Planned AI movement for better dogfights

    Joined
    Apr 7, 2015
    Messages
    50
    Reaction score
    84
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Competition Winner - Small Fleets
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    *disclosure*
    I have no idea if this would work...

    Forcing AI to move forward more than other directions (or some alteration/variation of the like) would make AI, fighters especially, act more like planes in dogfights. This could decrease the huge spaces that appear in battles between ships and make ships swoop in for bombing runs etc.

    Again, I'm not sure if this would actually work, and its more of a tentative random thought I had when comparing StarMade with flight in other games.
     
    Joined
    Feb 25, 2016
    Messages
    1,362
    Reaction score
    268
    AI needs massive improvements regardless. But spaceships don't work like planes. That said, yes, they likely would come closer to their opponents to increase the chances of a hit. Larger vessels would stay closer to maximum weapons' range.
     

    Crimson-Artist

    Wiki Administrator
    Joined
    Sep 10, 2013
    Messages
    1,658
    Reaction score
    1,632
    • Video Genius
    • Competition Winner - Stations
    • Wiki Contributor Gold
    back in the day push clocks used to actually make the AI kind of hard to fight since they would always be moving forward. unfortunately ever since the Fleet update the AI now resists push clocks which is a real bummer. Still this suggestion falls under AI improvements and those are coming
     

    Ithirahad

    Arana'Aethi
    Joined
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages
    4,135
    Reaction score
    1,250
    • Purchased!
    • Top Forum Contributor
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    back in the day push clocks used to actually make the AI kind of hard to fight since they would always be moving forward. unfortunately ever since the Fleet update the AI now resists push clocks which is a real bummer. Still this suggestion falls under AI improvements and those are coming
    Yes, Crimson, but will those AI improvements actually include things like this? If there's anything we've seen from previous updates, it's that things like "AI updates" tend to be underwhelming and not actually include any of the community-requested features that made them so widely desired in the first place.
     

    Crimson-Artist

    Wiki Administrator
    Joined
    Sep 10, 2013
    Messages
    1,658
    Reaction score
    1,632
    • Video Genius
    • Competition Winner - Stations
    • Wiki Contributor Gold
    Yes, Crimson, but will those AI improvements actually include things like this? If there's anything we've seen from previous updates, it's that things like "AI updates" tend to be underwhelming and not actually include any of the community-requested features that made them so widely desired in the first place.
    I would imagine that it would. I originally thought that the AI would get a dramatic upgrade when the thrust update dropped but looks like schine is still working on that.
     
    Joined
    Dec 14, 2014
    Messages
    745
    Reaction score
    158
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    While Space craft are not airplanes plenty of stuff still can carry over. Flying in formation till they approach a target flying with wingmen.
    Strafing runs, closing for precision strikes, fleeing when damaged, evasion, and others.
    One of the biggest things I see that deters a good AI in this game is the weapons and ships abilities don't line up to make use of many tactics.
    Strafing runs are pretty much pointless same with precision targeting.
    Lets face it the tactics we have developed for aircraft came out of the roles they could play in a combat theater. A single aircraft in real life can take out an aircraft carrier with the right ordnance. We have had torpedoes now for better than 50 years that could find the keel of a ship and detonate effectively splitting the ship in two and sinking it. Punching through armor is a joke these days and has been for some time. Bunker buster bombs can count the floors they pass through before detonating, shape charges can cut through the thickest battleship armor that existed like it was butter. There is no technology that can't be undermined by another.

    If they did something like fix the explosion on the Mis+DP+OD so that it acted like a shape charge then you would have a reason for fighters to do something like strafes and precision attacks. But that would be only after shields were taken down. On a cap ship or large base it would take some strong fighters to take the shields down or a good number of fighters.

    Until weapons change to represent something more realistic using realistic tactics is pointless. Right now ships best tactics would be move around target in circle until shields hit 50% then move off recharge shield and repeat.

    Another option is that if shields were actually shields and not just the surface of blocks and say hung out 5% the size of the ships dimension then a fighter could fly up past the shield and deliver a payload while a cap ship would have to first take down the shield. As to fighters being hit well they are much smaller and their shields would be much closer to their skin because the 5% of their dimension is much smaller than 5% of a cap ships dimension.
     
