Block Driven Ship/Turret AI

[ToddoftheYear]

So you're what exactly, docking a reactor to your ship and then docking your turrets to the reactor so that they pull from it?

Interesting, if rather difficult to build around.

All of the good Season 3 Blood and Steel ships did this. Your new soft cap becomes thrust because thrust only draws power from the first dock in the chain.

60,000 thrusters will use 2,000,000 e/s, generating 47,443 thrust. You don't want to hit this soft cap though.

Long as it can generate the power it needs to fire, I don't care if its at maximum efficiency or not. Built the actual gun, built a neat shell, then cram in enough power to make it self sufficient.

Its not like a half dozen extra power generator blocks are going to kill me in either production or mass.

If you put the power load onto a docked reactor, you could replace all of the power reactors in the turret with more weapon modules, making it deal ~30% more damage.

 

[godmars]

Rail basic = .05 mass
Ship core = .10 mass
Rail docker = .10 mass
Total = .25 mass
Three blocks

That's trivial to convert his armor into docked armor.

Im convinced these guys have never built anything small, lol

 

[Edymnion]

All of the good Season 3 Blood and Steel ships did this. Your new soft cap becomes thrust because thrust only draws power from the first dock in the chain.

So, the devs literally say they considered docked reactors to be an exploit and go out of their way to fix the problem, so your first reaction is to ignore them and keep making docked reactors?

I mean, seriously, stuff like this is whats going to make it so they disable ALL docked power. It wouldn't surprise me if they soon just said screw it and disable power sharing entirely and said "Power on your level, or the base level of the ship. Nothing in between." just to try and get things under control again.

"Hey guys, these docked reactors are causing a lot of server strain any time they get disconnected and they're really bad for the game. Sorry we have to take them out, but here's you some new blocks that you can use so you can keep building."

If you put the power load onto a docked reactor, you could replace all of the power reactors in the turret with more weapon modules, making it deal ~30% more damage.

1) If I had wanted the turret to do 30% more damage, I would have made the weapons 30% bigger and designed around that. They do exactly the amount of damage I wanted them to do (you think they came out in nice round numbers by accident?).

2) I would have then simply been re-introducing what the devs consider to be an exploit, and a weakness to the overall design that leads to mass failure with a lucky hit that affects the entire server.

 

[ToddoftheYear]

Im convinced these guys have never built anything small, lol

If your ship is so small that 3 blocks and 0.25 mass greatly affect your ship design, it is statistically too small to be effective in combat unless you deploy them in the thousands.

So, the devs literally say they considered docked reactors to be an exploit and go out of their way to fix the problem, so your first reaction is to ignore them and keep making docked reactors?

I mean, seriously, stuff like this is whats going to make it so they disable ALL docked power. It wouldn't surprise me if they soon just said screw it and disable power sharing entirely and said "Power on your level, or the base level of the ship. Nothing in between." just to try and get things under control again.

"Hey guys, these docked reactors are causing a lot of server strain any time they get disconnected and they're really bad for the game. Sorry we have to take them out, but here's you some new blocks that you can use so you can keep building."

You don't need to be quite so accusatory. I have never actually built a ship. I don't play on any servers.

 

[Edymnion]

You don't need to be quite so accusatory. I have never actually built a ship. I don't play on any servers.

Sorry, just getting really tired of hearing about people pulling this kind of thing, which is going to ruin it for everyone who's not abusing the system.

 

[MacThule]

+1

This would outsource AI to the players and is a brilliant idea. Supported the idea before, and still strongly support it.

So much work has gone into adding logic features - I would rather see some of this invested in being able to direct our ships and fleets than simply opening & closing decorative doors.

 

[Comradecolonel]

I like this idea. It would be really useful for getting support ships to behave as their role intended. I agree that the AI is pretty dumb and I wouldn't want schema to have to do all the work. Give us a great system and we'll have everything we need!

