Balancing blocks gut-check

[Energywelder]

So apparently there's a large debate going concerning someone's PvP ship which may or may not be a "cheat" and which i'm not weighing in on OR touching with a 31 and a half foot pole. Instead I want to see if people's moods have changed on balancing non-cube blocks since the last time i asked this ~2 years ago.

See, i've long held the opinion that . . . something like a wedge block, which occupies exactly half the volume a cube block does, but is made of the same material, should then have half the mass, hitpoints, etc.. And i bring this up again because some part of the above hotly debated ship includes non-cube blocks with disproportionate hp occupying the same space as a cube block.

Tbh people wouldn't deliberately lag servers this way if it wasn't profitable in some way (More hp per m^3), and i remember people deliberately arguing that this system remain in place because "otherwise people would only build ships made of non-cube blocks"? I still don't get that argument. So lets call this a hot take or gut check or whatever.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

If the blocks are decorative and have little to no impact on server/client performance, then I have no problem with it.

If they're using the "docked armor" trick to stack wedged armor blocks within the same physical space to create "double armor cubes", then that is an exploit. It's also highly inconsiderate to other players since it usually increases server lag and lowers client FPS.

Knowing this, I don't think you should only have half armor/HP on wedges and other "partial" blocks. On the other hand, there are some really impressive logic controlled, animated doors that depend on wedge overlap.

Perhaps damage should apply to all blocks occupying the same overlapping physical space; as if they were all simultaneously hit. That way, structures do not benefit from having overlapping blocks but they are also not penalized simply for having wedge/partial blocks.

What are your thoughts?

 

[kiddan]

With the health of a wedge chopped in half, would the fact that there's still two blocks in one space affect projectiles differently than a single full block? I'm not well-versed in combat mechanics, so if someone could shed some light on that I'd be grateful. (E.g: Do double slabs affect piercing, acid damage, etc)

 

[Energywelder]

If the blocks are decorative and have little to no impact on server/client performance, then I have no problem with it.

If they're using the "docked armor" trick to stack wedged armor blocks within the same physical space to create "double armor cubes", then that is an exploit. It's also highly inconsiderate to other players since it usually increases server lag and lowers client FPS.

Knowing this, I don't think you should only have half armor/HP on wedges and other "partial" blocks. On the other hand, there are some really impressive logic controlled, animated doors that depend on wedge overlap.

Perhaps damage should apply to all blocks occupying the same overlapping physical space; as if they were all simultaneously hit. That way, structures do not benefit from having overlapping blocks but they are also not penalized simply for having wedge/partial blocks.

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts are they're stacking non cube blocks within the same cubic space because they get more hp/m^3, which is the whole point of balancing the hp/block. Also only wedges would get exactly 1/2 hp, blocks that are even smaller get even less. Minimum size slabs are like .25m^3, so they get 1/4 the hp. That would mean docked armor would have no point except as ablative armor which . . . wouldn't even need to be docked to be effective.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

My thoughts are they're stacking non cube blocks within the same cubic space because they get more hp/m^3, which is the whole point of balancing the hp/block. Also only wedges would get exactly 1/2 hp, blocks that are even smaller get even less. Minimum size slabs are like .25m^3, so they get 1/4 the hp. That would mean docked armor would have no point except as ablative armor which . . . wouldn't even need to be docked to be effective.

Perhaps I should clarify my point.

Whether you have 2 wedges, 4 1/4-slabs or you are clipping via docking, plex-doors, etc., you are essentially making multiple blocks occupy the same cubic meter space. The complaint is that this increases armor per cubic meter based on how much slabbing/clipping/wedging you do.

There's no need to reduce the HP of the slabs; just make it so that if more than one block occupies the same 1 cubic meter space and they get shot, ALL blocks in that space take the normal damage rather than slabs 1 and two blocking the damage and leaving slabs 3 and 4 intact.

Does that make sense?

 

[Energywelder]

Perhaps I should clarify my point.

