Planned Fleet Formations

    Fleet formations

    • 1 formation for all

    • Drop down list in fleet menu

    • Dynamic formation (changes on orders)


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    I'm sure everyone has their favorite, sadly the starting formation isn't mine (bit of a collision nightmare). Sadly most formations are aircraft based and thus flawed in they need to account for gravity, vision and turbulence (none of which apply in space). Here are my suggestions for a formation (and it's math) as a good non-colliding default:
    • Flagship used as start/center of formation and it's dimensions are the 'default' spacing.
    • Spacing is fixed based on the mean dimensions of the Flagship: (X + Y + Z)/3 = length
    • Ships 2-5 form an vertical cross (up, down, left right) where their nose is located 1 length behind the flagships nose
    • Ships 6-9 form an X (think drawn from the corners of a square) and their noses are 2 length behind the flagships nose.
    • Ships 10-13, Cross @ 3 length
    • Ships 14-17, X @ 4 length
    • repeats Cross & X each layer adding one length
    The result is a wedge/pyramid formation (from the side) where everyone has a clean shot at a forward/rear target. The math means fairly simple position for the AI and ship order is defined in the Fleet menu. The default spacing could me 'longest' dimension instead of the mean to lower collision even more.

    So, what's your 3D formation suggestion?
     
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    I think your onto something here,maybe have sphere and raster formation(line breaking left right for attack)
     

    Lone_Puppy

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    I agree, it should be less aircrafty. That's what I noticed first time playing with the dev builds.
    I think we will get there with a few more updates!
    This is something I think Schema could build into it now too. It's mechanics are already there in the aircraft formation. He just has to add the additional spots below/above for ships to reside.
     

    Lone_Puppy

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    After reading posts from others I see me calling them "Formations" is not appropriate.
    Calling them "Battle Groups" or just "Groups" would be better.
     

    Criss

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    There will certainly be more formations. Obviously the system is not perfect yet. We will expand on them over time.
     
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    This would be much farther in the future, but how about user-configurable formations, which could possibly even be "saved" in a library similar to blueprints, for recall whenever? Which would mean that the player could either fly the ships into position, then save the formation (no thanks); or could use a nice GUI similar in structure to the map, where you could modify the formation in a 3d sense? Obviously, take into account the spacing as described above as well as a default formation.
     
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    Here are my ideas for formations and their justifications.

    Line (forward facing):
    If you are barreling straight at an enemy they have to shoot through the ship in front of you before they can get to you. Good for many small ships flying towards a single, well defended base. Typical formation for civilian travel in a peaceful sector.

    Line (side facing):
    This is a line of defense. Everyone gets a 360 rotation plus some, and the end points get almost full 3d rotation. This is more cinematic and traditional than practical. It depends primarily upon the dimensions of the target.

    Square (side facing):
    A wall of defense, though the ships in the middle have less view. This is more about forcing enemy movement around the formation, or protecting something behind the wall, or blocking view.

    Solid Cube (or sphere) (forward facing):
    A wall of defense designed to make it difficult for the enemy to get to the ships in the middle of the cube. Also can be used as a square (side facing) formation but with back-up ships. Also good for having buff ships in the middle of the cube and fighting ships outside the cube. This is also good for trade caravans and escorts - protected but moving in a specific direction.

    Solid Cube (or sphere) (outward facing):
    A formation used after battle has progressed and the fleet is surrounded on all sides and needs to play defense. A formation designed to surround and protect a stationary entity, like a planet or station.

    Hollow Cube (or sphere) (inward facing):
    This formation would be something used after the fight has progressed, and heaven help the enemy ship that gets caught inside.

    Elongated Cube (forward facing):
    Like a single file line, but with buffer ships on the outside and non-combat on the inside. A straw, where the plastic is battleship and the inside of the straw is mining ships, civilians and trade ships. A trade caravan would use this formation when traveling through enemy sectors, with the cargo in the center of the line. Good as a blockade running or payload escort. Has better potential for scatter-and-flee tactics than a cube formation because it is harder to surround because of the shape.

