armor is trash

[FlyingDebris]

Okay so before you read this please bear in mind that I've had six cups of coffee and am studying for finals, plus I came up with this idea less than twenty seconds ago as of the time of writing this.


Anyways, armor is shit and we all know it.

edited out bad idea

How about, to fix it, we make it so weaps do 0 block damage to armor until AHP is, say, under 25%. Or rather, make it so that damage to a block of armor on a ship is multiplied by (1-[percentage of AHP remaining[)


So basically we could have it so that weapons have to drain AHP before they can do damage to armor or we could have it so that the damage increases with AHP lost.

Thoughts?

 

[Exozen]

probably better than the current shit, but the armor HP pool would need a massive buff
I remember a suggestion from Atra, something along the lines of "Armor should just ignore damage up until a certain threshold"

Though, keeping in mind armor+Shields, I feel like something can be done for Armor with Chambers.
Perhaps, a defensive effect tree (that can't be shared with a shield tree) that greatly improves armor

Other than that, Armor needs a flat baseline buff to how much damage each block can tank



(Edited)

 

[CyberTao]

Or rather, make it so that damage to a block of armor on a ship is multiplied by (1-[percentage of AHP remaining[)

This I can agree with. The issue with just flat taking 0 damage is that's basically another shield and fuck that tbqh. Having the armour pool absorb a slowly reducing fraction should make armour at least passable.

If you want another sleep deprived idea, have the shot deal damage along the entire thickness of the armour. Check how far it would travel before it reaches non-hull and then apply damage over those blocks a-la the piecing damage model, to vaguely simulate thicker armour absorbing more. Would help to docked the docked armour exploits that might pop up from just doing a flat damage reduction. I remember the walls of core armour.

 

[Lecic]

Well, for starters, when they stole a bit from block HP for other things, they accidentally nerfed the shit out of armor.
They increased the armor rating to try and balance the halving of max HP, but they seem to have forgotten that because of how pierce/punch interact with armor ratings, armor is now about half as effective as it used to be.

There is actually a setting in the configs to make the AHP absorption ratio match the % of AHP remaining. So, at 100% AHP it absorbs 100% damage of a shot, at 50% AHP is absorbs 50% damage of a shot (same as currently), etc.
I think this could be a good feature to enable IF it was combined with increased AHP given per armor block. The current numbers are far too low for a feature like this.

Also, I would like some more armor related chambers. The current ones are pretty boring and lackluster for the most part.

Cheapening the cost of higher tier armor would also help. Shields cost twice the amount per block, but because they prevent your ship from taking any damage until they break, they end up being much cheaper in the long run, and require less frequent returns to drydock for repairs.

I am absolutely opposed to the idea of making armor a "second shield" where the AHP absorbs all damage until it's depleted. We already have shields for that. Armor should be a unique protection system from shields.

 

[Dire Venom]

This I can agree with. The issue with just flat taking 0 damage is that's basically another shield and fuck that tbqh. Having the armour pool absorb a slowly reducing fraction should make armour at least passable.

If you want another sleep deprived idea, have the shot deal damage along the entire thickness of the armour. Check how far it would travel before it reaches non-hull and then apply damage over those blocks a-la the piecing damage model, to vaguely simulate thicker armour absorbing more. Would help to docked the docked armour exploits that might pop up from just doing a flat damage reduction. I remember the walls of core armour.

This^^^
I doubt we really want Armour to become docked shields again.
It makes a lot more sense for the more armour you have, the greater the structual integrity of the ship (e.g they are what is holding the ship together, as you mentioned).
I would personaly love if there were different types of armour that absorbed damage in different ways, e.g:

• Impulse spreads damage to nearby armour blocks
• Heavy has higher base resistance
• Light still remains the go-to for adding on more AHP
• Reactive Armour has a low damage resiatnce, however the resistance scales with the damage of the shot( e.g effective at tanking high damage burst, but breaks apart easily under low fire)

And so on.
With the end result that Armour placement and type MATTERS, and create a balanced form of defense for both players to work around.
Just an additional idea, I find one of the issues with defense is that decently damaging shots shots go right through multiple layers of armour and straight out the other side (4000 per each Advanced armour block plus an extra bit for system pen currently, easy to overpen every shot).
Maybe sometype, or just armour in general could dissapate additional damage if the block is destroyed:?