    Joined
    Feb 25, 2016
    Messages
    1,362
    Reaction score
    268
    Bubble shields were tested and rejected a long time ago due to the lag they caused.
     

    Lukwan

    Human
    Joined
    Oct 30, 2015
    Messages
    691
    Reaction score
    254
    Interesting dogfights would probably resemble the style of combat shown in Babylon-5. When you see smaller craft maneuvering they drift and slide while rotating for facing. There is still piloting going on.

    For SM, capitol ships will likely not have the speed and agility for rapid maneuvers but they will always sport turrets aplenty. If you are engaging smaller ships, facing your foe is more about achieving lock-on and keeping main weapons facing opponent, but they will not have any trouble keeping you in their cross-hairs.

    Meaningful combat maneuvers (dogfights) will happen more with the mid-sized ships. Mid-sized vessels do not have many turrets so must be able to face their enemy (unless they do nothing but spam swarmers) and here is where enemies may benefit from agility. Strafing past your enemy and being able to turn on dime to target their aft will make a difference since you will avoid a lot of return-fire if you can outmaneuver.

    I do want the AI to improve dogfights but it might be more involved than just getting the AI to move forward. My most effective design in SM is meant to be flown in reverse or sideways during combat. I have played a couple space dog-fighting games where I was constantly spinning around to track enemies that flew circles around me hardly ever getting shots on target. These games made dog-fighting frustrating and unworkable so I guess that it's not easy to dial in the AI for interesting battles. :(
     
    Joined
    Feb 25, 2016
    Messages
    1,362
    Reaction score
    268
    In space, capital vessels must generally start engagements with minimal movement. They have so much inertia, they can't go plunging into a battle at maximum velocity. Caps would also have to maneuver very little. Very much a slugging fest in space. Fighters maneuver a lot, of course, but the midsize vessels are responsible for tactical maneuvers. They flank, strike, and fade, doing damage to specific targets.
     
    Joined
    Jul 15, 2014
    Messages
    502
    Reaction score
    104
    Having fighters move like vipers in Battlestar Galactica is the dream.
     
    Joined
    Jul 15, 2014
    Messages
    502
    Reaction score
    104
    More realistic. They can turn at a similar speed to small ships in Starmade, and can strafe (but not quickly). Basically, the player can already move like them, just not the AI. I think what would work best is to be able to save some settings on the ship (ie thrust set up, weapon preference etc), so the AI knows how to behave when operating it.
     
    Joined
    Dec 14, 2014
    Messages
    745
    Reaction score
    158
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    I noticed something today. I guess I never really paid attention to it in the past for some reason or another.
    One thing hindering standard dog fight techniques is a lack of certain control maneuvers. The controls currently are based on thrust mechanics alone which is correct for general space movement. However it prevents banks and turns.
    It isn't that banks and turns can't be done in space they can. It requires the control systems being setup to allow for it. Doing so doesn't prevent standard space movements or things like slides or flying backwards or any of that. It can be as simple as a switch between two modes.
    Wing Commander one of the first space games I played actually had that ability. So do many other space games elite and X.
    Basically it is two modes of operations. The first is the direction the ship is facing thrust is applied to correct direction the second being manual thrust control.
     
    Joined
    Feb 25, 2016
    Messages
    1,362
    Reaction score
    268
    So, a non-Newtonian corrected flight mode? Basically, inefficiency in thrust in return for aircraft-like motion? Is that what you're thinking, GRHayes?
     
    Joined
    Dec 14, 2014
    Messages
    745
    Reaction score
    158
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    So, a non-Newtonian corrected flight mode? Basically, inefficiency in thrust in return for aircraft-like motion? Is that what you're thinking, GRHayes?
    I'm saying use all the physics and so on. Just that when you point the craft in any direction the ships computer system compensate and start applying thrust to move in that direction.
    There would be a change in efficiency of thrust it simply would be an issue of the on board computer making the calculations and doing the work to get the pilots desired outcome.

