Devblog 11th July 2017 - End Goal Document Part 1

    Discussion in 'Game News' started by schema, Jul 11, 2017.

    1. Captain_Boroski

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      You know I work in a factory assembly line and your post immediately reminds me of a engineer who comes around to check what fucks up with our ability to get things done in time, who then relays the problem to another engineer who never ever lowers himself to the level of us working class filth so much as to come and see himself what the problem is. He who looks at listed problems, measures and numbers, does the math, goes to the workshop and makes a fancy new tool. This tool is then given to us and we're told "use this from now" and all should be well because the smart engineer made the calculations and this absolutely should solve our problems at certain point in the assembly line.

      The tool works good for the first few hours, but then it's gears loosens up, the metal bits soften and get worn from contact with other metals. We don't know how to fix this tool because we don't know what measures it's calibrated for. We can't use our old tools because they were taken away. Now our quality drops, the overseer comes and pours shit down our neck. These tools don't work because the smart engineer who made them never had to see them being used in practice or even the station they were going to be used at.

      But of course, that's our fault.
       
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    2. Lancake

      Lancake Head of Testing

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      ...?
       
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    3. LunaIsBestPony

      LunaIsBestPony Nig Ger

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      Metaphors are hard to understand, I see.
       
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    4. Lancake

      Lancake Head of Testing

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      You mean pointless, I gave extra explanation on what I do when I play the game and why it can't be considered as "really playing the game".

      That metaphor is about big bosses not cooperating with their employees, and then also blaming the employees if something is wrong again. How does that have to do with me or what I said in those 3 lines?
       
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    5. LunaIsBestPony

      LunaIsBestPony Nig Ger

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      You keep giving proof that you don't play the game.

      We're trying to express how outstandingly egregious it is that the head tester and person who is in charge of virtually all game balance doesn't actually play the game.

      Boro's metaphor has to do you with dismissing Zyrr's and Lecic's posts as "trolling" when really all they're trying to do is raise complaints about where this game is going, in what way, and how information about the game is being delivered. As one of the devs of the game, you have an obligation to consider what they're saying and the veracity of their words.

      All of us really do have the wish of seeing Starmade become something better then it already is. Our methods of communication aren't the kindest, but our intentions are good and it's wildly offensive that you don't take into consideration the words of three of the most experienced players of the game.

      Posting before you are three of your potentially most valuable resources for doing your balancing and game development. It's genuinely upsetting to see you consider them as nothing more than dickheads who want to cause trouble.
       
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    6. Bladeriker

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      No plan survives contact with the enemy, on in this case the forums.

      If they had said nothing. People would complain. They said something, and people did complain.

      What we as the players have been shown, is only the tiniest tip of the iceberg of what the developers are doing. They have a vision, and want to see it to the end.

      We as players, want a functional game that is enjoyable to play, and we want to know when this functional and enjoyable game will be ready. However, what we want and what the developmental vision is are two very different things. Furthermore, the time table for the game development is not up to the players to dictate, we are along for the ride, and can either work with, or work against the game as it stands.

      I for one was excited to see what the developmental vision was, and where they where aiming to take us, only to see a few sour apples jump in and try to derail the beneficent actions of the development team, with the their usual banter about how the Dev's are not doing a good enough job, or making claims about how the Dev's are out of touch with the community. Of all the MMO's I have played, and of all the sandboxes I have gotten into, Starmade is the only one that has ever given me prompt responses from the Dev's when I had a question regarding why something was not working, or how to do something in game.

      Love it or hate it, you play it by choice.
       
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    7. uberadiant

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      The post was interesting. The comments were...more interesting.

      I don't post much but I've been around here for a long time, I've read every dev blog there has been in the last 4 years. I admit I was a little disappointed in this post initially as I had also expected something a little meatier. I was expecting graphs, charts, a full Word document, spreadsheets, all that jazz. Essentially I was expecting the game design docs, although having read the various comments I've now realised that I read previous blogs wrong and so my expectations were far too high. In hindsight, releasing design docs when the game is still in alpha would be a fairly stupid idea given how much is likely to change in the coming years. I studied computer games technology at university and having written a couple of design docs myself, I know how monumentally stupid it would be to make them public for a game still in alpha (I will also say that I absolutely hated that course. Playing games is infinitely more interesting than actually creating them!).

