Dev-Thread: New Shielding System in devlopment

    Non

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    I do hope that you are aware the Power Update is BEFORE the Weapons Update? So, in Layamon terms: After this update Weapons are changing too, then Universe.
    I don't comprehend what you are trying to say here. I am aware of the planned weapons update and I don't believe it will come out that quickly after full power update. If you are insinuating that because weapons will change in the future, changing the shield system to allow damage to leak through is a good idea now, then you are forgetting a big chunk of time in between now and then. If you are trying to say that if a ship durability change were to happen, it should happen with the power update and not the weapons update, then I would agree. If you are just handing out information because you want to become the starmade news boy, then you should probably find a different reader. But really I don't know what the hell you mean because those are two poorly-put-together not-quite sentences that don't really respond to what I said in any meaningful way.

    Please revise so that I can give you a better response.
     
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    They should really show shields and power in the GUI somehow, it's very annoying not being able to see either.
    I'd love to see a GUI with a schematic of your ship where you could find information relating to things like this new shield system. It would be a lot more immersive and interesting than just a list of numbers. I'll bet it wouldn't be hard to do either with that new outline/highlighting system the devs added.
     

    Ithirahad

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    You still do have shields; try shooting the ship with a gun. :P
     
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    JumpSuit

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    I don't comprehend what you are trying to say here. I am aware of the planned weapons update and I don't believe it will come out that quickly after full power update. If you are insinuating that because weapons will change in the future, changing the shield system to allow damage to leak through is a good idea now, then you are forgetting a big chunk of time in between now and then. If you are trying to say that if a ship durability change were to happen, it should happen with the power update and not the weapons update, then I would agree. If you are just handing out information because you want to become the starmade news boy, then you should probably find a different reader. But really I don't know what the hell you mean because those are two poorly-put-together not-quite sentences that don't really respond to what I said in any meaningful way.

    Please revise so that I can give you a better response.
    I mean in the sense that that is what the order WILL be in? These updates will come faster than you think. I will keep my wording in the air for now...
     
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    We do not have a completely finished power system 2.0 ... and now we start with 2.0 shields, which do not cover the whole ship, and have a penalty for putting different shields modules ones near others?

    What will be the next? penalize different types of hull too close? penalize turrets too close? come on ...

    I can change my mind with the 2.0 power system ... but these changes are adding more and more penalties to the construction of anything in starmade.

    If something has categorized starmade for years, is the "freedom" that players have when building, all these changes make me feel that I am playing a totally different game, full of penalties, forcing me to build in a specific way ... and that´s not freedom.
     
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    We do not have a completely finished power system 2.0 ... and now we start with 2.0 shields, which do not cover the whole ship, and have a penalty for putting different shields modules ones near others?

    What will be the next? penalize different types of hull too close? penalize turrets too close? come on ...

    I can change my mind with the 2.0 power system ... but these changes are adding more and more penalties to the construction of anything in starmade.

    If something has categorized starmade for years, is the "freedom" that players have when building, all these changes make me feel that I am playing a totally different game, full of penalties, forcing me to build in a specific way.
    That's your perspective (which are entirely subjective). For myself, I see it as increasing the choices and compromises to be made in design, which is exactly what makes it interesting.
     

    Ithirahad

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    Strange. You should have at least 200 shields, I thought... Try mousing over the shield group on your ship; it shows the stats there.
     

    Chckn Wildstyle

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    I'd just like to note I'm strongly in favor of progressively weakened shields, for a couple of reasons.

