AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!Space Engeneers have better planets!

[Keptick]

I mean that I don't like the idea of kilometer-wide salvage titans just eating everything from orbit and crashing servers, because with these planet sizes that is inevitably what is going to happen. A drill for small extractor hoverships would be good, but having multiples should have exponential power calculation or something to avoid drill blankets that would also crash servers from all the voxelmap updates.

Assuming that it didn't crash servers (which I don't think it does anymore) and that it was perfectly smooth performance wise, what would be wrong with planet mining? Idk about you, but the prospect of eating a freaking PLANET for resources has always been pretty interesting :P

 

[Ithirahad]

Assuming that it didn't crash servers (which I don't think it does anymore) and that it was perfectly smooth performance wise, what would be wrong with planet mining? Idk about you, but the prospect of eating a freaking PLANET for resources has always been pretty interesting :p

"Interesting" in the same way that blowing up a star is interesting. Awesome, but for gameplay reasons it shouldn't be possible, plain and simple. At least, it shouldn't be possible to eat a planet until you've first blown it up, and blowing planets up should not be nearly as trivial as it is now.

 

[banks456]

Hello,
So i was watching Space Engeneers and I noticed that they have huge planets.
Starmade doesn't have huge planets because of bad performance but asswell the reson of this performance is because blocks that we can't see are generated,
Example: Half the planet that we can't see is generating for no reson this includes underground blocks and generating blocks in cubes instead of first what you can see.

But I did notice some huge performance gain in Starmade over this year,I started from 30 fps to 110 fps.
And now i load up huge planets That I can land my medium ships on it .Or having a battle of 6 medium ships with 20 helicopters(but the reason I did not have huge performance drop is because I was only seeing 2 of the medium ships) or having a battle of 1000 fighters(Yes I did).

Space Engineers has it draw backs as well but the planets are beautiful. I secretly hope one day that Starmade could pull off planets such as the ones in Space Engineers but both games are on different Engines and I don't think the devs for Starmade want round planets. I believe STarmade's vision and the direction it's going in is completely different than Space Engineers but I have to admit I was impressed by Space Engineer's planets. I would love to see Starmade get rid of whats left of the minecraft looking planets and replace them with something like a it belongs in normal Space Sim game . There are other voxel base games coming out in the future like Planet Nomad that has real planets in them, so it would be nice to see Starmade jump into the competition because I believe they could beat out other games if they let go of the minecraft look.
[DOUBLEPOST=1453071845,1453070729][/DOUBLEPOST]

Kek, it seems... well, what's new, Keen sucks. I wasn't aware that the suck extended this far, but this is still off-topic and doesn't say anything about their planets' technical structure.



That's not to say that procedural mapping has never worked for making things like this; it's been done before and is being done again (No Man's Sky comes to mind). Just that their implementation, which may or may not have been really shitty, did not work.


That's because Schine has an awesome and dedicated dev team... If SE had applied the same principles with their studio size and game concept they would have blown SM out of the water. To be fair, though, if you want a cockpit pod for your helm position in StarMade, you currently have to build it for purely aesthetic reasons (or plan it out from the start and build the ship so the core is in the pod), unlike SE. (this is changing soon though) And StarMade's rails have their own problems, although they are a lot less noticeable. Also, most of SE's problems come from its overcomplicated and evidently badly-written physics engine, problems we never ran into (literally or figuratively) because our physics engine is basically "fly into something at 300 m/s and either stop with no damage or glitch inside and start wiggling and derping all around until the game gives up and ejects you from the entity you're stuck inside."

StarMade does definitely have the right idea - that's why I'm still around, after all. I'm not suggesting that the team pull a Keen and start throwing random shit in the game because the community, or some whiny sector of the community, yelled the loudest, hell no. This is a discussion specifically about SE's planet system, and how it can be, potentially, adapted for StarMade. Not "The official yell about dev teams we don't like and praise Schine for all their greatness topic."

I have played both games because I still like parts of Space Engineers and I still love parts of Starmade. Honestly SE is still in development the game is not even finished. Keens only issue is they care more about pleasing cry babies that want everything right now instead of getting everything right the first time. Every single day for months people cried and beg for the planets to come out.
SE does have big issues with simulation speed and some bugs but everytime I buy game in Early access on Steam I understand I'm not buying a finished product and everything that promised is subject to change until that game is fully released. Starmade on the other hand, seems to the more concern about getting things right and doesn't care if players want it now. lol I respect that but Space Engineers does one thing better than any other game and that is the let the community drive the game. It's a free for all in that game. If you want something changed in that game then mod it yourself or wait for a player to do for you. I've never see so many amazing player created mods in one game in my life. Every block, every skin, every script,every weapon and even planets have tons of player created mods . There is nothing in Space Engineers that hasn't been modded by multiple players. All Keen has to focus on now is fixing the game and judging by their 2016 road map, 2016 is going to be all about fixing bugs and performance. I don't know if players have access to weapons and Engines in Starmade to mod them but it would be nice if they could.

