Gigantism

[jorgekorke]

It took myself and my engineer ten planets of strip mining to spawn the 185k mass Executor on the MushroomFleet server, back when it ran on a 10x bonus to mining for survival. We did this in faction territory, which means an additional 6x bonus to the base server level. It was insane how much time and energy it took to get that thing spawned. It was not easy by any means.

Titan builders don't mine. You should observe the major servers to figure that out.

 

[Dire Badger]

Look, Starmade isn't a survival game right now. It's a ship-building simulator that WANTS to be a survival game. Let's be honest :D

And, as always, fuel is a terrible idea because it doesn't add any useful or interesting gameplay - it just requires more resource gathering, which NO ONE likes compared to fighting PvE or PvP or what have you.

Hogwash. resource gathering is the only POINT to PvP or PvE or whatever.

fuel and ammo is a GREAT idea. If it costs you enough resources to build a fleet of cruisers to fire off that 2 mil damage missile launcher, you may think twice about using it as your only weapon.

I don't want a crap mechanic like SE's 'power and oxygen', but fuel and ammo are utterly logical and are completely fun for this style of game.

 

[Pacific_Jim]

That sounds like an issue of shops having more resources than they should, they as of right now carry more combat orientated stuff than I feel is appropriate. Even as it is now, my current project has over 400k blocks of shield capacitors and it's hardly a titan (not exactly small either I will admit), I don't actually want to think how many shops you'd have to hit up to grab that kind of loot.

And as for resource gathering being the only point to the game: I really hope that changes somewhere down the line. A game consisting entirely of build and grind is not a good game (even if the build part is fantastic).

 

[Dire Badger]

I have a question... do rotation speed controls affect turning rates on turret control rails?
That might be a good server mechanic. 'x additional activation blocks to slow down turrets per 100, 100o, etc. turret mass'

 

[QuantumAnomaly]

This bullshit is only practiced by a few servers that I WILL NOT NAME but WHO KNOW WHO THEY ARE. I will also point out that MushroomFleet is not and never will be one of these servers.

This is actually practiced by a LOT of servers, just scroll through the list on the vote site. But I'm not going to get in to a "whose server is better and why" shouting match. My current server does not do it (things like shop spawns are turned DOWN, since it's a hardcore survival server), but is an amazing and welcome server to play on regardless. My prior server had 30 shops in every system, and a billion credits could be attained in your first hour of gameplay, but I'm not going to be shaming them for what they do if that's how they want to play.

However, even on a hardcore survival server, the point is the same. The only real dangerous time on the server is from the moment you start until you are able to easily surpass and farm pirates. Once you pass that point, its easy sailing unless you either poke other factions with sticks or have a troll come hang out. Once you get to that point, resource acquisition becomes easy and you can be well on your way to a titan.

By bringing in a large (say, Titan class) ship that ISN'T a doomcube (or sphere), you are RISKING the opportunity cost of that ship. In essence, it's expensive and costs a lot of time and effort to spawn into a MP server. You are REWARDED for that time and effort with a ship that can basically dominate any other vessel 1v1, but is extremely vulnerable to drone carriers and coordinated fleet engagements. There is no PENALTY for those that either cannot field a Titan or choose to fly a smaller ship. They just have to be aware that they are fighting a capital ship and should be mindful of that simple fact. (I.E., know your enemy and bring friends or a drone carrier).

I think the issue is that there isnt really as much risk on bringing in the titan as there seems. As stated once it has been constructed and BP'd, there's very little risk in fielding it. A smart player wont lose their titan in most battles. The real issue, however, is the exponential rate at which someone can advance once they are at this point.

Here's the big idea: Let's stop worrying about the subtle, not-immediately-obvious problems with balance until schema gets most, if not all, of the *release* gameplay features working. It's not worth the hassle of arguing over problems with far-reaching and possibly limiting solutions. The server admins can limit the size of vessels on their servers if they pay attention. That's all that is needed for now and schema should focus on gameplay content instead of silly balance changes.

