Recognized Fleet Maintenance (Repair and Resupply)

[Criss]

Automation:

This is something we need to be careful of. Schema and others have made note of this before, when I brought it up. Automation is not gameplay, it's automation. We don't want the game playing itself. However, once a faction has reached a certain size I think automation is the answer. Instead of playing a blocky space sim you are playing a full scale 4x strategy game. At that point automation becomes practical and doesn't detract from the new gameplay that you would experience on that scale. This is where I would like automation to become relevant.

Core Anchor:

Using rails for the core anchor is probably something the others have thought of as well. It makes sense with the new ones. IMO we shouldn't have to rely on a core anchor. If a ship fits it should be usable with a shipyard. There are probably technical problems with that approach, as we do have an anchor after all. I would prefer rail use.

Repair:

The reason shipyards repair in this manor is because the ship does not hold onto the original design. This is something you pointed out. Repair as the way you want it only can happen when there is something to compare it to. Until then, it will need to rebuild the entire thing from a separate design. If we can move away from that system and have straight repair mechanics, that would be great.

On ships:

Pretty much planned. This does require some balancing of course. There are many ways to do it. We will likely tie it into the crew system. Ships that make use of such features should rely on more than one crew member (yourself) and you will need to ensure your crew are happy and kept healthy. The cost of shipyards on ships would be through the cost of your crew. This is just a thought. There are no talks about changes to ship mechanics as we are not focusing on building atm.

Repair:

If it can happen, I imagine it will. Astrotech beams are useless right now and I can't imagine we would enter beta without proper repair mechanics.

Building:

Sounds and awful lot like space engineers. Are you proposing that we create construction vessels, before we place space station blueprints? That's another hurdle for a player to get over. I'm not sure we want to complicate the process, which in itself can already be quite a task for a new player who wants another full station. I could easily imagine a building process. Stations should certainly not appear instantly. Something similar to the shipyard build mechanic could find use here.

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

This is something we need to be careful of. Schema and others have made note of this before, when I brought it up. Automation is not gameplay, it's automation. We don't want the game playing itself. However, once a faction has reached a certain size I think automation is the answer. Instead of playing a blocky space sim you are playing a full scale 4x strategy game. At that point automation becomes practical and doesn't detract from the new gameplay that you would experience on that scale. This is where I would like automation to become relevant.

Oh yeah this is not something that would really be open to newer players. You would have to have a lot of infrastructure to feed the process with materials.

The reason shipyards repair in this manor is because the ship does not hold onto the original design. This is something you pointed out. Repair as the way you want it only can happen when there is something to compare it to. Until then, it will need to rebuild the entire thing from a separate design. If we can move away from that system and have straight repair mechanics, that would be great.

When you repair a ship using a design it deconstructs the ship and rebuilds it to that design. Couldn't the system compare the damaged ship to the design?

Pretty much planned. This does require some balancing of course. There are many ways to do it. We will likely tie it into the crew system.

I like that idea of making it crew based. I know some sentient AI players out there won't like it though.

Sounds and awful lot like space engineers. Are you proposing that we create construction vessels, before we place space station blueprints? That's another hurdle for a player to get over. I'm not sure we want to complicate the process, which in itself can already be quite a task for a new player who wants another full station. I could easily imagine a building process. Stations should certainly not appear instantly. Something similar to the shipyard build mechanic could find use here.

Stations that build them selves over time would be one solution, maybe a combination of the system, you spawn it in and it builds over time and you can help it build faster with astrotech ships. I just don't think there should be anyway to instantly acquire ships/stations.

 

[Criss]

Couldn't the system compare the damaged ship to the design?

I really don't know the technical side of things, but if it doesn't already do that, then it is likely because it is a more taxing convoluted process than you think. Not impossible to be sure, but maybe not worth it in Schemas eyes. Comparing a complete design and broken ship block by block is tedious. That is after all what you are asking for. To compare two things block by block and see if they match. It could be easier if we treated destroyed blocks as "temporarily gone" however that isn't a thing quite yet and probably takes some doing.

 

[Nickizzy]

Sounds and awful lot like space engineers. Are you proposing that we create construction vessels, before we place space station blueprints? That's another hurdle for a player to get over. I'm not sure we want to complicate the process, which in itself can already be quite a task for a new player who wants another full station. I could easily imagine a building process. Stations should certainly not appear instantly. Something similar to the shipyard build mechanic could find use here.

Ooh! Ooh! This was from my first post and first thread ever. Seems so long ago...

Anyway, this is what I had though of(I copy pasted because it's my own work, it's from my: ... ): ...

Hmm...

I lost it somehow. AI ideas thread. Whatever.