 

[jijiji]

+1

This would outsource AI to the players and is a brilliant idea. Supported the idea before, and still strongly support it.

So much work has gone into adding logic features - I would rather see some of this invested in being able to direct our ships and fleets than simply opening & closing decorative doors.

I like this idea. It would be really useful for getting support ships to behave as their role intended. I agree that the AI is pretty dumb and I wouldn't want schema to have to do all the work. Give us a great system and we'll have everything we need!

Did you guys read this thread completely?

 

[Comradecolonel]

jijiji Yea and I like the idea.

 

[MacThule]

jijiji - just because you come crashing in here disrespecting the OP suggestion in order to shamelessly plug your own without actually understanding yourself what Edymnion is proposing, doesn't mean we haven't read the thread. You bashed his idea saying it would take around "50 blocks" to provide AI for a turret or small craft when it clearly would not as outlined, and is completely viable the way it was suggested... then you ask if *I* read the thread?

Yes, yes indeed. Yes, I read the whole thing and no matter how many times you repeat your opinions, I like the OP. Repetition does not make truth.

Your suggestion has good merit as well. Ideally I'd love to see a system of block-AI in place that could accomplish all the features you outline.

 

[jijiji]

jijiji - just because you come crashing in here disrespecting the OP suggestion in order to shamelessly plug your own without actually understanding yourself what Edymnion is proposing, doesn't mean we haven't read the thread. You bashed his idea saying it would take around "50 blocks" to provide AI for a turret or small craft when it clearly would not as outlined, and is completely viable the way it was suggested... then you ask if *I* read the thread?

Yes, yes indeed. Yes, I read the whole thing and no matter how many times you repeat your opinions, I like the OP. Repetition does not make truth.

Your suggestion has good merit as well. Ideally I'd love to see a system of block-AI in place that could accomplish all the features you outline.

I just don't want to put a lot of blocks on small drones with mass < 100! If one of AI blocks will be destroyed, it will kill all logic and just wreck this ship because it will do wrong!

This suggestion is better than current AI, but it will just wreck small drones.

I want to be able to code my AI by myself as much as I want.

I can suggest example of code just for bomber that will be more then 500 AI blocks! And it's simple logics!

The reason I don't want AI blocks is I don't want to put over 500 AI blocks on small ships. Also, destroying of just 1 AI block will change AI logics. Sever load and lags...

You guys want it for fun? Minecraft again? AI is not redstone! It is a configurable computer.

Guys I am developer and I made manual AI mechanics for another game! It increases server's load! I can say that AI blocks will increase server's load a lot! Because server will have to update blocks every tick, reorganize logics and it will take 1000 times or more server's load then the same just without AI blocks. Manual AI mechanics will not update blocks and reorganize AI. It just will do some light calculations.

Okey let's do it and i will be with my over 500 drones with over 500 logic blocks per drone. Let's kill servers and the game! Will it be fun? Not sure really!


__________________________
You can ask me how to limit AI?
Block complication idea is better than nothing, but I think we should choose another way to limit logics. I can suggest it too.

 

[Nickizzy]

I just don't want to put a lot of blocks on small drones with mass < 100! If one of AI blocks will be destroyed, it will kill all logic and just wreck this ship because it will do wrong!

Is this not... Good? If your pilot takes a shot, it doesn't matter that it only his arm or something. It will really screw the ship. Just try to drill a hole through a computer mainframe somewhere that doesn't break it.

I want to be able to code my AI by myself as much as I want.

Then make fun AI creations just for that. Some people made a computer mainframe, in starmade. You can do the same with AI if you want.

I can suggest example of code just for bomber that will be more then 500 AI blocks! And it's simple logics!

Pls show me. It must have like sentience or solve the traveling salesman problem or something. Why would you need that? Besides, if it's something like you need to make it straffe or trench a target, I bet they could add an AI block just for that.

AI blocks will increase server's load a lot!

As I said, people have made mainframes in starmade. If the game can handle that many logic blocks, it sure can handle a fraction of that for the AI.

