Energy System

[Gamel]

The economy system is always the weak point of this game currently.
Maybe Schema already have a lot of thoughts about it and planning to do it step by step.
Like for the Gold Bar for credits. And Mushroom Fleet have the smuggling drugs role play.
But still, gold bar and drugs are currently useless blocks compare to something like harden hulls

And Now, I suggest a huge change to the economy and power system of the game
I am thinking a system that let the power generator to use fuel, ie. energy crystal.
But not generate power from nothing. Just like Minecraft, when you need to burn things,
you need wood or coal or charcoal as fuel to generate heat power for cooking or smelting.

For example, maybe one block of energy crystal can let one block of HCT xm3.4 Power Block
to use for 100000s or let 100 blocks of HCT xm3.4 to use for 1000s.
Without feeding any energy crystals into the power system(maybe a plex storage link to
HCT xm3.4 with c&v), no power will be generated.

In this case, there will be more reasons to fight with pirates or other players, not just to get loot,
also to snatch energy crystals. The Energy War of Space.

But this system causes a problem, what if you have bankrupt and
don't have any energy crystals to feed and fly your ship?
In this case, I suggest the solar panel, solar panel generate power slowly when facing the sun
So, you just need a few solar panels to keep the ship for travel use
but it won't be able to support ship for combat use, coz it's regene is too slow.

And to get energy crystals, I suggest it can be...
1.)directly mine from planets
2.)Convert from other crystals using factory system
3.)Energy collect from solar panel and convert into energy crystals using factory system
4.)buy/sell in stores

For further more,
I think we can also make bullet and missiles "Physical", ie. we need to produce the bullets in factories
And feed them into weapon with plex storage to shoot.

 

[Kinseth]

Please add this. I really have little else to say on the matter than what has been stated. As for the ammunition... one step at a time. I don't know how much I support that. The weapons involved would need to be powerful enough to warrant the extra production, though I do like the idea of a few more systems to take up the excess space on my ships.

 

[starhaiden]

this idea will make it more like space engineers.\
what about this you need a fusion and fission reactor to make power you connect the fusion rector to the fission and it will produce power or you could keep the same power as we have now but add a power block that needs fuel to produce energy and it produces a lot more then the power we have now

 

[Zeno9141]

This was suggested before, a couple of times, and it did not end well.
Allow me to start right at the core of the problem with fuel; It's micromanagement.

It might be fun on the short run, but eventually it will be a bother. A huge pain in the ass.

...Also, why does everything have to be more realistic? Is realistic truly fun? Is micromanagement entertaining?
^ Just a few things to ponder about.

A few links to earlier threads about fuel (Some get quite flamey):
http://starmadedock.net/threads/power-crystals.1702/ (Oh gods the flames)
http://starmadedock.net/threads/fuel-all-opinions-accepted-and-wanted.1761/ (Sums up about everything on fuel)

 

[NeonSturm]

I really like ships powering their storage up near stars (StarGate Universe: Destiny).

Fuel would be a nice soft cap for max ship size, as over-sized ships just need too much fuel to maintain all the time (maybe just 1 flag ship per faction)...
But the player should be able to choose when to use that fuel.


But I worry about utterly emptied sol-systems around spawn, as small starter-ships can not store power as efficient as large ships.

There should be at least some back-up. Some very low power gain even if you are in the mid of nowhere. Core-energy for a very small escape pod, reactors always producing 5% even without fuel, etc.

Maybe fuel should only be required for warp (when small ships can use warp gates without fuel as these are powered by solars?)



I think though solar blocks which have to be a topmost or lowest block to work are a good idea (especially as it favors power-supply-beam + solar drones if you want these precious blocks protected during battles and add more RP)
But it would need AI being able to fly into a hangar and re-dock at the last used dock spot if you broadcast a command to your AI-power drones (Or maybe more players will suggest/request pistons for solar blocks more often )



You have left me without vote-choice,

as I want fuel, but I want it in a way that you don't have to pay
except if you want highly cost-efficient high-tech stuff on which regenerative energy blocks (more solar or free energy) would cost more fuel than the fuel requirements over the expected life time of drones, dis-integrator-missiles or suicidal combat ships.