My idea was that astrotech would place blocks(only place in empty spaces) according to the design of the ship in the shipcore. Blueprints would only require a core and you would "repair" them up to make them. Stations would work the same way.
Astrotech beams would find the ship blueprint as a hologram(like in the shipyard), set that as the ship(in it's aim/hit hitbox. This wouldn't be seen by the player at all)'s hitbox, and any blocks already placed on the ship it would count as not there in it's aiming hitbox. Yes, this would mean a lot of times you would see them seemingly firing through blocks, but it would work so well with it's peircing ability and how it could work ok with AI.
The catch would be, the astrotech would place blocks from it's storage(think a reverse salvager) at one hp. Full armor, because that's not repairable, but the hitpoints would be one. Once all blocks of the design were placed(in that row with logic or manual fire, in the design in AI's hands), the astrotech would start healing blocks back up to full health.

Risk and reward for mobile repair system, but it can take time and leaves a ton of really weak blocks sitting around until done. Bonus because it looks awsome as a "scab" or "scar" on the ship.

My 20 so lines. Take what you want out of it.

 

[alterintel]

It could be easier if we treated destroyed blocks as "temporarily gone" however that isn't a thing quite yet and probably takes some doing.

^ This my friend is brilliant. :D
a very elegant solution. Simply stated a destroyed block would have it's hitpoints set to zero, and would have zero interaction with the game. Could appear as a holographic damaged block in build mode, and would be easily repairable with an astro-tech beam. Even better if the astro-tech beam had punch through.

Brilliant!

 

[Markus_McCloud]

I don't know exactly how the code works, but I'd assume that the OP suggestion of shipyard repair could be done with minimal changes to code. The shipyards read blueprints and make a list of all blocks and locations in a ship and place them one at a time, removing them from the list as they go. So why not check location, if location has block check block data to see if it matches the blueprint, if it does then skip placement, if not remove and replace. This would let the repair skip over chests with items in them and keep docked items on the rails.

I don't know how it would handle a docked item blocking a ship wall that is being built...perhaps that's the reason for delayed implementation?

Anyway, I'd really like for astrotech beams to be more functional. Of course, having repair bobby's target their mothership would also be nice.

I think the BOBBY AI could use a "friendly fire" mode in general, one that uses positive-attribute beams (i.e. Astrotech, Shield Supply, and Power Supply beams) on friendly targets. Ideally, it would have an "faction only" mode (fires only on its own faction) and a "faction + allies" mode. (fires on allied factions as well as its own)

 

[Criss]

imply stated a destroyed block would have it's hitpoints set to zero, and would have zero interaction with the game. Could appear as a holographic damaged block in build mode

All easier said than done I'm afraid.

 

[Ithirahad]

All easier said than done I'm afraid.

But not impossible. If doors can become tangible or intangible based on their activation bit, surely blocks can become active or inactive based on their damage bits.

 

[TheWurm]

Sounds and awful lot like space engineers. Are you proposing that we create construction vessels, before we place space station blueprints? That's another hurdle for a player to get over. I'm not sure we want to complicate the process, which in itself can already be quite a task for a new player who wants another full station. I could easily imagine a building process. Stations should certainly not appear instantly. Something similar to the shipyard build mechanic could find use here.

So what if you had to use a constructor ship for a station blueprint, but not a station you build from scratch? I mean you basically have to start your first base from scratch in order to have any materials to work with, so it wouldn't slow down the game too much. If friendly factions (trading guild stations) opened up their factories and shipyards for you to use you could pretty much get a construction ship up and running without ever having to lay a single block, ( which is a play through I want to have, only using pre made entities).

I don't know if many players start with spawning station blue prints, but I don't see any issues with requiring some sort of constructor ship.

 

[ltmauve]

Maybe flagging each chunk when it takes damage/gets changed, and then only having to check the damaged chunks?

I don't like the idea of "invisible blocks" as that means that if I do field repairs on my ship, it won't fix those once I get back to a shipyard.

 

[Jojomo]

Can you give a little more reason as to why it's ridiculous?

I'm not the person who posted that, but if you could replace blocks without actually having to posses and deploy the blocks needed, it would be a bit.....off.
If you could slave storage to an astrotech beam and have that replace missing blocks with stored blocks it would be much easier to swallow.

Also what about nomadic players? Their ships may not be too big for a shipyard but they still need a way to build and maintain ships not tied to a single point.

They can already use astrotech to repair damaged blocks, and use stored blocks to repair missing blocks by hand. Sounds pretty appropriate for a nomad to me....

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

I'm not the person who posted that, but if you could replace blocks without actually having to posses and deploy the blocks needed, it would be a bit.....off.
If you could slave storage to an astrotech beam and have that replace missing blocks with stored blocks it would be much easier to swallow.

I entirely agree, this method would have to pull blocks from storage just like a shipyard. I mentioned that in the original post

They can already use astrotech to repair damaged blocks, and use stored blocks to repair missing blocks by hand. Sounds pretty appropriate for a nomad to me....

You can take entire sections of your ship off with advance build mode and simply hit undo and all damage will be repaired, much easier than astro-beams and can even get those hard to reach areas. The percentage of combat where you loose shields and only come away with superficial damage is extremely low. Most of my ships are equipped with cannon/beam/punch so no amount of astro-beams ever have a chance to repair any ship that is hit once with these guns without shields.