    Wedge (pyramid, facing tip) (OP suggested formation):
    This formation is designed to force through cubes and walls, to create openings for other ally ships or to separate enemy ships from each other. The strongest ships are at the tip (front), weakest at the base (back).

    Inverted Wedge (pyramid, facing base):
    This formation is designed to function like a net or funnel. The strongest ships are at the base (front) and weakest at the tip (back).

    Arrow:
    A combination of Wedge and Line, literally an arrow with a pyramid tip. The emphasis is on the size of the pyramid, not the length of the line. Excellent for forcing through formations. This is something that would be used by a bomber (line) and escort (wedge). The Line formation is good when charging a single ship, the Arrow is better for charging at a fleet because the line is protected from more angles.


    I also think that every formation should have 3 variant settings: tight spacing, normal spacing, wide spacing. Each spacing is just a multiplier of the largest ship's dimensions, for example tight is 1x, normal is 2x, wide is 4x.

    I also think that every formation should have an inverted setting. The formation turns around, but none of the ships move - they just turn. For example, lets say we have the following ships and direction of orientation:
    A -->
    B -->
    C -->

    Notice that Ship A is to the left of ship B (according to the way they face). So if the formation turned around:
    <-- C
    <-- B
    <-- A

    The outside ships have to fly full circles. Ship A is still on the left for ship B. But if you just did an inversion, you would get:
    <--A
    <--B
    <--C
    Where the ships stay in the same spot, but turn around. Now Ship A is on the right of Ship B.
     
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    Yeah, right now my frigate missiles are useless while in formation as they fire out the side right into the other ships.
     
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    Also, would it be possible to have sub-fleets? Let's say I have 2 fleets shaped like ">" wedges and one fleet shaped like a "--" line, is there a way I could make a fleet of my three fleets shaped like "<-->"? The mother fleet orients the capital ships, and then the sub-fleets organize around their respective capital. The thought gives me the RTS shivers. :)

    As a side note, I'm curious whether fleet formations will be used in the flora/fauna update. It would be cool to have creatures have a pack or herd "formation," particularly if the creature is semi-intelligent. Elephants, when attacked, form defensive circles around their young, wolves circle around their prey and attack from blind spots, geese fly in V shapes, and I'm sure cavemen had slings and stone throwers from afar while others went in with spears.

    If we get creatures that live in space, they might have flight patterns in addition to sleep or defensive patterns, or just a general colony formation.
     
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    I don't think static assignment of ships is a good idea, i.e. ships 1-4 go here, ships 5-8 go here, etc. There is now a points-based system evaluating ships on offensive and defensive capability. There should be a drop-down command list of battle group formations, and based on the formations selected, the offensive and defensive ships maneuver to appropriate areas. Take a look at U.S. Carrier Group tactics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - as starship battle groups' formations should be largely based on oceanic fleet tactics, except that you have to think three-dimensional to protect above and below. High defensive and offense ships should go to the front line, followed by high-offense/low-defense ships like missile frigates/bombardment craft, followed by low/no-offense and carriers. A clickable designation in the fleets window (similar to the faction module permissions of 4, 3, 2, 1, F, P) could be used here to designate ships as fighters, corvettes (small craft), destroyers, cruisers, battleships, carriers, or transports.

    The structural Hit Points system has also changed the way ship tactics should be done. Back when cores were the target, ships were just one massive cannon to penetrate and destroy the core. Now ships are truly back to more of a traditional "ship of the line" where they should have broadsides of dozens of weapons to penetrate and cause as much structural damage as possible. Along with the comments from whooplaah and Sven_The_Slayer , ships should turn to present whichever side has the most firepower towards an enemy or direction according to the formation ordered.

    Lastly, I strongly agree with whooplaah in that fleets need sub-fleets. Fleet commanders will need to be able to group fighters into flights, squadrons, wings, or groups so they move in formations and act under one command. This would be useful for flanking or pincer maneuvers as well to split a battle groups into multiple elements to take advantage of potential weaknesses in an enemy ship or fleet.
     
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    Not to be a pain, but thinking naval fleet tactics in three dimensions is like three-dimensional chess.
    It's a tactical and strategic nightmare.

