block hp increase, since shields are hard to make

[Lecic]

I am wholly against a second shield (structural integrity field) based on armor. I have been a supporter of the localized HP/Armor bonus for armor blocks though so you actually get more benefit from layered armor over there just being more of it. I also wouldn't mind it being a little less involved to acquire hardened hull either. Crafting shields isn't difficult other than the resources being so rare. Although I did find an ice planet that has two plates with Sertise and Rammat for shields as well as Hital for cannons. I wanted to avoid having to strip mine a planet but oh well...

What if the second HP pool for armor varied depending on whether the plates were connected or not? You could have multiple, unconnected plates, each with their own HP then.

That's the one I personally like the most, but any of the things refirendum suggested would we greatly welcomed.

 

[Criss]

I feel like if shields just mitigated damage instead of completely blocked it we would have less of an issue coming up with a system that works for armor.

 

[xlBlackhawklx]

Leanson don't bother in a circular argument with players that have never seen combat outside AI. These wars as they stand only last seconds. Piling on more hull around a ship will not save it from massive weapons arrays with punch through. Mind you weapons are cheaper to make. The point of shields is to get rid of the layering of hull. Unless you feel like piling on 30,000 layers of hull around a corvette that only has maybe 500 weapons blocks to ensure its survival. What you guys are referring to as a armor system is a joke so long as piercing and punch through exist and weapons are this cheap to make. Shields reduce the need to have ships like ogres.....they have layers

 

[Leanson]

Black, it gives me a chance to learn people's weaknesses and vulnerabilities. It's only circular to spark more information.

 

[Winterhome]

Piling on more hull around a ship will not save it from massive weapons arrays with punch through.

Because Punch-Through and Piercing are using the wrong formula.

The amount of damage cut by armor isn't taken into consideration when the projectile passes through, so a 2000 damage punchthrough round can go through ~5 advanced armor with passive piercing, when it should only be able to go through 2.

 

[xlBlackhawklx]

You've mis-read the actual description of that. Any damage done to a block WILL pass through to the
next block until the damage has run out from the projectile
.

BLOCKS....not just the block behind it. So if I am doing 5000 damage a shot and Advanced only has 200 HP then I should be able to pass through 25 blocks before my projectile runs out of damage. That is the way it works....Thus destroying the fact that hull....Should be layered.
And again piercing effect says BLOCKS behind the initial point of impact not just....a block behind the point of impact the forumla's are working correctly however layering hull will do nothing against the current weapons. The only way to stop our battleship from erasing a ship at the damage it does would be to layer hull.....1.2M blocks deep

 

[Winterhome]

You've mis-read the actual description of that. Any damage done to a block WILL pass through to thenext block until the damage has run out from the projectile.

[snip]

Dude, I'm talking about code and armor values, not HP and damage. I haven't misread anything. Armor values aren't applied appropriately. I've been playing the game for a year and a half now, and I'm a *very* active engineer, so I know how things work. Also, Piercing has been changed, and the ingame description no longer reflects its effects.

Under the current system, if a 1000 damage punch-through shot hits a block of Advanced Armor with full Passive Piercing (total of 80% damage reduction - or rather 1000 effective HP), then it punches through and deals 800 damage to the next block in line despite having a full 80% of its damage reduced. With the formula fixed, it'd be hitting and killing the block without punching through it.

 

[Lecic]

You've mis-read the actual description of that. Any damage done to a block WILL pass through to thenext block until the damage has run out from the projectile.

BLOCKS....not just the block behind it. So if I am doing 5000 damage a shot and Advanced only has 200 HP then I should be able to pass through 25 blocks before my projectile runs out of damage. That is the way it works....Thus destroying the fact that hull....Should be layered.
And again piercing effect says BLOCKS behind the initial point of impact not just....a block behind the point of impact the forumla's are working correctly however layering hull will do nothing against the current weapons. The only way to stop our battleship from erasing a ship at the damage it does would be to layer hull.....1.2M blocks deep

Advanced armor has 200 HP and 50% armor, effectively giving it 400 HP. Order of Operations is done incorrectly for these effects, so armor is not counted.

With the maximum pierce defensive effect, a hardened hull block has 80% armor. This gives it somewhere in the neighborhood of 1000 HP, effectively.

So, yes, your punch-though cannon that does 1000 damage a shot should be destroying ONE hull block, not FIVE, provided the person has the full pierce effect. Even without, you'd still only be taking out 2 1/2 hardened full per shot. With full punch diminishing the power of punch/pierce, you'd go through even less hull.

 

[Snk]

Long battles would be fun, battles are to short now. Those who fight know better.[DOUBLEPOST=1417811901,1417810804][/DOUBLEPOST]
This would be good, but, hulls are to weak, going up against a pirate station with advanced hull and tanking damage, your hull will not last long at all.