    • It is how fiction generally has us expect shields to work.
    • It means there's some point to aiming when shields are still up. This would allow for balancing where shields last much longer than they do now, without being terribly boring.
    • It would add a new balancing parameter with many potential uses. We could get actual weak spots on ships, not just semi-vulnerable turrets, and in return get better shielding for turrets.
    • It would force armor and shields to fulfill different purposes. We argue back and forth about how useful armor is, and I think we all agree it's gotten a lot better over the years. But in a sense, and I think this is a problem, they still do the same thing- protect the ship from damage. As it is, they're just taking turns doing it. If shields were to leak damage, things would be rather different. Shield would prolong the overall survival of the ship, while armor would protect its performance during that lifespan.
    • Since any battle would then result in some damage, there would be an actual concept of maintenance involved in gameplay.
    As for the last point, I realize it might cause some annoyance. Fixing shipyards is kind of a condition for putting this in the game, at the very least.
    StarMade's shielding in the conventional way of one shield for the entire ship no matter the direction is most similar to how Halo does its shielding, almost exactly the same actually. That is a work of fiction very well known that is antithetical to your point.

    Shields in this game in the way they currently work best suit the game. Otherwise this new "bubble" system would just be cancer incarnate, as I for one, will simply find the best way to overlap circle pack my hull and go from there. This will most likely only have two consequences:
    1) Ships now take a TON more time to build because of the amount of shield spam you would need near your ship hull.
    2) Rolling your ship would become even more meta than it already is with armor builds. Rolling = Damage distributed across the entire axis of the ship, and instead of it all eventually dropping at once, now you have dozens if not hundreds of individual shield arrays that have to be down simultaneously for any real damage to occur.

    Fights are already long enough between well balanced ships: See Blood and Steel Season 3, and specifically the finale. The finale was 30 minutes of combat between two ships of equal 12k mass.

    This new bubble system would only make fights longer, more drawn out, and more twitchy as EVERYONE would be rotating their ships during the entire fight to spread damage. There is also the concern of a rotating hull that applies this spin concept to shields now instead of just armor. The game is already getting too complex to add something like this shield system and it be fun to create ships.

    *EDIT ADDENDUM* I should also add that having tiny parts of your ship damaged by every tiny engagement you have even if you are in a 1km+ capital ship would be no other word than annoying.

    [doublepost=1509403481,1509403088][/doublepost]
    What's the bloody point in using shields then? Fancy shield hit effects?
    It's bad enough we have this "fuck anything bigger than a corvette and fuck stations with extreme prejudice" system looming over us, you want to kill every design that doesn't have meters upon meters of armor too?
    If you hate shields so much why don't you remove them from your ships and fly around with only armor standing between you and the enemy, like a bunch of rеtаrds.

    PS: And fuck whoever thought it was a good idea to put this goddamn wordfilter.
    The word "rеtаrd" has a variety of meanings, not all of them are meant to be insulting, you goddamn rеtаrds.
    This is off topic, but I absolutely love every time you post on these forums. The spirit of an SS13 cluwne is carried well with you and I appreciate that.
     
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    Chckn Wildstytle makes good points - i could also be happy with other ideas to modify current 'global shields', but if 'area-effect' shields (which i kinda like the basic idea of) are problematic for the kinds of critical reasons mentioned above, then i can live without this particular new version of shields ....

    edit -- your 1km ship is annoying also ...if you leave it parked there, the local street-droids will throw stones at it ... :)
     
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    StarMade's shielding in the conventional way of one shield for the entire ship no matter the direction is most similar to how Halo does its shielding, almost exactly the same actually. That is a work of fiction very well known that is antithetical to your point.

    Shields in this game in the way they currently work best suit the game. Otherwise this new "bubble" system would just be cancer incarnate, as I for one, will simply find the best way to overlap circle pack my hull and go from there. This will most likely only have two consequences:
    1) Ships now take a TON more time to build because of the amount of shield spam you would need near your ship hull.
    2) Rolling your ship would become even more meta than it already is with armor builds. Rolling = Damage distributed across the entire axis of the ship, and instead of it all eventually dropping at once, now you have dozens if not hundreds of individual shield arrays that have to be down simultaneously for any real damage to occur.

    Fights are already long enough between well balanced ships: See Blood and Steel Season 3, and specifically the finale. The finale was 30 minutes of combat between two ships of equal 12k mass.