I think now is the perfect time to discuss these things, while the game is in alpha, while the communities input is welcome, while things are at least a little easier to change than they would be once the game is complete. Its the whole reason that there's a suggestions forum, and a council. I agree that the game balance isnt done yet, that all the core features arent in yet, but by discussing these things now we may provide a glimmer of insight to the devs. They may read our ramblings and essays on how we see the game and have an idea not one of us has suggested, but they may not have had if it werent for our discussions on the issue.

Lastly, in any military game (and sadly, in real life as well), it's sort of a given point to have the biggest, pointiest stick. In lieu of that, have more pointy sticks than your opponent. I dont feel starmade should be treated any differently, but I think there's a lot of room for it to make it's mark.

 

[Mered4]

Titan builders don't mine. You should observe the major servers to figure that out.

I play on a major server. I am a Titan Builder and I had to MINE RESOURCES on that server to spawn the thing. At the time it was Vanilla, so it was hard.

Hogwash. resource gathering is the only POINT to PvP or PvE or whatever.

Um.

So, what you are saying is that staring at a planet or asteroid, pointing my cubish salvager at it, and depressing mouse2 is the reason I build massive ships? Are you insane? This is the most boring and repetitive activity in Starmade we are talking about! And your suggestion is to add MORE?

Oh God.

This is actually practiced by a LOT of servers, just scroll through the list on the vote site. But I'm not going to get in to a "whose server is better and why" shouting match. My current server does not do it (things like shop spawns are turned DOWN, since it's a hardcore survival server), but is an amazing and welcome server to play on regardless. My prior server had 30 shops in every system, and a billion credits could be attained in your first hour of gameplay, but I'm not going to be shaming them for what they do if that's how they want to play.

I know it is. I've had to deal with a lot of backlash at MushroomFleet because we DON'T do it. We don't give out freebies or play favorites. Just because everyone else is doing it doesn't make it right.

However, even on a hardcore survival server, the point is the same. The only real dangerous time on the server is from the moment you start until you are able to easily surpass and farm pirates. Once you pass that point, its easy sailing unless you either poke other factions with sticks or have a troll come hang out. Once you get to that point, resource acquisition becomes easy and you can be well on your way to a titan.

Well, yes - PvE is very lacking in the game. That doesn't give folks a clean sailing, however. You still have to spend mind-numbing amounts of time to get the resources

I think the issue is that there isnt really as much risk on bringing in the titan as there seems. As stated once it has been constructed and BP'd, there's very little risk in fielding it. A smart player wont lose their titan in most battles. The real issue, however, is the exponential rate at which someone can advance once they are at this point.

Little risk in fielding it? Have you fought in a war before? Brother, I learned the hard way not to field a Titan on a whim. I pissed off the admins and they admin-spawned their biggest ships to kill me. And the rate of advancement is limited by the players in your faction at all times. It doesn't magically grow exponentially. You can only salvage so much at one time.

I think now is the perfect time to discuss these things, while the game is in alpha, while the communities input is welcome, while things are at least a little easier to change than they would be once the game is complete. Its the whole reason that there's a suggestions forum, and a council. I agree that the game balance isnt done yet, that all the core features arent in yet, but by discussing these things now we may provide a glimmer of insight to the devs. They may read our ramblings and essays on how we see the game and have an idea not one of us has suggested, but they may not have had if it werent for our discussions on the issue.

If we were discussing the role of Titans in future, *release* gameplay, we wouldn't be having a discussion on the survival aspects as they pertain to today's builds. Nor would we be looking at lag as a factor. A ton of the people here obviously want their restrictions on Titans imposed tomorrow, as opposed to when the game is actually released and we have the full picture.

The main issue right now is that the devs haven't subscribed to a WHY yet. We don't have a clear cut roadmap to their intentions on the game's development. Especially after wedtm's disturbing statements about Schine not wanting more players to join the community (among other things), I have little confidence in anyone but schema.