 

[Lord_Greyscale]

I just don't want to put a lot of blocks on small drones with mass < 100! If one of AI blocks will be destroyed, it will kill all logic and just wreck this ship because it will do wrong!

Ah, so the truth is that you want an AI that can only stop working after it's bobby module,[ hidden behind 5 (possibly 9) faction modules via docked-hull chicanery,] gets popped, and not, say, from getting it's RAM shot to shit (which would simply cause it to shoot anything hostile, instead of your preferred target type)

Do us all a favor, and ram an ice-pick or screwdriver through the video-card from your previous computer. Then, install the busted card into a computer and try to use said card. I'll be real damnned surprised if it even recognizes that there is an "expansion" video card.

Do a similar test, with a running computer, a video-card, and a second monitor running through the on-the-motherboard video port.
Un-seat the video-card. are you still able to use it in this position? No? that sounds EXACTLY like what Edymnion is asking for with his suggestion.
One where "optional" controls regarding what to shoot, and when to do it, are truly optional.

That's the kind of AI this thread is about.
The kind that can be "damaged" but not outright slain without a "lucky" BB to the Bobby unit. (Or a Biggaton missile that vaporizes the entire drone, but even your version dies to that.)

It increases server's load!

I can say that AI blocks will increase server's load a lot! Because server will have to update blocks every tick, reorganize logics and it will take 1000 times or more server's load then the same just without AI blocks.

And that's a flaming load of horse-shit. A dozen logic clocks running on the same ship will produce lag, sure. because the logic blocks are actually changing their on/off state. 500 logic doors slaved to one activator will do the same shit for a slightly different reason.(sight/lighting calculations)

Edymnion's suggestion? Not a single fucking extra bit of "logic" lag, because the logic blocks are not, repeat, not changing states at all. You set their states once, and only once, during the design of the drone. Then, they fucking stay that way untill it dies. Shoot out part of the "circut", no fucking problem! The "circut" doesn't exist, it's literally a series of Levers that control "extra" functions beyond "see target, shoot target"


As to your statements: "i can build one with over 500 blocks" So can any retard with an understanding of logic-clocks, and a total inability to wire more than one function to a clock.

I have 0-doubts that you are a coder of Artificial Idiocy in some other game, all your statements thus far support that opinion.

 

[madman Captain]

What you guys want sounds like the MARS firecontrol mod from X3.
And that was an advanced AI MENU.
A block driven solution of this is insane.
Not every one of us want to build logic stuff in every fu***** AMS turret.
There are far to much things that can go wrong when such an "AI cluster" will be damaged or wrong "programed". I dont want to see how many servers will be crashed because of damaged AI codelines.
What's so wrong with an just more advanced Bobby AI menu?
I think jijiji has some realy good points and you guys should think carfully about what he says before you start blaming him.

 

[Nickizzy]

What you guys want sounds like the MARS firecontrol mod from X3.
And that was an advanced AI MENU.
A block driven solution of this is insane.
Not every one of us want to build logic stuff in every fu***** AMS turret.
There are far to much things that can go wrong when such an "AI cluster" will be damaged or wrong "programed". I dont want to see how many servers will be crashed because of damaged AI codelines.
What's so wrong with an just more advanced Bobby AI menu?
I think jijiji has some realy good points and you guys should think carfully about what he says before you start blaming him.

AI module->Shoot at missiles. 2 blocks.

If an AI turns invalid just have it turn off like it got shot out.

A menu, especially a big and in depth one, is something that's really not in the ethic of starmade right now, with everything being block based.

 

[MacThule]

Guys I am developer and I made manual AI mechanics for another game! It increases server's load! I can say that AI blocks will increase server's load a lot! Because server will have to update blocks every tick, reorganize logics and it will take 1000 times or more server's load then the same just without AI blocks. Manual AI mechanics will not update blocks and reorganize AI. It just will do some light calculations.