    Those tactics DO NOT WORK, because StarMade ranges do not really allow for massive shots from afar, because everything has similar ranges. Also, small ships or fighters do not, at present, have a super-high-alpha weapon approximately divebombers' bombs or destroyers' torpedoes.
    (Come on Schine, get us some super-powered warheads already----we need our proton torpedoes/unguided warhead torpedoes dropped from fighter craft)

    Really we need a squadrons or subfleets option that allows for the flagship of a fleet to be in another fleet. Namely, bomber #1 is in carrier #1's fleet, while carrier 1 is in battleship #1's fleet. Bombers 2-12 are in carrier #1's fleet, allowing for (With an option for "Fighter Strike" or "Bomber Strike", which works like mining in that every ship but the flagship moves forwards and attacks a vessel or sector) one squadron to attack in formation, while the battleships engage in another.
     
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    maybe sometime in the future, implement a 'battle mode' and a Homeworld-ish tactical overlay on the map, which would be great for fleet formations and large scale battles. This would add another dimension of gameplay to make StarMade even awesomer
     
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    A few suggestions. They throw some behaviors in with the formations, however, which may need to be 2 separate things.
    First, an orbital formation.
    This just assigns an entity, inside or outside the fleet, to the vessels. They then proceed to patrol around it, in 3D space, not just 2 dimensions, leading to, basically, an orbit. This is only ever assigned to escort vessels, because you don't really need traders just floating around aimlessly, so the vessels are then preprogrammed to attack any hostiles in the area.

    Second, a trading formation.
    Whatever shape you want, these entities just automatically flee in battle. They can be arranged, most likely, in a line astern ( <--- <--- <--- ) or a group of say 4 lines basically forming a selection of ship "blocks".

    Battlefleet.
    Yep. A fleet of ships. Starting with the flagship in the center. Arrayed in front is everything from the 2-10 slots, or something like that, and arrayed to the sides and rear of those are the rest of the vessels. These first 10 form a point (mothership), and then a hemisphere in front of that point. Basically, a wedge formation but without specific locations, just general areas to be in. Whichever's easiest to code. The rest of the vessels are placed mathematically: starting at 0 degrees in the circle formed when facing the rear of the command vessel, you place ships. Subdivide 360* among remaining vessels to determine additional placements by incremental changes in degrees. Thus, with 10 ships, they are spaced 36* apart around this initial formation. Once you get to, say, 18 vessels in this formation (20* apiece), you could start a new row behind and maybe even inside that one. Then, continue pattern until you come up with a point ship at the rear, directly aft of the mothership. This results in a globe of ships with the mothership inside, placed not at the exact center but towards the front of that center, to be close to the action if it's a battleship and yet still protected if it's not. Tactics are based on individual ships, honestly; however, if I'm not able to pick fighters vs bombers vs Titans to set up a different assault style, it's gonna be sit-and-shoot tactics. Minimum of maneuvering, steady gunfire. Ships support each other - if mothership targets vessel, all vessels target hostile vessel. Or if you, the player overlord of the galaxy, press F on something ... game over for them.

    Lastly, fighter group formation. Also bombers.
    This arrays like a flock of geese. You have the point ship (mothership or designated command vessel), 4 vessels in a pyramid formation slightly behind that, and spread out significantly. Behind each of those, you have 2 ships, spread towards the outside of this pyramid. You then have a staggered wall of fighters with a LOT of space between them. This makes sense - it is a tactical advantage to divide up hostile firepower. Plus you won't be wiped by missile area damage all at once. This works for bombers too. You would have maybe 6 ships or so inside this staggered pyramid formation, in order to have some follow-up to this wall, once you get out to 3 tiers or whatever.
    -Not designed for heavy battlefleets, because it's more for slashing hit-and-run assaults. The tactics this would receive are to make assault runs on hostile vessels, not stick around and duel it out.
     
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    I would prefer to be able to arrange ships myself, save that arrangement as a formation,
    then order that formation (or other saved formation) dynamically with a hotbar command.

    But that's probably a lot to ask!
    ;)