      I'll reserve final judgement until all parts of the goals document have been released. I would however just point out the primary objective in releasing this sort of information should be to keep people interested in the game. You want people to get a glimpse of your ultimate vision, but there's not a massive amount of new information in this post, a lot of it has either been said before or is just common expectation. I think that in future parts we need to see something new, something fresh. That could be a hint at a previously unannounced feature, an update to the roadmap, maybe even a screenshot or two from an internal build? Just something to keep people coming back and playing the game.

      Please don't take the above as a criticism, just a friendly suggestion. This game has bags of potential, I just want to see a bit more of it! ;)
       
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    8. Keptick

      Keptick Overkill titan builder

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      Reading this thread is just depressing...
       
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    9. Drakkart

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      Let me start by commenting on some stuff
      I feel your disappointment m8 but what 4k ship survives getting blasted by a half million mass ship? Also bearing what kind of wonder weapon to actually harmthe big boy? The weapon system even though a few options are viable still is pretty solid balance wise. the only disadvantege bigger ships have atm are the srificially softcaped powergeneration limiting the linear scaling weapons to out gun smaller ships guns and that will be fixed aka replaced with a new system we have no clue about if it will not doom starmade forever.
      Anyway afaik will they redo weapon systems as well - a pity for it is a good system.

      yeah the vagueness and at the same time aimlessness is stunning. instead the finally will state that ships and station only differ because only stationary objects aka station can become homebases and all other blocks could be used everywhere they go lkike and yeah there are tons of interesting blocks but we rather not talk about them. Dear schine you really wonder why people go "WTF?!"

      Listen to this man! He writes out of hope you guys might still change. Hope a lot of us lost and you strengthen their believe of, schine not knowing what they do, every time some generic "we wrote something for you..." gets posted which is totally out of focus of what the game actually needs or where we see the game going. I am deeply sorry for you talking about limiting resources in order to achive - what was it exactly? WHILE THE ENTIRE CRAFTING SYSTEM SCREAMS "REDO ME, FOR NOONE EVER PLAYS SURVIVAL BECAUSE OF SHITTY ME" Nobody building seriously building ships does this in survival. Shipyards are messed up that is what limits your game to a building game best played with factions turned off for they just bump into your stuff...

      man i so love this... Well put.

      I kind of agree with you intentions m8 but who measures which individuals are the most valuable to listen to again? i kind of dislike this notion strongly as the arguments should count.
      Nothing against vocal minority or smth i just wonder if only looking at the forums, people really consider represents the community. nope they do not!
      ---

      Dear Schine do not give out end goal papers when you are stating you are not sure of your endgoals and these papers are subject to change. (you expressed it differently but that is kinda the essence) Also do not claim to build a sandbox game but then talk about mmorpg roles. Btw. also please scrap the damn chambers for they will never work as a replacement for eve modules, sorry Crizz. But Starmade needs a solid power system and then we can talk about other stuff systems can accomplish using the power...
      I really strongly dislike the hints of adding further restrictions to the game... as i meantioned already the crafting system is a nightmare noone can bear to really like. talking about limited ressouces only available in - what was it... is like a smack in the face of the people actually trying to play the game in survival.
      I am not toxic i am trying to express - sadly again - how frustrating it is to see a game of tremendeous potential and then - basically the devs are talking about another game or showing no concern about gameplay issues we encounter on a daily basis... It is just sad.
       
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    10. Lone_Puppy

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      Nice! I like how you've categorized the player types.
      In my experience with this game, I have approached the game in a cascade of these categories. For me they have lead from one to another through me reaching a stage in each category that would most likely be different both in time, interest and skill base for other players.

      Maybe you could interview players who started playing at different stages, perhaps over time or based around the different major updates.
      You might be surprised by the feedback of the player experience and their expectations from when they heard about the game, what their expectations were to their growth and learning curve in actually playing the game. Perhaps feedback on their observations around their experiences in the different game styles and arena's (single/multi play etc).

      For you to draw useful statistical information from this, perhaps one of your team could generate a simple survey form with a few personal opinion fields here and there. Or perhaps hand that over to one of those survey outfits that do this for a living.

      By the way, the mention of Shipyards reminded me that the hotbar screwyness needs to be fixed.
       
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    11. Matt_Bradock

      Matt_Bradock The Shrink

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      1. Where dies it read that there's a plan to force anyone into those roles? Duh. For me it looks more like a list of all aspects of being a player in StarMade.
      You build your ships and stations.
      You explore to find a suitable system to settle in, or to find resources, shops, other players.
      You acquire and process resources to build an industrial complex to help you do it on a larger scale.
      You trade with NPCs and other players for resources you don't have.
      You fight pirates and other players for fun, for resources, or for territory.
      You try to either establish a strong faction or become a prominent member of one.