I would be fine with seeing a proper AI-interface out of a single block as well, if it could allow the same degree of flexibility!! This will also increase server load!!1! Every entity will still have to be checked for AI actions, whether it arises from blocks or from background code!!!11!

...so...

All arguments from expertise, loud text coloration and emphatic insistence aside, BOTH approaches would result in a similar server load to calculate AI and a non-block AI can easily cause killer server load as well (unless you incorrectly believe that poorly implemented non-block AI cannot).

A server load to calculate AI already exists, as well, which would be replaced by any new model, so we are not talking about load on top of current AI, we are looking at it replacing current AI in both cases. You've yet to demonstrate how your model is better except by saying very loudly that "you know" and we should just accept that you know best. Just because. There is no evidence and it flies directly in the face of what Edymnion specifically wrote about retaining the ability to implement a fully functioning replica of the current AI with a single block. You are literally just shouting Edymnion down with lies & fallacies.

I can suggest example of code just for bomber that will be more then 500 AI blocks! And it's simple logics!

Please do within the context of what Edymnion has actually suggest here, because from what you are saying, you still have not read through his whole post and actually understood what he is proposing, yet you continue to camp his thread and shout him down.

Show us, please, how a system where a player is able to add one Bobby AI block to give a bomber AI orders to "TARGET ALL" - exactly as proposed in the OP - somehow forces players to use 50o blocks to get that same bomber AI to work.

you could completely replicate the current AI with at most a single block. Instead of going into the Bobby and telling to "Aim at Ships", you slave a single Target:Ship block to it. "Aim at Missiles" would add a single Target:Missile block. And "Target Any" would be simply not slaving anything at all.

This I'd love to see. Enough shouting "guys I'm right, I know I'm right, believe me! It's bad! So Bad! My idea is most right!" Enough, already. Enough colors and exclamations.

Prove you are right. Prove that 1 = 500.

 

[jijiji]

I am here and starting to reply. It will take some time. I may edit it cause don't have much time now. Changed: bug with posted code
____________________________________________

Is this not... Good? If your pilot takes a shot, it doesn't matter that it only his arm or something. It will really screw the ship. Just try to drill a hole through a computer mainframe somewhere that doesn't break it.

Ah, so the truth is that you want an AI that can only stop working after it's bobby module,[ hidden behind 5 (possibly 9) faction modules via docked-hull chicanery,] gets popped, and not, say, from getting it's RAM shot to shit (which would simply cause it to shoot anything hostile, instead of your preferred target type)

Do us all a favor, and ram an ice-pick or screwdriver through the video-card from your previous computer. Then, install the busted card into a computer and try to use said card. I'll be real damnned surprised if it even recognizes that there is an "expansion" video card.

Do a similar test, with a running computer, a video-card, and a second monitor running through the on-the-motherboard video port.
Un-seat the video-card. are you still able to use it in this position? No? that sounds EXACTLY like what Edymnion is asking for with his suggestion.
One where "optional" controls regarding what to shoot, and when to do it, are truly optional.

That's the kind of AI this thread is about.
The kind that can be "damaged" but not outright slain without a "lucky" BB to the Bobby unit. (Or a Biggaton missile that vaporizes the entire drone, but even your version dies to that.)

In real life, about 1x1x1 sm circuit is able to do stuff like 1 000 000 logic blocks or more!

Man! Cool down! I am posting here to help developers and Starmade, but not for insulting people.

I agree that damaging of CPU should cause errors in logics. But you should know about true CPU sizes. I can agree with one 1x1x1 m Bobby AI block! But it's big anought already.
________________________________________________

As I said, people have made mainframes in starmade. If the game can handle that many logic blocks, it sure can handle a fraction of that for the AI.