    This new bubble system would only make fights longer, more drawn out, and more twitchy as EVERYONE would be rotating their ships during the entire fight to spread damage. There is also the concern of a rotating hull that applies this spin concept to shields now instead of just armor. The game is already getting too complex to add something like this shield system and it be fun to create ships.
    Sadly, although I think the new system is cool, you're right. I think the devs are thinking too much in terms of fleets and not enough about how pvp players will fight. These shields makes sense for taking down things like large AI controlled ships of the line, which will no doubt respond very sluggishly to player attacks. Chinks blown into their armor could reasonably be exploited to take these large ships down. But I can totally see pvp pros doing something ridiculous but simple and effective like spinning (it's a good trick) which, like pretty much anything anyone ever does in this game, would probably cause lag somehow.
     
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    StarMade's shielding in the conventional way of one shield for the entire ship no matter the direction is most similar to how Halo does its shielding, almost exactly the same actually. That is a work of fiction very well known that is antithetical to your point.
    He did put "generally" in there, doesn't sound like he meant "all without exception"

    Shields in this game in the way they currently work best suit the game. Otherwise this new "bubble" system would just be cancer incarnate, as I for one, will simply find the best way to overlap circle pack my hull and go from there. This will most likely only have two consequences:
    1) Ships now take a TON more time to build because of the amount of shield spam you would need near your ship hull.
    Overlapping shields cancels all but the strongest one in the area of overlap.

    A ship that crams tons of extra shields in to either:
    - ensure the entire ship is covered with a single shield, or
    - ensure the entire ship has at least the same level of shielding as it would have if you were using the old system, or
    - ensure the entire ship has at least the same level as shielding as the most critical structures/systems
    will be inefficient, i.e. heavier than necessary.

    Some parts of your ship will be less critical than others. Currently they get the same level of shielding that you want to give your critical areas, but with localised shielding you'll be able to save weight by reducing shielding in areas that protect less critical systems, or are less likely to be hit - in other words, increase ship performance.

    2) Rolling your ship would become even more meta than it already is with armor builds. Rolling = Damage distributed across the entire axis of the ship, and instead of it all eventually dropping at once, now you have dozens if not hundreds of individual shield arrays that have to be down simultaneously for any real damage to occur.
    If rolling is already meta because of limiting armour damage then worrying about something else also causing rolling to be meta seems a bit pointless. Especially as for rolling shields to work you'd need small (i.e. weak) shields that don't stretch from one side of the ship to the other. If you want a decently high level of shielding your shields are probably going to be large enough for rolling to be pointless - you'd still be exposing the same shield to fire.

    Fights are already long enough between well balanced ships: See Blood and Steel Season 3, and specifically the finale. The finale was 30 minutes of combat between two ships of equal 12k mass.

    This new bubble system would only make fights longer, more drawn out, and more twitchy as EVERYONE would be rotating their ships during the entire fight to spread damage. There is also the concern of a rotating hull that applies this spin concept to shields now instead of just armor. The game is already getting too complex to add something like this shield system and it be fun to create ships.
    Possibly, or possibly the total mass of shields needed to make fights longer will be too large with the new system.
    In any case, even if this does happen it only lasts until the weapon update - you have to consider both weapons and shields to be able to estimate length of battles, and we have no idea what effect the weapons update will have on it.
     
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    Chckn Wildstyle

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    He did put "generally" in there, doesn't sound like he meant "all without exception"
    He is using the term of "generally" to dismiss/discredit/devalue the concept of universal shields. Though a very large series in the Sci-Fi scene is Halo which uses universal shields. I did not add any more because I didn't see the reason to go into to much depth with the disproval, but if you insist on nitpicking I will add more. Elite Dangerous (another juggernaut of Sci-Fi) uses universal shields, admittedly it uses a heavy influence on hull and armor as well, but universal shields are what are used. Warhammer 40k (yet another juggernaut of Sci-Fi) uses Void Shields that behave as universal shields with no particular direction of the shields being stronger than the other.
    -----Those are 3 large and well known Sci-Fi universes which disprove the "general" statement.

    Overlapping shields cancels all but the strongest one in the area of overlap.