 

[FlyingDebris]

There is actually a setting in the configs to make the AHP absorption ratio match the % of AHP remaining. So, at 100% AHP it absorbs 100% damage of a shot, at 50% AHP is absorbs 50% damage of a shot (same as currently), etc.

so you're telling me it's already a thing and schine for whatever reason turned it off

 

[Dire Venom]

Well, for starters, when they stole a bit from block HP for other things, they accidentally nerfed the shit out of armor.
They increased the armor rating to try and balance the halving of max HP, but they seem to have forgotten that because of how pierce/punch interact with armor ratings, armor is now about half as effective as it used to be.

There is actually a setting in the configs to make the AHP absorption ratio match the % of AHP remaining. So, at 100% AHP it absorbs 100% damage of a shot, at 50% AHP is absorbs 50% damage of a shot (same as currently), etc.
I think this could be a good feature to enable IF it was combined with increased AHP given per armor block. The current numbers are far too low for a feature like this.

Also, I would like some more armor related chambers. The current ones are pretty boring and lackluster for the most part.

Cheapening the cost of higher tier armor would also help. Shields cost twice the amount per block, but because they prevent your ship from taking any damage until they break, they end up being much cheaper in the long run, and require less frequent returns to drydock for repairs.

I am absolutely opposed to the idea of making armor a "second shield" where the AHP absorbs all damage until it's depleted. We already have shields for that. Armor should be a unique protection system from shields.

Very informative, I did not know that exsisted!
I like the idea of scaling damage reduction.
Personaly, I would like my armour to be able to take a bit of damage without having to repair 20 outer broken blocks in obscure places after every combat; so it would be nice if the damage resistance started going down, at say 90% or so to give you a small buffer to destroy or get out before you take serious damage.
I know that shields currently fill this function, but I really hope that armour tanks can one day be a viable design :3
[doublepost=1512360513,1512360252][/doublepost]

so you're telling me it's already a thing and schine for whatever reason turned it off

Apparently Starmades balancing features come in the form of bugs and 'accidental' implimentations that were done while half drunk.
Next morning they wake up and go on trying to turn a rock into bread without realising theres already a freshly baked loaf on the shelf.

(Also, Armour should really be reworked before/alongside the weapons otherwise the weapon update will be kinda useless)

 

[Lecic]

so you're telling me it's already a thing and schine for whatever reason turned it off

Yes, much low how they could have fixed the shields aspect of docked hull and have been told this dozens of times yet for some reason have not turned it off.

 

[NeonSturm]

I agree that armour hp should become more transparent with missing %

 

[Non]

armor is shit and we all know it.

I get what you are saying, and generally armor does deserve a buff, but poorly designed armor is poorly designed armor. Realistic armor designs like spaced armor can be incredibly effective, and I get real tired of people pretending it doesn't exist.

 

[Lecic]

I get what you are saying, and generally armor does deserve a buff, but poorly designed armor is poorly designed armor. Realistic armor designs like spaced armor can be incredibly effective, and I get real tired of people pretending it doesn't exist.

Speaking as someone who was a member of a faction that used all sorts of armor techniques like spaced, composite layers, basic sponge, system compartmentalization, and just plain old 10+ thick layers of advanced...

Armor can be more effective than just plain armor when you use as many techniques as possible, yes, but it still flops compared to shields and stands no chance against the high penetration beam and cannon weapons, especially since the accidental armor nerf.

I will say that armor is very effective against missiles, though. There's nothing quite like watching a 100+ missile salvo with hundreds of thousands of damage only do 5% SHP. Until you realize there's already another salvo on the way, your AHP is 0%, and your armor belt is almost completely gone.