      2. Who gets this idea that LancakeLancake hasn't actually played the game in 3 years? He said he hasn't played for real (meaning to have fun, just to play it) in 3 years because as head tester it is his freaking JOB to play Starmade. No wonder he counts it as work.

      3. Did you pessimistic cynical, whiny bunch seriously expect a developer team to release actual development documentation to you, when you already clearly demonstrated that even if they breathe, you already stand at the ready prepared to take them apart? Sounds like the old joke in my country where the fox and the wolf decide to beat up the rabbit, but need a reason for it, so they decide if he's wearing a cap, that's why, if he's not wearing one, that's why.

      Reading through this comment section actually proved me that the lot of you already came here with so strong pre-existing opinions that you even blatantly ignored obvious information that would have contradicted those. That's enough for me to see to know what Schine has to deal with. For every piece of actual useful constructive criticism there's 3 shitposts/trollposts. Shame.
       
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    12. happahappa

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      sometimes i wonder how many of you are actually palying this game. we have these crazy bugs for month, so i'm not surpirse about that anymore, if noone of you actually bothers to play this game in way an interetedted person would do.
       
    13. Equilibrium21

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      A community like this doesn't deserve a developer team like Schine. None of the previous whiners understand anything about developing a game with such a small team, very small budget and a community that whines about everything that happens. They think it's simple to construct and develop a game.
       
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    14. Az14el

      Az14el Lord Procrastinator General

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      you build flying space guns to shoot or mine with

      There's your three (3) roles, and the three aspects of the game that really should be tight as fuck before beta.
      Building, Combat & Gathering. Building is getting there but the other two hang loose like sleeve of wizard. Maybe there's a lot of pipe dreams out there but I'd wager all a reasonable player wants from you moving into beta is working core gameplay, it doesn't have to be completely balanced and have all the extra bells and whistles, just a solid proof of concept. I don't like to say it but I do see it, we're becoming DayZ in space.

      Is it really worth diving into it? also pkb tbh
       
      #54 Az14el, Jul 12, 2017
      Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
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    15. Napther

      Napther Grumpy builder of Kaiju Design Initiative

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      Not to be off topic, but, there really isnt anything most 500k mass ships can do, in the generalist and RP categories, that can stand up to spammed, dirt cheap drones.

      these small, lightweight drones deal up to 100k DPS per drone. Up to 400k shield DPS if some are suing Ion effect but are more expensive units. Being 1/1000000th the total cost of a titan class (they dont even need proper shielding nor armour), its easy to field hundreds of these things in 1 encounter. 100x 100kdps is 10m dps every second from many small ships. Even the most Stalwart of shields at that size area would last only 30 seconds under such withering fire, before becoming sliced by the weapons due to the 2m e/s soft cap each of them carries, fielding in total a staggering 200m energy/second compared with most ships of that size having between 35-100m total e/s betweeen all docked enetities, on board power, and aux etc.

      Due to these things being small and numerous, Defences on the target ship will struggle to cut a reasonable amount of them down before the automated turrets begin to fail from lack of shields and pop off, then the main ship is destroyed if it is unable to escape.
       
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    16. Comr4de

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      See: Stockholm Syndrome
       
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    17. Keptick

      Keptick Overkill titan builder

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      I haven't done this in practice, but couldn't you just blap a couple of them, jump out, wait for shields to recharge, jump back in, and repeat? The AI is retarded, so if you selectively engage the swarm or avoid it then it becomes useless.

      That or use a dedicated swarm missile ship. Swarm missiles > swarm fleet. (This I have tested, and it works well). The challenge then becomed to predict what the enemy will use, which turns into fun strategy.
       
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    18. Zyrr

      Zyrr Chronic Troublemaker

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      No, swarm missiles versus fleets doesn't work lol. You're so far out of date with the combat meta my man
       
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    19. StormWing0

      StormWing0 Leads the Storm

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      This part here. Swarm Missiles don't work vs any of my drone fleets because of a combination of AMS Drones and AMS Turrets on the main damage dealer drones. You'd be lucky to see them leave the barrel in a fight with me. XD

      Needless to say my issue has always been miscalculating the target's threat level and getting annihilated for it. >.<
       
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    20. Gamel

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      this end goal document sounds like wrote by some marketing persons.
      not saying it is not good. But i prefer the old starmade way.

      point out the issues, combine in a list, follow the list and fix all the problems with the cat's magic

      Now this end goal document sounds promising but yet a bit vague
       
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