 

[therimmer96]

First of all, NECROOOOOOOOOOOO

I would love to see Starmade get rid of whats left of the minecraft looking planets

I doubt this would happen. Starmades planets could be really nice and not rely on ditching blocks. Might also add that implementing true voxels like SE would be a silly difficult task and really ruin the feel of the game imo.

replace them with something like a it belongs in normal Space Sim game

Starmade isn't exactly a normal space sim. We already have blocky everything, if anything, adding voxel based planets would ruin that.

There are other voxel base games coming out in the future like Planet Nomad that has real planets in them, so it would be nice to see Starmade jump into the competition because I believe they could beat out other games if they let go of the minecraft look.

Lots of games are coming out with "Full scale" realistic planets. adding another game that does that into the mix would be a bad thing. We need something to set them apart, and IMO, the way to do that is to absolutely nail the blocky planets concept.

I've never see so many amazing player created mods in one game in my life. Every block, every skin, every script,every weapon and even planets have tons of player created mods .

Minecraft, Skyrim, Fallouts, source based games, Arma, GTA games, Cities skylines, ETS2, KSP, SoaSE:R and literally anything on this list http://store.steampowered.com/tag/en/Moddable/#p=6&tab=NewReleases

Mods aren't exactly an SE thing :P

 

[banks456]

First of all, NECROOOOOOOOOOOO


I doubt this would happen. Starmades planets could be really nice and not rely on ditching blocks. Might also add that implementing true voxels like SE would be a silly difficult task and really ruin the feel of the game imo.


Starmade isn't exactly a normal space sim. We already have blocky everything, if anything, adding voxel based planets would ruin that.


Lots of games are coming out with "Full scale" realistic planets. adding another game that does that into the mix would be a bad thing. We need something to set them apart, and IMO, the way to do that is to absolutely nail the blocky planets concept.


Minecraft, Skyrim, Fallouts, source based games, Arma, GTA games, Cities skylines, ETS2, KSP, SoaSE:R and literally anything on this list http://store.steampowered.com/tag/en/Moddable/#p=6&tab=NewReleases

Mods aren't exactly an SE thing :p

KSP I will give you that. That is a pretty cool game. I spent as much time in KSP as I have in Starmade which is a lot but In my opinion nobody does it like Space Engineers, their modding community is just on a different level. I didn't say they were the only ones, I just said they do it better than any other voxel based game out there. I believe I read some where that Space Engineers open up the entire code to their game to anybody in the modding community.
[DOUBLEPOST=1453073474,1453072839][/DOUBLEPOST]

First of all, NECROOOOOOOOOOOO


I doubt this would happen. Starmades planets could be really nice and not rely on ditching blocks. Might also add that implementing true voxels like SE would be a silly difficult task and really ruin the feel of the game imo.


Starmade isn't exactly a normal space sim. We already have blocky everything, if anything, adding voxel based planets would ruin that.


Lots of games are coming out with "Full scale" realistic planets. adding another game that does that into the mix would be a bad thing. We need something to set them apart, and IMO, the way to do that is to absolutely nail the blocky planets concept.


Minecraft, Skyrim, Fallouts, source based games, Arma, GTA games, Cities skylines, ETS2, KSP, SoaSE:R and literally anything on this list http://store.steampowered.com/tag/en/Moddable/#p=6&tab=NewReleases

Mods aren't exactly an SE thing :p

LOL I bring conversations and topics back to life. Oh well. I thought was a interesting conversation.