Whether you have 2 wedges, 4 1/4-slabs or you are clipping via docking, plex-doors, etc., you are essentially making multiple blocks occupy the same cubic meter space. The complaint is that this increases armor per cubic meter based on how much slabbing/clipping/wedging you do.

There's no need to reduce the HP of the slabs; just make it so that if more than one block occupies the same 1 cubic meter space and they get shot, ALL blocks in that space take the normal damage rather than slabs 1 and two blocking the damage and leaving slabs 3 and 4 intact.

Does that make sense?

I understand what you're saying, but the issue remains that even if they all get hit, you've still abused the system to increase what armor you have into an exploity density. You'd still have (in the case of four 1/4 slabs) 4x the hp per m^3 and all the lag that comes with. Making them all get hit by one shot wouldn't accomplish as much as just balancing the blocks.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

I understand what you're saying, but the issue remains that even if they all get hit, you've still abused the system to increase what armor you have into an exploity density. You'd still have (in the case of four 1/4 slabs) 4x the hp per m^3 and all the lag that comes with. Making them all get hit by one shot wouldn't accomplish as much as just balancing the blocks.

Actually it would work. Here's why.

Let's say you have 2 slabs/wedges in place and they get shot. In my idea, they'd both take the full damage independently of each other. That way, all overlapping blocks lose effective HP at the same rate so the weakest ones are destroyed first. Meanwhile, only the strongest block is taken into consideration with regard to armor, penetration and acid-damage-model (ADM) spread.

So in summary, you've taken on an overlapping set of blocks. They ALL take the hit and those with enough armor to remain intact do, while the others are lost. If all overlapping blocks are destroyed, only the strongest one registers as the starting point of penetration/ADM calculations.

Meanwhile, single block wedge/slab armor retains its full original HP and armor since there are no other blocks to enter into a calculation in case of a hit.

This way you've taken away the benefit of clipping but you have not to penalized normal (one block per cubic meter) builders.

 

[Energywelder]

Actually it would work. Here's why.

Let's say you have 2 slabs/wedges in place and they get shot. In my idea, they'd both take the full damage independently of each other. That way, all overlapping blocks lose effective HP at the same rate so the weakest ones are destroyed first. Meanwhile, only the strongest block is taken into consideration with regard to armor, penetration and acid-damage-model (ADM) spread.

So in summary, you've taken on an overlapping set of blocks. They ALL take the hit and those with enough armor to remain intact do, while the others are lost. If all overlapping blocks are destroyed, only the strongest one registers as the starting point of penetration/ADM calculations.

Meanwhile, single block wedge/slab armor retains its full original HP and armor since there are no other blocks to enter into a calculation in case of a hit.

This way you've taken away the benefit of clipping but you have not to penalized normal (one block per cubic meter) builders.

Ah i see, weapons do extra damage if they hit multiple blocks in the same cubic meter space . . .

While i'm sure that's possible, from a programming stand-point, i expect my solution to be the easier to implement.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

Ah i see, weapons do extra damage if they hit multiple blocks in the same cubic meter space . . .

While i'm sure that's possible, from a programming stand-point, i expect my solution to be the easier to implement.

Not "extra" damage. The same damage.

Example: If I fire a 1000 damage cannon round at 4 overlapping slabs, they'd all receive 1000 points of damage. Any overlapping block that cannot take 1000 damage is destroyed; regardless of how many other blocks (stronger or weaker) are in the same overlapping space.

The strongest block in the overlapping area will be the last block destroyed and that last block will be what determines penetration/ADM effects. If all overlapping blocks are equal in strength, then it won't matter which one starts the penetration/ADM effect calculation since all of them are destroyed at the same time and in the same physical space..

Programming wise, it's actually pretty easy to implement. The function would go something like...

"if multiple blocks at point of impact = true, then apply same damage to all blocks at point of impact."


While this is pretty dumb to have to plan around, shine could just as easily...
- block people from docking clippable structures via collision checks the way it does for solid objects.
- allow server admins to block clippable structures (both creation and uploading) via server config.