 

[Jojomo]

Most of my ships are equipped with cannon/beam/punch so no amount of astro-beams ever have a chance to repair any ship that is hit once with these guns without shields.

I kind of feel like if someone wants to be a nomad, then it's their responsibility to design an appropriate ship for that role: internal maintenance tunnels, hull shapes that enable ease of access to internal systems, or perhaps slightly simpler systems than a ship that has major infrastructure supporting it, etc.

If a nomad really needs to repair internal stuff they can't astrotech or replace by hand (which like I said, I think they should accept responsibility for: their ship design and nomadic lifestyle is their choice) they can always stop at a planet or station for a while and setup a small yard for some serious repair.

For everyone else there's already shipyards...

 

[Lukwan]

I wholeheartedly agree with OP. Shipyards were a great idea but so far they have failed to deliver a reliable solution for maintenance. If the bugs were not so horrendous I would actually use Shipyards for building and repair. The features that SYs were released with did not function and subsequent updates have not made them a reliable option. Please, Schine ...fix the Shipyards!. I have had trouble with turrets, logic-links, transporter labels, display-text, symmetry and missing blocks. Only a couple issues have been addressed so far. I would be quite happy to repair battle damage in the SY by disintegrating my ship and rebuilding from design...if that actually worked properly.

Alternate approach to repair:

Hand-held Astrotech beam

 

[Jojomo]

I wholeheartedly agree with OP. Shipyards were a great idea but so far they have failed to deliver a reliable solution for maintenance. If the bugs were not so horrendous I would actually use Shipyards for building and repair. The features that SYs were released with did not function and subsequent updates have not made them a reliable option. Please, Schine ...fix the Shipyards!. I have had trouble with turrets, logic-links, transporter labels, display-text, symmetry and missing blocks. Only a couple issues have been addressed so far. I would be quite happy to repair battle damage in the SY by disintegrating my ship and rebuilding from design...if that actually worked properly.

Alternate approach to repair:

Hand-held Astrotech beam

That sounds like the solution is fixing shipyards then. Not necessary to go overboard and turn astrotech into a block placer...

 

[Lukwan]

oh no...not necessary... I go overboard for the fun of it. :D

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

Not necessary to go overboard and turn astrotech into a block placer...

Shipyards can't build shipyards/stations or ships generally too large for shipyards or repair ships on the go for a nomadic life style.

 

[Jojomo]

1. Shipyards can't build shipyards/stations
   
2. or ships generally too large for shipyards
   
3. or repair ships on the go for a nomadic life style.

Dot point numbers added by me.

But none of those issues are part of your OP.

1. Why not ask for yards to be able to also build stations instead then? Capital ships will then erase this concern.
2. Build a bigger yard! This is not a good complaint...
3. IMHO nomads should realise and accept that a nomadic lifestyle has cons as well as pros. Of course repair will be less convenient without established infrastructure (as it should be, or infrastructure becomes redundant).

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

Dot point numbers added by me.

But none of those issues are part of your OP.

1. Why not ask for yards to be able to also build stations instead then? Capital ships will then erase this concern.
2. Build a bigger yard! This is not a good complaint...
3. IMHO nomads should realise and accept that a nomadic lifestyle has cons as well as pros. Of course repair will be less convenient without established infrastructure (as it should be, or infrastructure becomes redundant).

Actually being able to build stations from blueprints using a construction ship is part of the original post...

Stations building stations is not really feasible, I would have to build a station by hand just so I can use it to spawn my station in? How does that make sense? The entire point of this suggestion is to completely remove the spawning aspect of blueprints. The problem is there is no way to do this without providing an alternative method to spawning in stations and large ships. "Build a bigger shipyard" may be a decent argument against building ships but it simply does not work against a station spawning method.

 

[Jojomo]

Actually being able to build stations from blueprints using a construction ship is part of the original post...

Stations building stations is not really feasible, I would have to build a station by hand just so I can use it to spawn my station in? How does that make sense? The entire point of this suggestion is to completely remove the spawning aspect of blueprints. The problem is there is no way to do this without providing an alternative method to spawning in stations and large ships. "Build a bigger shipyard" may be a decent argument against building ships but it simply does not work against a station spawning method.

Build a capital ship with a yard, in a stationary yard. Build stations in the yard of the capital ship. (When capital ships are implemented, of course)
And yes, if you don't posses a shipyard anywhere, you should have to build one by hand to bootstrap the process chain.

There's no need to change astrotech to get rid of magic spawning from blueprints. Capital ships, yards building stations, and fixing the problems yards have will do it without astrotech magic.

As far as I can tell, being "able to conveniently repair ships that are not destroyed and replace those that were" is the core motive for your suggestion, but if astrotech becomes as convenient (or even anywhere remotely close to it) for building or repairing destroyed blocks, shipyards will become obsolete.
That would be a pity, because they're (conceptually, if not in practice thanks to their bugginess) a fantastic game mechanic.
If astrotech isn't made anywhere close to being as convenient as a yard, then I don't see how it satisfies your primary motive.