And that's a flaming load of horse-shit. A dozen logic clocks running on the same ship will produce lag, sure. because the logic blocks are actually changing their on/off state. 500 logic doors slaved to one activator will do the same shit for a slightly different reason.(sight/lighting calculations)

Edymnion's suggestion? Not a single fucking extra bit of "logic" lag, because the logic blocks are not, repeat, not changing states at all. You set their states once, and only once, during the design of the drone. Then, they fucking stay that way untill it dies. Shoot out part of the "circut", no fucking problem! The "circut" doesn't exist, it's literally a series of Levers that control "extra" functions beyond "see target, shoot target"

Logic blocks and blocks you suggest to add are absolutely different! AI blocks will consume more resources than logic blocks.
___________________________________________________

Pls show me. It must have like sentience or solve the traveling salesman problem or something. Why would you need that? Besides, if it's something like you need to make it straffe or trench a target, I bet they could add an AI block just for that.

Annotation: code and suggestion about manual AI configuration are raw yet! This code may be changed in future. This suggestion means that players can make their own code. A similar mechanics is now ingame, but without ability to use your own code! That's a problem.

Spoiler: Code

Quote:
Every tick AI will update some code. User can code it as he want. And save template too.

All may be the same as in variant 1, but target priority.

Drone will use a method to choose target. Rule is easy: drone will attack entity with highest priority value. Priority value = getPriority(args);

For default this method will be:
int getPriority(Entity entity)
{
if(!isEnemy) return 0;//It mean that drone will not attack target if it is not enemy.

if(isOutOfRange()) return 1;//It mean that drone don't want attack target if it is out of weapon's range. But it will attack it if here is no other enemies.

if(isAlreadyAttacking()) return 100000;//If drone is already attacking, it will continue;

return 100000/range;//Else it will attack closest enemy.

}

For example, bomber's code:

int getPriority(Entity entity)
{
if(!isEnemy) return 0;
int priority = 0;//Used to calculate

priority = (10000/ (range + 3000)) * entityMass * (1.25 - entityShieldLevel) * (1.25 - entityArmorLevel) * (1.25 - entityHullLevel);//Will want to attack closest biggest and most damaged entity

if(isAlreadyAttacking) priority *= 2;//If already attacking it, it will want to continue


return priority;

}

//If range = 3000, mass = 50000, shields = 100%, armor and hull = 100%, result will be = 1302;
//If range = 3000, mass = 50000, shields = 25%, armor and hull = 100%, result will be = 5213;
//If range = 3000, mass = 50000, shields = 0%, armor = 50% and hull = 100%, result will be = 19531;
//You can make a desicion
//For example, bomber will not be interesting in attacking of light ships like:
//Light ship 1: range = 3000, mass = 1000, shields = 0%, armor = 50% and hull = 100%, result will be = 390;
//Light ship 2: range = 500, mass = 2000, shields = 0%, armor = 50% and hull = 100% result will be = 1399; As you can see 1399 is more than 1302, so bomber will choose to attack damaged medium ship against non-damaged heavy ship. It allows you to choose what you want.


For example, fighter's code:

int getPriority(Entity entity)
{
if(!isEnemy) return 0;
int priority = 0;

priority = (5000 / range) * (500/(abs(entityMass - 150) + 1) * (200 + entitySpeed);//Drone will want to attack fastest closest ship with mass closest to 150.

if(isAlreadyAttacking) priority *= 10;

return 0;
}

 

[Edymnion]

Yes, please jijiji, show us your 500 block AI brain build for your bomber.

Seeing as how its a bomber, I'm assuming it has a big missile bomb, hence its best against large targets. So, here's my take on it:

Bobby
Target:Ship - Mass - Activator On

"Aim at the ship" with "Mass 100%", aka aim at the single largest ship in sight. Or we could expand it to:

Bobby
Target:Station
Target:Ship - Mass - Activator On

There, 3 extra blocks under the thread topic way of doing it to have your bomber target the largest ship in sight. Or we can go for 4 extra blocks and it will now do bombing runs against stations and ignore ships until the station is destroyed, and will then turn on the ships, destroying them in order from largest to smallest.