Actually, battles are a pretty nice length right now.

 

[Lecic]

Actually, battles are a pretty nice length right now.

Have you HAD any battles? The way stats are currently, most battles between similarly equipped ships last between 5-20 seconds.

 

[Winterhome]

Have you HAD any battles? The way stats are currently, most battles between similarly equipped ships last between 5-20 seconds.

Capital ships, yes. The smaller the ships are, the longer the fight is, interestingly.

 

[Alias72]

Capital ships, yes. The smaller the ships are, the longer the fight is, interestingly.

I don't find it that interesting. Not that it is unreasonable to find it surprising; it is counter intuitive.

the problem is that weapons scale very non-linearly right now. small ships can't carry enough weapon blocks for the numbers to overwhelm their opponents and so they have to fight longer to get that knock out blow. Capital ship weapons outstrip defenses by such a large degree that they only take a single good hit.

I would also like to throw a bit of fact in here to reinforce many of the points being made. I have, on my ship, a gun with a damage pool of about 10k. It has 100% punch through and can penetrate through a planet (just missing the core to maximize penetration.) that weapon would chew through an unshielded opponent. it highlights the ineffectiveness of armor compared to weapons.

 

[Snk]

Have you HAD any battles? The way stats are currently, most battles between similarly equipped ships last between 5-20 seconds.

Of course I have. And they really don't, especially with radar jammers. Could you be a little more specific as to what kind of ships you are using?

 

[Winterhome]

Of course I have. And they really don't, especially with radar jammers. Could you be a little more specific as to what kind of ships you are using?

Ships upwards of 10,000 mass.

 

[Ithirahad]

What you just showed me was that I should limit my weapons because the armor is too weak. That if I am to lower my weapon damage and fire rate because it will match were the armor can keep up and the other players stand a chance. It also showed me that your vision of balance is a bit off when it comes to building. Your ship looks good, but as a show ship it is nothing more. Calibri may have told you that our weapon our over size, but when the majority of players have weapons that can not keep up with the armor system. Something has to be done. It is not the few who disregards the majorities ideas and suggestions as have been done recently.


These are good ideas and I do support them, anything that improves the gameplay for the majority of players who do not limit themselves. The hp pool would be good because it offsets core drilling, and the added armor bonuses for touching armor blocks make layered hull a good addition to a ship. My ideas do not have to be implemented as long as the main problem is addressed and resolved.[DOUBLEPOST=1418000951,1418000886][/DOUBLEPOST]
That is what I am saying, it is hard to find what you need. Armor needs to fit what people are currently needed it to do and go against.

Exactly, Leanson. Agreed on all counts.

 

[Leanson]

I don't find it that interesting. Not that it is unreasonable to find it surprising; it is counter intuitive.

the problem is that weapons scale very non-linearly right now. small ships can't carry enough weapon blocks for the numbers to overwhelm their opponents and so they have to fight longer to get that knock out blow. Capital ship weapons outstrip defenses by such a large degree that they only take a single good hit.

I would also like to throw a bit of fact in here to reinforce many of the points being made. I have, on my ship, a gun with a damage pool of about 10k. It has 100% punch through and can penetrate through a planet (just missing the core to maximize penetration.) that weapon would chew through an unshielded opponent. it highlights the ineffectiveness of armor compared to weapons.

Weapons are linear, it doesn't matter how many groups you have or dimensions of your group the damage is the same when it hits the target. The only thing that matters is how it chews through armor and systems. Have any of you tested the armor, with a weapon group size of let's say a small 350 amc with matching 350 AMC and punchthrough? Or my favorite with pulse support. This of course will go through any block. Those who make weapons knows that armor doesn't matter and you are most likely going to be killed with a missile.. are we doing calculations with missiles. Let's say 100,000 damage. A small missiles too. Let's see how that holds up. Which is why an hp system is in need to be I place.

 

[Snk]

Ships upwards of 10,000 mass.

Alrighty then. They still last a good while, if you are dodging and stuff. I've never had a problem with it

 

[Winterhome]

Alrighty then. They still last a good while, if you are dodging and stuff. I've never had a problem with it

Have you ever tried to dodge when your enemy quite literally can't miss you because you're so big?

 

[Snk]

Have you ever tried to dodge when your enemy quite literally can't miss you because you're so big?

It isn't that hard when you are fighting from 2000m away. And have radar jammers.

 

[Ithirahad]

It isn't that hard when you are fighting from 2000m away. And have radar jammers.

Fights from 2km away with jammers are boring. If that's what you want combat to be balanced to, then have fun going against nearly everyone else's preferences...