In any case, "cheating" by multiplying your armor isn't even the main problem with these weird builds. It's the lag they generate. I think a config that can block these things via collision checks is the easiest way to deal with the problem on servers but still let players tinker in single player.

What do you think?

 

[Energywelder]

Not "extra" damage. The same damage.

Example: If I fire a 1000 damage cannon round at 4 overlapping slabs, they'd all receive 1000 points of damage. Any overlapping block that cannot take 1000 damage is destroyed; regardless of how many other blocks (stronger or weaker) are in the same overlapping space.

The strongest block in the overlapping area will be the last block destroyed and that last block will be what determines penetration/ADM effects. If all overlapping blocks are equal in strength, then it won't matter which one starts the penetration/ADM effect calculation since all of them are destroyed at the same time and in the same physical space..

Programming wise, it's actually pretty easy to implement. The function would go something like...

"if multiple blocks at point of impact = true, then apply same damage to all blocks at point of impact."


While this is pretty dumb to have to plan around, shine could just as easily...
- block people from docking clippable structures via collision checks the way it does for solid objects.
- allow server admins to block clippable structures (both creation and uploading) via server config.

In any case, "cheating" by multiplying your armor isn't even the main problem with these weird builds. It's the lag they generate. I think a config that can block these things via collision checks is the easiest way to deal with the problem on servers but still let players tinker in single player.

What do you think?

What i'm hearing is "If cannon shoots 1000, and hits 4 1/4 slabs in the same m^3, and each receives 1000 damage, 4k damage is imparted onto the ship"

 

[Alphajim]

What i'm hearing is "If cannon shoots 1000, and hits 4 1/4 slabs in the same m^3, and each receives 1000 damage, 4k damage is imparted onto the ship"

Nah, it's more like "treat each overlapping block separately = regardless of the other blocks, each one will receive 1k damage, from the lowest strength to the best one". This way each block too weak for the 1k damage will be destroyed at the same time*. So overlapping blocks don't give any advantage.

* writing that down made me realize it's still a bit advantageous as you can theorically make a 4-time armor block, assuming your put 4 different blocks that have increasing strength, like (values are the block strength): 250 dmg / 500 dmg / 750 dmg / 1k dmg
If you take a 600 dmg shot, then you'll still have 2 blocks left... BUT it's as if you used a single 1k dmg strength block.
So idk

 

[Energywelder]

Nah, it's more like "treat each overlapping block separately = regardless of the other blocks, each one will receive 1k damage, from the lowest strength to the best one". This way each block too weak for the 1k damage will be destroyed at the same time*. So overlapping blocks don't give any advantage.

* writing that down made me realize it's still a bit advantageous as you can theorically make a 4-time armor block, assuming your put 4 different blocks that have increasing strength, like (values are the block strength): 250 dmg / 500 dmg / 750 dmg / 1k dmg
If you take a 600 dmg shot, then you'll still have 2 blocks left... BUT it's as if you used a single 1k dmg strength block.
So idk

Well yeah, but isn't that how bullets already work? 1k projectile hits 1 block, penetrates, hits the block behind it? And allowing each non-cubic block to absorb any amount of the projectiles damage defeats the purpose of this proposed balance. The issue at hand is clipping these non-cubic blocks like this allows an exploitive hp/m^3

 

[Alphajim]

Well yeah, but isn't that how bullets already work? 1k projectile hits 1 block, penetrates, hits the block behind it? And allowing each non-cubic block to absorb any amount of the projectiles damage defeats the purpose of this proposed balance. The issue at hand is clipping these non-cubic blocks like this allows an exploitive hp/m^3

Yep.

If clipping full blocks is impossible (and it should be), then it's more about adding 1/x slabs on the same block. We could make these with accurate HP (1/x of a full block) and make each slab act as a different block.
If it's too OP then use the average HP or the best/worst HP or even some maths. Then extrapolate it and make the whole composite block act as a single block of x HP.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

What i'm hearing is "If cannon shoots 1000, and hits 4 1/4 slabs in the same m^3, and each receives 1000 damage, 4k damage is imparted onto the ship"

No.