 

[jijiji]

I would be fine with seeing a proper AI-interface out of a single block as well, if it could allow the same degree of flexibility!! This will also increase server load!!1! Every entity will still have to be checked for AI actions, whether it arises from blocks or from background code!!!11!

...so...

All arguments from expertise, loud text coloration and emphatic insistence aside, BOTH approaches would result in a similar server load to calculate AI and a non-block AI can easily cause killer server load as well (unless you incorrectly believe that poorly implemented non-block AI cannot).

A server load to calculate AI already exists, as well, which would be replaced by any new model, so we are not talking about load on top of current AI, we are looking at it replacing current AI in both cases. You've yet to demonstrate how your model is better except by saying very loudly that "you know" and we should just accept that you know best. Just because. There is no evidence and it flies directly in the face of what Edymnion specifically wrote about retaining the ability to implement a fully functioning replica of the current AI with a single block. You are literally just shouting Edymnion down with lies & fallacies.

Block controlled AI can to be handled by server. We are talking about heavy configuration.

Sorry if I did something wrong.

Please do within the context of what Edymnion has actually suggest here, because from what you are saying, you still have not read through his whole post and actually understood what he is proposing, yet you continue to camp his thread and shout him down.

Show us, please, how a system where a player is able to add one Bobby AI block to give a bomber AI orders to "TARGET ALL" - exactly as proposed in the OP - somehow forces players to use 50o blocks to get that same bomber AI to work.

Code posted in previous post. Looks like here is error. Give me a second to fix it.

This I'd love to see. Enough shouting "guys I'm right, I know I'm right, believe me! It's bad! So Bad! My idea is most right!" Enough, already. Enough colors and exclamations.

Prove you are right. Prove that 1 = 500.

I can make a code for AI. But it's allowed only for developers. Edited: If you know any way to make code for this game, tell me and I will make it.
[doublepost=1482164675,1482164409][/doublepost]Ok I fixed bug of hidden code. It's short version of code. I will make full version of code soon, but now now.

Yes, please jijiji, show us your 500 block AI brain build for your bomber.

Seeing as how its a bomber, I'm assuming it has a big missile bomb, and at least some kind of secondary weapon. So, here's my take on it:

Bobby
Target:Ship - Mass - Activator On

"Aim at the ship" with "Mass 100%", aka aim at the single largest ship in sight. Or we could expand it to:

Bobby
Target:Station
Target:Ship - Mass - Activator On

There, 3 extra blocks under the thread topic way of doing it to have your bomber target the largest ship in sight. Or we can go for 4 extra blocks and it will now do bombing runs against stations and ignore ships until the station is destroyed, and will then turn on the ships, destroying them in order from largest to smallest.

Can you make block analog of my current code for bomber?

 

[madman Captain]

AI module->Shoot at missiles. 2 blocks.

If an AI turns invalid just have it turn off like it got shot out.

A menu, especially a big and in depth one, is something that's really not in the ethic of starmade right now, with everything being block based.

What you mean is immersive not ehtical, and a simple optical menu redesign would help by this problem.

Yes, please jijiji, show us your 500 block AI brain build for your bomber.

Seeing as how its a bomber, I'm assuming it has a big missile bomb, hence its best against large targets. So, here's my take on it:

Bobby
Target:Ship - Mass - Activator On

"Aim at the ship" with "Mass 100%", aka aim at the single largest ship in sight. Or we could expand it to:

Bobby
Target:Station
Target:Ship - Mass - Activator On

There, 3 extra blocks under the thread topic way of doing it to have your bomber target the largest ship in sight. Or we can go for 4 extra blocks and it will now do bombing runs against stations and ignore ships until the station is destroyed, and will then turn on the ships, destroying them in order from largest to smallest.

Ähhh... Sorry Guys but combat isnt that static that this AI controll system is. We need fast and comfortable ways to reajust AI even in combat.