 

[jorgekorke]

I play on a major server. I am a Titan Builder and I had to MINE RESOURCES on that server to spawn the thing. At the time it was Vanilla, so it was hard.

You said you've played on MF. IMHO, not a major server.

When I say that "it is easy to get titans" and "titans don't come from mining", I mention people like the CoK and the Odium pact managing to bring million-mass ships on a server that's just been reset for like a week or two. That didn't came from mining, I'm totally sure about it.

 

[Mered4]

You said you've played on MF. IMHO, not a major server.

When I say that "it is easy to get titans" and "titans don't come from mining", I mention people like the CoK and the Odium pact managing to bring million-mass ships on a server that's just been reset for like a week or two. That didn't came from mining, I'm totally sure about it.

If ti didn't come from mining, it's not legit.

And MushroomFleet IS a major server. There's literally no debate here. We put out more content on Youtube alone then every other server combined, and our active playerbase is consistently on par with every other *major* server out there.

Admin abuse can not and will not be considered as a part of this debate.

 

[jorgekorke]

Admin abuse can not and will not be considered as a part of this debate.

None of their members are admins.

 

[Dire Badger]

So, what you are saying is that staring at a planet or asteroid, pointing my cubish salvager at it, and depressing mouse2 is the reason I build massive ships? Are you insane? This is the most boring and repetitive activity in Starmade we are talking about! And your suggestion is to add MORE?

If you have a problem with resource gathering, you are playing the wrong game.

and resource gathering includes looting pirate bases, and fighting and looting other players. It is a core mechanic. I am certainly hoping 'maintenance' becomes an issue, so as to improve the need for resource gathering.

You honestly think what... you are playing a spaceship fighting game? There are hundreds of other 'spaceship fighting games' out there. You don't need to encourage this one in the direction. It is, at it's core, a 4x sandbox, not a shooter.

btw, that 'oh god' passive aggressive crybaby crap is not impressive. Try to keep things relevant instead of indulging in hand-wringing histrionics.
[DOUBLEPOST=1434386256,1434385746][/DOUBLEPOST]Minecraft

And as for resource gathering being the only point to the game: I really hope that changes somewhere down the line. A game consisting entirely of build and grind is not a good game (even if the build part is fantastic).

I think millions of minecraft players might disagree with you. As would the billions in Notch's bank account.

 

[QuantumAnomaly]

Little risk in fielding it? Have you fought in a war before? Brother, I learned the hard way not to field a Titan on a whim. I pissed off the admins and they admin-spawned their biggest ships to kill me. And the rate of advancement is limited by the players in your faction at all times. It doesn't magically grow exponentially. You can only salvage so much at one time.

I have, and I've many time jumped away to freedom when my ship hits 25% left on shields. It's a tactical sense more than anything. If you chose to take on a fleet on your own without a backup jump drive charged, that's on you. Pissed off a faction bigger than you? That's on you. What I mean is that as it pertains to the gameplay elements in the game, once you're big it's fairly easy to keep getting bigger unless you make a mistake of your own since there is currently no money sink in game other than making a bigger ship. Some kind of maintenance, or fuel, or etc. that has been discussed above should be in game to help curb the infinite growth mechanic that is currently available.

If we were discussing the role of Titans in future, *release* gameplay, we wouldn't be having a discussion on the survival aspects as they pertain to today's builds. Nor would we be looking at lag as a factor. A ton of the people here obviously want their restrictions on Titans imposed tomorrow, as opposed to when the game is actually released and we have the full picture.

The main issue right now is that the devs haven't subscribed to a WHY yet. We don't have a clear cut roadmap to their intentions on the game's development.

We have a much more clear roadmap than we did, since the devs released, specifically, a roadmap showing what they are working on. How it addresses the issues at hand, we have some information on, more than we did in the past.