    Think of it this way. We are flying around in space with advanced technology and computers. Just maybe we should take advantage of that concept and make like computers are there and that we can use them for something other than decoration.

    I do find it funny though they have missile flight in this game works pretty well and smooth yet my mining craft can't make it to an asteroid and mine.

    It also makes it easier to control AI when they have that ability.
     
    Joined
    Feb 25, 2016
    Messages
    1,362
    Reaction score
    268
    So, you point in a direction, the computer reduces your velocity in all other directions, and accelerates you in that direction?

    As long as it's a toggle. High-speed strafing and similar maneuvers are easier with the present uncorrected system.
    Also, if you want this, you could just hold the slow-down button (Whatever it is)
     

    NeonSturm

    StormMaker
    Joined
    Dec 31, 2013
    Messages
    5,111
    Reaction score
    617
    • Wired for Logic
    • Thinking Positive
    • Legacy Citizen 5
    I think Shine has a great idea how to make the UI and Game-Engine, but has no plan how an AI looks like. I think what they do is failing until they succeed.

    The human mind is a pattern matching machine (maybe it's more, but is it definitively).
    The AI should counteract what the player is trying to do.
    The AI should have an idea of what will happen (first target, damage expectations) and adjust their strategy to a few expectations.

    If the AI can do less, I wouldn't call it AI, AB (Artificial Behaviour).
     
    Joined
    Dec 14, 2014
    Messages
    745
    Reaction score
    158
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    So, you point in a direction, the computer reduces your velocity in all other directions, and accelerates you in that direction?

    As long as it's a toggle. High-speed strafing and similar maneuvers are easier with the present uncorrected system.
    Also, if you want this, you could just hold the slow-down button (Whatever it is)
    Doesn't work quite the same. You also only have 6 keys to apply thrust in any direction at max using 3 to create a combined vector. That however doesn't seem to always work. This would 100% of the time.
    Having it where you can switch between modes makes it vastly better for combat. Try doing combat with the current controls in a close environment such as an arena or asteroid field that is dense. With the control system I am talking about you can easily skirt around objects and take far better advantage of the capabilities of the ship you are in.

    Tell you how you can test how good your current control system is build a simple course in a 10K sector. make the track 25*25 width and height. Build yourself some fair size turns 200 blocks but keep it the 25 width. See how well you do making that turn at 100 or 50 ...
    [doublepost=1470903404,1470902990][/doublepost]
    I think Shine has a great idea how to make the UI and Game-Engine, but has no plan how an AI looks like. I think what they do is failing until they succeed.

    The human mind is a pattern matching machine (maybe it's more, but is it definitively).
    The AI should counteract what the player is trying to do.
    The AI should have an idea of what will happen (first target, damage expectations) and adjust their strategy to a few expectations.

    If the AI can do less, I wouldn't call it AI, AB (Artificial Behaviour).
    An AI can only go by what the AI can perceive in game. It associates that with states. Which is in fact what most game AIs are state machines.
    Depending on the state it determines the action of the AI.
    For example the AI's health could be below 50% and then it may retreat. Or it could just be the shields are below 50% and it backs off till they come back up. You could set the AI to attack retreating enemies. Retreating might be determined by the players attempt to get ground between it and the AI or distance in short. Countless states can be added and then they can be prioritized. Then they can be given different behavior patterns also. Such as one AI might heal first before attacking if he is really low in health another AI could be set to go berserk and just attack being close to death.
    No AI however can actually tell what a players intent is. At least not.
     

    Lukwan

    Human
    Joined
    Oct 30, 2015
    Messages
    691
    Reaction score
    254
    This is what I am finding non-intuitive:

    When I am at maximum speed moving straight ahead and then when I apply thrust upwards, downwards , left or right I loose maximum velocity (the meters/second bar dips). Why? My dampers should only impede movement when I am at full stop (or when no people are on board). With Newtonian physics I should not slow down unless faced with air-resistance...I am in space. This makes side-slipping feel completely wrong in SM. Other space games I have played got this right and the combat felt more intuitive and natural as a result. In SM this just makes my ship feel clunky, like it is fighting me.

    Please, can we keep all of our momentum during maneuvers?