 

[TwoNiner]

This was suggested before, a couple of times, and it did not end well.
Allow me to start right at the core of the problem with fuel; It's micromanagement.

It might be fun on the short run, but eventually it will be a bother. A huge pain in the ass.

...Also, why does everything have to be more realistic? Is realistic truly fun? Is micromanagement entertaining?
^ Just a few things to ponder about.

A few links to earlier threads about fuel (Some get quite flamey):
http://starmadedock.net/threads/power-crystals.1702/ (Oh gods the flames)
http://starmadedock.net/threads/fuel-all-opinions-accepted-and-wanted.1761/ (Sums up about everything on fuel)

I have to agree, if this were to be implemented you would likely find me sitting at my base not doing anything in fear of wasting fuel, because having to acquire more would be a huge pain in the arse.

 

[jayman38]

I voted no, feeling that this would be unpleasant micromanagement.

Caveats:
1. I am making the probably-wrong assumption that power generation will be primarily fusion-based in this universe.
2. H2O (water in its various forms) would provide key fuel for this fusion, at least in the game universe, to keep it simple.
3. Any Power-core factory mechanic should be forced to include at least a couple of Ice Crystal or Water blocks in the crafting formula (either should work, but would provide the fuel for the power cores.)
4. In the finished game, there should be a "maintenance fee" that pops up randomly like I see in OoLite which covers basics like refreshing life support systems and fueling up your power cores. This maintenance fee should scale to the number of cores your ship contains.

By using pre-existing ice crystals as your main form of fuel, you don't need any new kinds of blocks.

Similarly, caveats for engine blocks:
1. I am making the probably-wrong assumption that sub-light propulsion will be provided by super-accelerating ions into a stream opposite of the direction you want to go, utilizing equal-and-opposite-reaction physics.
2. Any block could provide ions.
3. Any engine block factory mechanic should include at least one random, non-tech (non-hull, non-power-core, non-etc...) block to use for an ion mass store. Again, we might want to stick with ice crystals.
4. The maintenance fee discussed above would also refresh engine ion mass.

Problem: By removing the micromanagement of fuel, you never really face the possibility of being stranded, or at least slowed greatly, by being out of fuel. See the Firefly episode "Out of Gas" for an idea of how interesting an out-of-fuel scenario can be. However, I do not think fuel micromanagement would be the appropriate response to this problem.

A better solution might be a maintenance timer. If you go longer than X hours without paying the maintenance fee when it pops up, there is a random chance every 5 minutes or so that your power cores and engines will suddenly start running at 10% efficiency, with a 50% cut in maximum speed. (Actually, those numbers might cut too much, making one suffer the wrath of a passing pirate.)

 

[Zeno9141]

By using pre-existing ice crystals as your main form of fuel, you don't need any new kinds of blocks.

There is one minor problem with that: They are abundant at the moment, and used for many things in shipbuilding. Making them a fuel would make them rare, which is exactly what we do not want to happen to the most valued lighting block in starmade history...

 

[jayman38]

You have uncovered my bias against ice crystals. The game in its current form seems to use them too much in my opinion, so I wanted to limit their use by making them less abundant. Assuming we could also use water as an equivalent fuel source that could be used in place of ice crystals, that might limit the impact. On the other hand, if by "fuel", we were talking about using ice crystals or water as a required component of a crafting formula, I don't think it would put much of a drain on the existing supply, seeing as how people will be mostly scavenging and buying cores and engines, versus factory-building. However, the crafting system may become much more popular in the (possibly near) future.

As for using any particular block type as a fuel that is used up as quickly as the OP suggests doesn't seem good to me at all. 100 power cores running for about 17 minutes on one block strikes me as expensive, no matter how common the fuel is. Extrapolate that consumption to an average server with multiple players, multiple ships per player, multiple 100-core power reactors per ship, running for hours on end, and you have a game where the primary play mechanic will become fuel-mining. Zeno, based on your first reply to this thread, I think you'll agree.

 

[kiddan]

If fuel was added I think I would like to be able to get it and use it right away by salvaging some liquid source and putting in into tanks...

 

[ltmauve]

Right now, regardless of what happens to you you can get anywhere as long as you have a core. If you make fuel required you eliminate this safety feature.