And we need to discuss titans in their current AND future states, because that's how an alpha works. What is currently broken, what are ideas to fix it, and what is the expected ideal state when viewed from the player? It is not my position to speak on what the devs are actually doing, and I dont care for their inner politics so long as updates keep coming out. What I do care about is sharing my input for the game in hopes of helping it reach the most ideal state for all players.

And MushroomFleet IS a major server. There's literally no debate here. We put out more content on Youtube alone then every other server combined, and our active playerbase is consistently on par with every other *major* server out there.

Admin abuse can not and will not be considered as a part of this debate.

2 things on this quote alone and I'm dropping it. I dont feel like we should be discussing specific servers, be it by sword rattling, or flag-waving, here. That belongs in the servers forum. This is a discussion on gigantism, and its effects on single player or multiplayer, WITHOUT boasting about who's better than whom. I've heard that there are just as many problems from MF as there are positives (as with any server, none are perfect), so let's keep it at that and remain civil about the topic at hand by merely saying that there is a server out there for every playstyle, and how those servers or playstyles interact without pointing fingers or raising banners.

And 2, in your previous quote of pissing off an admin and having them spawn a ridiculous number of pirates, it sounds exactly like you are trying to discuss admin abuse in this topic. Whether it was warranted (by you breaking some rule) or not (by you or the admin just being a jerk) it is not the kind of event that would happen in general gameplay and has nothing to do with how titans interact with other players in the average game (special one-off, rare coincidences should be treated as outliers in the equation).

 

[Pacific_Jim]

Minecraft isn't just grind and build though, exploration is a very big part of the equation for resource gathering in a way that you can't really replicate in Starmade, just from the nature of how the games work. Minecraft also benefits from simplicity, which makes its survival oriented mechanics much easier to deal with. Beyond food (which is pretty trivial to get) I can't really think of any "maintenance" grinding in the vanilla game.

No one is saying to remove resource acquisition from the game entirely, but honestly there's enough of it in the game as is. The only change I would make on this front is shop inventories, but that's another thing entirely.

 

[Dire Badger]

Arrows, but you are right in that the focus is different. modded minecraft is a very different story, and I am pretty sure that's where the majority of notch dollars come from.

As for exploration being irrelevant, That can very easily change. It's not on the roadmap, but it has been mentioned repeatedly that different stars may in the future have different available resources (a much more interesting asteroid distribution mechanic than the current one) and, once NPC's finally get hammered out, unique stations, NPC's, resources, etc could very readily make exploration entirely viable.

But resource gathering, 'loot' as it were, always has been and always will be the core mechanic for most open-ended games. Generally the problem is in finding adequate resource DUMPS, and I think some sort of fuel/ammunition or maintenance mechanic (such as changing shields into % damage reduction and adding a 'restore ship to prior saved point') would be an outstanding resource dump.

I am leaning more towards repair/refit/ammunition than fuel, however.

 

[Pacific_Jim]

Yeah, I forgot about arrows (though they're also not too hard to keep up on).

Back on Starmade, repair etc I am pretty fine with, and using up resources to repair your damaged ships and restock on fighters etc absolutely should be part of the game. The main reason I'm not for fuel as proposed (and to a lesser extent ammo, but I'm not as decided on that) is I'd rather not have the balance tied to consumables. In the case of big vs small I'd rather both be viable for different purposes, then one is completely over powered but you have to grind for every time you use it.

 

[QuantumAnomaly]

. Beyond food (which is pretty trivial to get) I can't really think of any "maintenance" grinding in the vanilla game.

No one is saying to remove resource acquisition from the game entirely, but honestly there's enough of it in the game as is. The only change I would make on this front is shop inventories, but that's another thing entirely.