 

[Keptick]

Space Engineers has it draw backs as well but the planets are beautiful. I secretly hope one day that Starmade could pull off planets such as the ones in Space Engineers but both games are on different Engines and I don't think the devs for Starmade want round planets. I believe STarmade's vision and the direction it's going in is completely different than Space Engineers but I have to admit I was impressed by Space Engineer's planets. I would love to see Starmade get rid of whats left of the minecraft looking planets and replace them with something like a it belongs in normal Space Sim game . There are other voxel base games coming out in the future like Planet Nomad that has real planets in them, so it would be nice to see Starmade jump into the competition because I believe they could beat out other games if they let go of the minecraft look.
[DOUBLEPOST=1453071845,1453070729][/DOUBLEPOST]


I have played both games because I still like parts of Space Engineers and I still love parts of Starmade. Honestly SE is still in development the game is not even finished. Keens only issue is they care more about pleasing cry babies that want everything right now instead of getting everything right the first time. Every single day for months people cried and beg for the planets to come out.
SE does have big issues with simulation speed and some bugs but everytime I buy game in Early access on Steam I understand I'm not buying a finished product and everything that promised is subject to change until that game is fully released. Starmade on the other hand, seems to the more concern about getting things right and doesn't care if players want it now. lol I respect that but Space Engineers does one thing better than any other game and that is the let the community drive the game. It's a free for all in that game. If you want something changed in that game then mod it yourself or wait for a player to do for you. I've never see so many amazing player created mods in one game in my life. Every block, every skin, every script,every weapon and even planets have tons of player created mods . There is nothing in Space Engineers that hasn't been modded by multiple players. All Keen has to focus on now is fixing the game and judging by their 2016 road map, 2016 is going to be all about fixing bugs and performance. I don't know if players have access to weapons and Engines in Starmade to mod them but it would be nice if they could.

Starmade doesn't intentionally have non-spherical planets. It's because it's impossible to make spherical planets with a cubic grid based build system like we currently have.

If you want to see for yourself, grab some legos and try to make a sphere. Ok, now you have to be able to stick a lego character on any angle/surface of that sphere and have it stick there (I mean the feet have to clip to the stubs on the surface of the lego block). In addition, you must be able to "dig" into your spherical lego planet by removing block, from any angle.

There you go. It's impossible. What you COULD do is angle different plates using those lego hinge blocks, and give them a limited depth. That way you could stick your lego character on multiple different angles and have a roughly spherical shape that can be "dug" into up to a certain depth. That's essentially what starmade has at the moment.

 

[Pacific_Jim]

To be honest other than performance, and a bit of... weirdness... in the generation (floating platforms, trees half embedded in the earth etc) my only real issue with planets is that once you've seen one you've seen them all. I would imagine that will improve as more is added to the game, we could do with more things like the cities and pyramids from earlier builds.

As far as size and aesthetics goes I think the Starmade planets are fine really. The blockiness fits the games feel more than a realistic look would and as performance improves the size will become less of an issue. We could just a bit better generation for them.

 

[Nickizzy]

Is it posible to have planets have their plates go all the way down, and make the core really small? Think a sphere cut like a pizza, where only the center has the core, and all the plates go down in coneish shapes until a core about 30 blocks wide.

Probably not good for lag, but lets you dig down way farther than before.

 

[jayman38]

Is it posible to have planets have their plates go all the way down, and make the core really small? Think a sphere cut like a pizza, where only the center has the core, and all the plates go down in coneish shapes until a core about 30 blocks wide.

Probably not good for lag, but lets you dig down way farther than before.

Rumor has it that planets will be getting bigger in the future after some optimizations, which might logically lead to thicker plates. Time will tell.

 

[banks456]

Starmade doesn't intentionally have non-spherical planets. It's because it's impossible to make spherical planets with a cubic grid based build system like we currently have.

If you want to see for yourself, grab some legos and try to make a sphere. Ok, now you have to be able to stick a lego character on any angle/surface of that sphere and have it stick there (I mean the feet have to clip to the stubs on the surface of the lego block). In addition, you must be able to "dig" into your spherical lego planet by removing blocks.

There you go. It's impossible. What you COULD do is angle different plates using those lego hinge blocks, and give them a limited depth. That way you could stick your lego character on multiple different angles and have a roughly spherical shape that can be "dug" into up to a certain depth. That's essentially what starmade has at the moment.

Ok I thought the devs didn't want Sphere shaped planets. I stand corrected .. Thanks
[DOUBLEPOST=1453253194,1453252988][/DOUBLEPOST]

Rumor has it that planets will be getting bigger in the future after some optimizations, which might logically lead to thicker plates. Time will tell.

That's good news. Is 900m Planets too much to ask for?

 

[Keptick]

Ok I thought the devs didn't want Sphere shaped planets. I stand corrected .. Thanks
[DOUBLEPOST=1453253194,1453252988][/DOUBLEPOST]

That's good news. Is 900m Planets too much to ask for?

Not if you have the hardware to support it (that's a 1000 radius planet btw)

 

[karkinosz]

Not if you have the hardware to support it (that's a 1000 radius planet btw)

#1000rclub, I feel we are a relatively exclusive group :P

 

[Blodge]

Not if you have the hardware to support it (that's a 1000 radius planet btw)

Now that's a planet!