 

[Gamel]

......
As for using any particular block type as a fuel that is used up as quickly as the OP suggests doesn't seem good to me at all. 100 power cores running for about 17 minutes on one block strikes me as expensive, no matter how common the fuel is. Extrapolate that consumption to an average server with multiple players, multiple ships per player, multiple 100-core power reactors per ship, running for hours on end, and you have a game where the primary play mechanic will become fuel-mining. Zeno, based on your first reply to this thread, I think you'll agree.

What I suggested is just an example, the number can always be changed for keeping balance of the game

 

[Zeno9141]

What I suggested is just an example, the number can always be changed for keeping balance of the game

T'is not about balance. T'is about how enjoyable it is, and how to avoid dreaded micromanagement.

 

[Gamel]

Right now, regardless of what happens to you you can get anywhere as long as you have a core. If you make fuel required you eliminate this safety feature.

How about we treat it like this, A ship core contains micro thruster and solar panel on its own,
therefore a single core can produce and provide enough limited power generation for its micro thruster to move

 

[Zeno9141]

How about we treat it like this, A ship core contains micro thruster and solar panel on its own,
therefore a single core can produce and provide enough limited power generation for its micro thruster to move

We still haven't addressed the biggest of issues. Micromanagement.

I have a question. Is it fun? :p

 

[Gamel]

We still haven't addressed the biggest of issues. Micromanagement.

I have a question. Is it fun? :p

I was thinking how to answer about micromanagement, and I still have no answer yet

 

[ltmauve]

How about we treat it like this, A ship core contains micro thruster and solar panel on its own,
therefore a single core can produce and provide enough limited power generation for its micro thruster to move

Yeah, that's probably a good idea for this concept. But I know schema doesn't like breaking old designs. I personally hope fuel arrives for superior power generators while the current system is kept as-is.

Anyway, one way to get around the micromangement is linking fuel tanks to docking ports. (Valve block as a controller of tank blocks and other valve blocks in case something runs off of multiple types of fuel or ammo) Those would refuel anything that landed on the docking ports automatically. We could also have the powersupply and powerdrain beams act as fuelsupply and fueldrain beams when linked to fuel tanks, making it possible to easily transfer large amounts of fuel once finite inventory is implemented. These would target "fuel port" blocks that would also be linked to fuel tanks (a tanker that stores multiple types of fuel and you only want to transfer one. Also preventing enemies from draining your fuel tanks in the middle of battle.)

 

[Zeno9141]

Yeah, that's probably a good idea for this concept. But I know schema doesn't like breaking old designs. I personally hope fuel arrives for superior power generators while the current system is kept as-is.

Anyway, one way to get around the micromangement is linking fuel tanks to docking ports. (Valve block as a controller of tank blocks and other valve blocks in case something runs off of multiple types of fuel or ammo) Those would refuel anything that landed on the docking ports automatically. We could also have the powersupply and powerdrain beams act as fuelsupply and fueldrain beams when linked to fuel tanks, making it possible to easily transfer large amounts of fuel once finite inventory is implemented. These would target "fuel port" blocks that would also be linked to fuel tanks (a tanker that stores multiple types of fuel and you only want to transfer one. Also preventing enemies from draining your fuel tanks in the middle of battle.)

I especially agree with the fact it should be an addition instead of a restriction.

 

[jayman38]

I need to clarify my position.

This thread illustrates the fact that some people find micromanagement tedious, while some find great satisfaction in it. Therefore, with server-side settings, limited fuel and fuel usage should be possible options, but I think the default unaltered game should remain fuel-less. If the game never comes with fuel settings at all, I can easily see someone building a mod for it, and it being popular on some servers. Especially for a "hardcore" mode where you have to keep your stuff fueled. I am making a comparison to hardcore mode in Minecraft where you have to find and cook food to survive. Same thing.

Going further, there might be different grades of fuel available. For instance, water or ice might provide normal power, while a destruction block might provide double energy output for half the time.

 

[Gamel]

I especially agree with the fact it should be an addition instead of a restriction.

Strongly agreed, an addition of fuel burning power regene can help smaller ships to get enough power