    A ship that crams tons of extra shields in to either:
    - ensure the entire ship is covered with a single shield, or
    - ensure the entire ship has at least the same level of shielding as it would have if you were using the old system, or
    - ensure the entire ship has at least the same level as shielding as the most critical structures/systems
    will be inefficient, i.e. heavier than necessary.

    Some parts of your ship will be less critical than others. Currently they get the same level of shielding that you want to give your critical areas, but with localised shielding you'll be able to save weight by reducing areas that protect less critical systems, or are less likely to be hit - in other words, increase ship performance.
    You need to understand that only overlap of the generator inside the space of another shield bubble will cancel the generation of the second shield. This means that the bubbles themselves can overlap quite happily. Search up circle packing, that is what you are thinking, when in reality it is okay for some circle overlap as long as the center of one circle does not enter the radius of another.

    Talking about inefficiency so loosely as if people are not intelligent enough to make efficient 100% coverage ships even under your false understanding is disingenuous. Though you do misunderstand things so I won't pin you to hard with this one.

    If rolling is already meta because of limiting armour damage then worrying about something else also causing rolling to be meta seems a bit pointless. Especially as for rolling shields to work you'd need small (i.e. weak) shields that don't stretch from one side of the ship to the other. If you want a decently high level of shielding your shields are probably going to be large enough for rolling to be pointless - you'd still be exposing the same shield to fire.
    Again, you are grossly misrepresenting the possibilities of this new system and also forgetting the thrust system that can allow even large ships to spin on a dime, especially if they are thinnest in the Z axis.

    The second contention is that I said EVERYONE would be rolling their ships like maniacs. This means that any type of ship, not just armor focused ships would be doing it. So instead of having multiple types of ships that behave different in combat you are saying it is fine to have one standard type of maneuver to apply across all ships. I think this is just your inexperience with the game talking though, so I won't pin you on this too hard either. Just remember that there are several people here who have 3 or 4+ years of experience of this game, myself included, and we have seen a lot more combat and meta than you, so we are not exaggerating when we say these things.

    Possibly, or possibly the total mass of shields needed to make fights longer will be too large with the new system.
    In any case, even if this does happen it only lasts until the weapon update - you have to consider both weapons and shields to be able to estimate length of battles, and we have no idea what effect the weapons update will have on it.
    Let us not use hypotheticals of possibilities of future systems to justify something we have actual hands on experience with. If we balance shields correctly qualitatively now, we can worry about balancing them correctly quantitatively later when new systems are added.
     
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    You need to understand that only overlap of the generator inside the space of another shield bubble will cancel the generation of the second shield. This means that the bubbles themselves can overlap quite happily. Search up circle packing, that is what you are thinking, when in reality it is okay for some circle overlap as long as the center of one circle does not enter the radius of another.
    If the generation point is inside another bubble it is completely inactive.
    If the generation point isn't inside another bubble, the portions of the bubbles that overlap are still removed/inactive. Only the strongest bubble is active at any one location.

    Talking about inefficiency so loosely as if people are not intelligent enough to make efficient 100% coverage ships even under your false understanding is disingenuous. Though you do misunderstand things so I won't pin you to hard with this one.
    I made it quite clear what I meant by "inefficient": heavier than necessary.
    If you add extra shields to cover part of your ship containing something non-critical to the same level as your critical sections, or even force the non-critical sections to be inside the same bubble as your critical sections you are wasting mass - you could reduce shielding on the non-critical areas and thereby reduce ship mass.

    Again, you are grossly misrepresenting the possibilities of this new system and also forgetting the thrust system that can allow even large ships to spin on a dime, especially if they are thinnest in the Z axis.
    A shield large enough to cover the entire cross section of the ship won't benefit from rolling. At the other end of the scale are minimum size and strength shields to maximise the effect of rolling.

    All shielding methods will fall somewhere between the two, so you will be forced to balance between shield strength and rolling benefit.

    I don't say it won't be done. I don't say it won't help win battles. I say it isn't necessarily a foregone conclusion every time without any drawbacks.

    It sounds like more realistic rolling calculations are something the devs should have in their sights.