Nah, it's more like "treat each overlapping block separately = regardless of the other blocks, each one will receive 1k damage, from the lowest strength to the best one". This way each block too weak for the 1k damage will be destroyed at the same time*. So overlapping blocks don't give any advantage.

Yes.

* writing that down made me realize it's still a bit advantageous as you can theorically make a 4-time armor block, assuming your put 4 different blocks that have increasing strength, like (values are the block strength): 250 dmg / 500 dmg / 750 dmg / 1k dmg
If you take a 600 dmg shot, then you'll still have 2 blocks left... BUT it's as if you used a single 1k dmg strength block.
So idk

No. When the weapon hits, all four would take the full 1000 damage EACH. Blocks would not mitigate any of the damage since they all simultaneously take the same amount of damage. In your example, all four blocks would be destroyed. The point of this is to eliminate the armor advantages of having multiple blocks in the same space. Of course, we would have to consider the effects of armor on each block separately as well. But for now, we can just simplify to hammer out this concept as we've been doing.

Well yeah, but isn't that how bullets already work?

No actually. The physics of IRL bullets depend on the kind of round used, its shape, mass, velocity, the material it's made of and the material struck. I can give you an in depth explanation of how IRL bullets really work but that's outside the scope of this thread. PM me if you're interested. ...just don't tell my mom.

1k projectile hits 1 block, penetrates, hits the block behind it? And allowing each non-cubic block to absorb any amount of the projectiles damage defeats the purpose of this proposed balance. The issue at hand is clipping these non-cubic blocks like this allows an exploitive hp/m^3

Exactly.

This is why we must count the damage for each block separately but equally. Each has its own HP and armor, so any overlapping block that can survive on its own will survive. Any overlapping block that lacks the HP/armor needed to withstand an attack will be lost; leaving only the blocks strong enough to take the hit. However, these stronger blocks would be damaged by the weapon as if the other blocks had never existed.

Yep.

If clipping full blocks is impossible (and it should be), then it's more about adding 1/x slabs on the same block. We could make these with accurate HP (1/x of a full block) and make each slab act as a different block.
If it's too OP then use the average HP or the best/worst HP or even some maths. Then extrapolate it and make the whole composite block act as a single block of x HP.

For the record, clipping full blocks is possible via object spawning and spawning to rails as well as the use of plex-doors, glass doors, blast doors and intangible blocks like water and pickup/shootout rails. I've done these things by accident multiple times in single player. No doubt there are other options that I am not aware of.

If your goal is to remove the exploit of having multiple blocks per m^3, this can (and should) be done without altering the HP of slabs and wedges. You don't want to nerf everyone because of an exploit that Schine failed to eliminate.

As such, your best, and most fair option is to eliminate the exploit itself; at its specific points of occurrence as I've outlined above.

 

[Energywelder]

But isn't the problem with the current system that it allows this kind of exploit? What you're suggesting where each block inside the same space all the full damage, which means a 1k projectile actually will impart 4k damage (where there's 4 blocks inside the same space) you keep saying no but then say it again.

Just . . . lower the hp and mass on non-cubic blocks, don't need no fancy equations and mathematical studies.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

But isn't the problem with the current system that it allows this kind of exploit? What you're suggesting where each block inside the same space all the full damage, which means a 1k projectile actually will impart 4k damage (where there's 4 blocks inside the same space) you keep saying no but then say it again.

Just . . . lower the hp and mass on non-cubic blocks, don't need no fancy equations and mathematical studies.

Perhaps you've misinterpreted my meaning.

You are not doing 4K damage. You are doing 1K damage to everything in that one cubic meter space. At no point is damage added up, multiplied or increased in any way. It doesn't matter if you have one block or a dozen or a hundred. ALL blocks in that one cubic meter space simultaneously take the same hit at 1K damage.

That means...

- Your shields take 1K damage.

- With shields down, all overlapping blocks (no matter how many or how few) take 1K.

