do currently, increasing the available clip size. After finishing them weapon, you would be able to go to either the 'Magazine' tab, or the 'Ammunition' tab. In the magazine tab, you could design the magazine for your weapon, and in the ammunition tab, you could design your ammo. Adding certain blocks to your ammo will make it function differently, ie: adding shields would make the bullets deal player damage, but not damage blocks (for shipboard combat), or adding disintegrators make the bullet armor piercing.
Thoughts?