    Let us not use hypotheticals of possibilities of future systems to justify something we have actual hands on experience with. If we balance shields correctly qualitatively now, we can worry about balancing them correctly quantitatively later when new systems are added.
    Equally, let's not use hypothetical conjecture to trash a new system mechanic before we've seen what effect it has on battle lengths.

    You haven't seen what the actual shields release will look like yet, and particularly not the parameter values that will be used. This is just premature FUD at this point.
     
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    Chckn Wildstyle

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    If the generation point is inside another bubble it is completely inactive.
    If the generation point isn't inside another bubble, the portions of the bubbles that overlap are still removed/inactive. Only the strongest bubble is active at any one location.


    I made it quite clear what I meant by "inefficient": heavier than necessary.
    If you add extra shields to cover part of your ship containing something non-critical to the same level as your critical sections, or even force the non-critical sections to be inside the same bubble as your critical sections you are wasting mass - you could reduce shielding on the non-critical areas and thereby reduce ship mass.


    A shield large enough to cover the entire cross section of the ship won't benefit from rolling. A the other end of the scale are minimum size and strength shields to maximise the effect of rolling.

    All shielding methods will fall somewhere between the two, so you will be forced to balance between shield strength and rolling benefit.

    I don't say it won't be done. I don't say it won't help win battles. I simply say it isn't necessarily a foregone conclusion every time without any drawbacks.

    It sounds like more realistic rolling calculations are something the devs should have in their sights.


    Equally, let's not use hypothetical conjecture to trash a new system mechanic before we've seen what effect it has on battle lengths.

    You haven't seen what the actual shields release will look like yet, and particularly not the parameter values that will be used. This is just premature FUD at this point.
    You do not seem to be of the necessary caliber to understand the things we are talking about in full, not that you will never be, you just aren't now. Most of what was said here was either restating your disproven point or not understanding the intricacies of this system. I do not need to explain myself further as you will not understand. Others that see these posts will understand though, so my purpose is fulfilled. Auf Wiedersehen, Unwissender.
     
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    You do not seem to be of the necessary caliber to understand the things we are talking about in full, not that you will never be, you just aren't now. Most of what was said here was either restating your disproven point or not understanding the intricacies of this system. I do not need to explain myself further as you will not understand. Others that see these posts will understand though, so my purpose is fulfilled. Auf Wiedersehen, Unwissender.
    I wasn't aware that you'd even made an attempt to disprove a point of mine, let alone succeeded.

    Another point on rolling shields (again, still not arguing that it won't happen, or that it won't help in fights) - it will be restricted to larger ships (to be beneficial to shields) because the minimum diameter shield bubble is currently approximately 100m wide.
     
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    Would you mind elaborating on why you disagree that this feature isn't just docked hull reborn? I am always open to hearing alternative interpretations of the meta and balance, but from what I've seen this seems like a pretty solid fact.
    excuse me plz why should i do this exactly?

    i cant remember writing anything about this and i have not thought about this in any way.

    i for myself do not see any benefit in docking a big piece of just Hull to any of my ships... bulding the hull directly on the ship seems way easyer to do.
    and if the shield transfer stays the same with the 50% or 25% shield down treshold it doesnt give you any boon if there are docked parts damaged for 1 or 2 seconds until they shoot through and damage the main shields again...

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    i seriously hope the Shield bubble does only take the rail docker into account when it comes to docked entitys.
     
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    Overall the new shielding is interesting and all, but I wonder will they add turret and docked entity shield sharing back? Currently turrets do not share shields, and can be crippled with almost any attack heavy enough to blow up the barrel, making them useless unless they are huge and self-shielded or casemate-style guns. And casemate guns create a ton of new problems, like excess collision checks on turret rotation.

    Time to build monitors and missile-boats?
     
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    Currently turrets do not share shields, and can be crippled with almost any attack heavy enough to blow up the barrel, making them useless unless they are huge and self-shielded or casemate-style guns.
    I'm seeing this too now. I'm currently on 200.143