- With shields down, a single block that is not clipping/overlapping takes 1K.

- If the overlapping blocks have different HP values, they still all take only 1K. Anything in that 1m^3 space with less than 1k effective HP is destroyed. Anything with more than 1K effective HP will remain but take 1K damage.

- Penetration and acid damage effects are calculated only after all overlapping blocks are destroyed. Those blocks that are affected by penetration and acid damage will receive whatever damage is left over (out of 1K) from when the strongest overlapping block is destroyed.

Summary:

- You take away the advantage/incentive to clip blocks together for the purpose of armor stacking.

- The change only effects overlapping blocks so you avoid penalizing everyone who is not using the clipping exploit.

Now do you get it?

 

[Energywelder]

Perhaps you've misinterpreted my meaning.

You are not doing 4K damage. You are doing 1K damage to everything in that one cubic meter space. At no point is damage added up, multiplied or increased in any way. It doesn't matter if you have one block or a dozen or a hundred. ALL blocks in that one cubic meter space simultaneously take the same hit at 1K damage.

That means...

- Your shields take 1K damage.

- With shields down, all overlapping blocks (no matter how many or how few) take 1K.

- With shields down, a single block that is not clipping/overlapping takes 1K.

- If the overlapping blocks have different HP values, they still all take only 1K. Anything in that 1m^3 space with less than 1k effective HP is destroyed. Anything with more than 1K effective HP will remain but take 1K damage.

- Penetration and acid damage effects are calculated only after all overlapping blocks are destroyed. Those blocks that are affected by penetration and acid damage will receive whatever damage is left over (out of 1K) from when the strongest overlapping block is destroyed.

Summary:

- You take away the advantage/incentive to clip blocks together for the purpose of armor stacking.

- The change only effects overlapping blocks so you avoid penalizing everyone who is not using the clipping exploit.

Now do you get it?

No i understood you the second time. 1k damage would be imparted on the shields, np, but then, supposing shields are down and all the blocks have less than 1k health each, more 1k's worth of hp would be removed. If each block had like 400 health, and there's 4 of them, and they all receive 1k worth of damage, you just did 1.6k of health damage.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

No i understood you the second time. 1k damage would be imparted on the shields, np, but then, supposing shields are down and all the blocks have less than 1k health each, more 1k's worth of hp would be removed. If each block had like 400 health, and there's 4 of them, and they all receive 1k worth of damage, you just did 1.6k of health damage.

If the overlapping blocks are being damaged separately by the same 1K damage weapon, then the collective HP of all those overlapping blocks is irrelevant to this discussion; as it has no impact on damage to adjacent blocks or overall damage to the ship.

As such; I must conclude that you are either misinterpreting what I wrote or playing "devils advocate". If you really don't understand what I'm saying, I'll try to explain it a different way. However, please be advised; I'm not interested in engaging in a devil's advocate discussion.

 

[Energywelder]

If the overlapping blocks are being damaged separately by the same 1K damage weapon, then the collective HP of all those overlapping blocks is irrelevant to this discussion; as it has no impact on damage to adjacent blocks or overall damage to the ship.

As such; I must conclude that you are either misinterpreting what I wrote or playing "devils advocate". If you really don't understand what I'm saying, I'll try to explain it a different way. However, please be advised; I'm not interested in engaging in a devil's advocate discussion.

I'm not playing devil's advocate, i'm just confused why you're pursuing such a circuitous route in solving this.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

I don't see what's so confusing about my idea. There's nothing "circuitous" about it.

According to your original post, you want to remove the benefit of overlapping multiple blocks within the same physical space and thus, disincentivise people from doing it. Am I right?

With respect; my idea accomplishes this goal while yours does not.

My idea not only solves the problem, but does so without impacting existing builds or the ways in which weapons affect them.

Your idea negatively impacts nearly all existing builds while leaving a few holes for determined "cheaters" to continue to exploit. The incentive to use the exploit would still exist under your plan; albeit to a lesser degree.