Almost every item in Minecraft has SOME kind of maintenance. Shovels, picks, axes, all degrade with use and require more materials to replace. The early game is more prevalent than the end game in this regard, where having multiple replacement picks or shovels is par for the course. There's no upkeep on a salvage beam, which gives your exponential growth, and means that you dont have to be picky about what you harvest. In minecraft, there's a point in the early game to harvest certain mats over others, and not to waste time digging tunnels if you break in to a cave.

I agree we shouldnt remove resource mining, or add more to it. I do agree on shops and trade needing some kind of general overhaul, but I believe an additional economy sink (or three) would help balance things greatly, where the player might take more time deciding the right tool for the right job. Fighters, cruisers, and frigates would become our stone, iron, and diamond pickaxes. You dont want to use a diamond pick to chop a tree, the same way you wouldnt want to use a titan for general pirate hunting, due to the return on investment being negative.

 

[KiloZulu]

My main complaint with massive ships isn't the ships themselves, but the servers that change configure settings to make them overly inviting. If you boost the settings so that a 1km long vessel handles like a fighter, you're going to promote massive ships. How many players would fly such large ships if it took them two minutes to turn the boat around? That fun lasted about a day for me before I went back to building ships small enough to maintain some measure of maneuverability.

Secondly, it propagates the need for larger pirate vessels in a bid to maintain some sort of challenge for these large ships - this comes at the expense of new and casual players who don't have the resources to build on a such a massive scale. Far from making the game stand apart from other voxel games and drawing in new players, this alone pushes new players away.

 

[QuantumAnomaly]

One thing I totally agree on is giving server owners and admins more tools when it comes to pirates. Pirate strength should grow with player ship size or something of the sort, so that new players still fight smaller pirates, but giving some options to provide challenge to players who've made bigger ships and want to fight an all-out PvE war against a tough pirate faction who has had just about enough of the player's crap lol. Scaling pirates is something I really hope the dev's allow with more ease in the future

 

[Pacific_Jim]

Pirates I think should be scaled by both what the player is piloting and location I think.

 

[Mered4]

Titans shouldn't be discouraged - they should be given a place in the game instead of being treated as a problem. Owning a Titan is just a step in the progression - at some point, everyone will get to it. Only if they avoid this step entirely and delve directly into fleet building and network creation does a player NOT build a Titan. It's a ship that should be the foundation of your fleet. It's easy to crush an unprepared enemy without one, and two Titans clashing on the same battlefield can be a potentially epic confrontation.

In the current build, this simply isn't possible. Server lag tends to turn large fleet-oriented battles into jerky click-fests. Titans are very difficult to make in Vanilla survival, much less keep due to the linear progression of Vanilla Survival. The opportunity cost for any ship is too high for PvP. After all, if you lose your one Titan, it's going to take a long time to get it back, right? The same could be said for repairing those ships. I know quite a few players who won't fight unless they have an insane advantage where there is almost zero risk.

All this includes not introducing clunky fuel mechanics, adding to the already arduous task of resource gathering, or making Titans even less efficient than they already are. We need to let the new gameplay mechanics (Fleet control, BP repairing, Shipyards, HP system, etc) become a part of Starmade before we start throwing Titan builders under the bus.

 

[QuantumAnomaly]

Titans shouldn't be discouraged ... We need to let the new gameplay mechanics become a part of Starmade before we start throwing Titan builders under the bus.

I feel that almost everyone in this discussion agrees with you, and that the majority are not throwing titan builders under the bus. However, it is beneficial to talk about these things because there are issues involved, both in their current state and possible future states. I can think of a few ways things like the HP update might make titans even MORE powerful. That doesnt mean anyone is personally attacking your playstyle or hating on anyone building titans, as MOST of the posts in this discussion have stated.

And you still seem to completely disregard the points I made earlier about time investment not being part of the issue. Any two players with equal amounts of time, the one using all of their resources on a titan will in most cases win out in every way unless the other player builds a titan and a drone carrier. This isnt inherently a bad thing, it merely goes to show that there is not much diversity in the playerbase, there are military ones and creative ones, and no real room for any other type of player.