 

[Ithirahad]

Yeah, with LOD and saving optimization (store a seed for unloaded chunks or plates!) planets like that could be alright. Exactly twice that size seems optimal.

 

[Lord_Greyscale]

MC doesn't have easy-customizable vehicles nor compact logic and SM currently improves a lot on it.
Also crafting in SM is a lot easier and physics/automation more flexible - not really equal games.​

While this is absolutely true for Minecraft "straight from the box" it's generally NOT true of Modded Minecraft.

With Mods, (and Starmade has precious little ability to mod) you can, say, load LittleBlocks mod, thus allowing you to stuff 512 functioning Redstone blocks into a single 1x1x1 meter cube. That's a gloriously massive cut-down in the size of a typical redstone logic system.
StarMade can't. So far as I'm aware, it's Un-possible, because the base code allowing for that kind of modification simply doesn't exist.

The vehicles though? Again, mostly the same argument. Modded Minecraft CAN. To varying degrees.
My current favorite on this front is Archimedes' Ships, which allows you to build a ship much like we do in StarMade. Is it "just as easy"? No, StarMade let's you build mostly without Gravity, and has a separate build mode.
Minecraft-style is the equivalent of allways gravity and no build-mode.
Naturally, as with any mod, there are bugs. But, isn't StarMade currently kinda bug-riddled? (several of those bugs even keep coming back from the dead)

Agreed fully on the point of them being very different games though. They are and not simply because one of them can be fairly easily modified.
It's all about the Focal point. Minecraft is Single world, and was never intended for vehicles.
at this point, StarMade is all about the vehicles.


On to the Actual topic of Planets:

The only real complaints I have about them right now, are their "thin-ness", and their near-total un-optimized nature.

Thinness, as in, on most of the ones I find, the terrain generation has gone for the "valley" type, instead of "plain" or "mountain", and so there isn't much more than 5, maybe 8 blocks of depth before I'm standing on the core. (this is explicitly ignoring the plate edges, as those are the radius, with no variation in them. it's the "middle" of the plate that's most important for base-building)

Eliminating the "valley" generation type would help massively on that front, and so too would optimizing the planets.

Optimizing them would be a fairly simple thing, don't render a plate or block if my camera cannot see it AND if it is not within 20 meters of my astronaut's position. (EXCEPTION: Build-mode from a build-block on the planet, in which case, you still don't render the other plates.)
That's all there is to that.

Just from the sheer number of blocks involved, planets are going to be laggy. There is nearly no getting around that, and what few ways there are, I don't know enough about to say whether they'd be usefull for StarMade.
I will suggest making the rendering of planets an entirely client-side operation. Collision physics? that's still a server thing, but the server shouldn't need to be bogged down with the visuals of the game.



SIDENOTE: I never understood why they didn't go for 12, or even 20 sided planets.

I can easily see 12 sided ones looking a little better than what we have, because the angles involved aren't as acute.

a 20 sider wouldn't have as much room per individual plate, but it's certainly look even better from orbit, as it'd seem MUCH more round than the 10 siders we have now.


And sorry to everyone for the long-windedness of this post.​

 

[NeonSturm]

I read false statements!

Optimizing them would be a fairly simple thing, don't render a plate or block if my camera cannot see it AND if it is not within 20 meters of my astronaut's position. (EXCEPTION: Build-mode from a build-block on the planet, in which case, you still don't render the other plates.)
That's all there is to that.

Just from the sheer number of blocks involved, planets are going to be laggy. There is nearly no getting around that, and what few ways there are, I don't know enough about to say whether they'd be usefull for StarMade.
I will suggest making the rendering of planets an entirely client-side operation. Collision physics? that's still a server thing, but the server shouldn't need to be bogged down with the visuals of the game.

Rendering is all about sorting out visible from non-visible in the final step.
The performance depends on the level-of-detail and how many objects you can sort out before doing depth-tests of triangles, pixels and block-faces.

Rendering is already completely client-side.
What is causing lag is the data-transfer from server to client and the world-generation algorithm for new planets and collision-checks (client could cheat).

a 20 sider wouldn't have as much room per individual plate, but it's certainly look even better from orbit, as it'd seem MUCH more round than the 10 siders we have now.

If you have 20 instead of 12 plates, each plate will have 1/2 area (roughly 71% of the current radius).


I would like to have better orientations. Earth has oceans, Even mars has craters, some other planets have moons which help you roughly estimating the spin-axis of the planet.
Oceans would reduce the number of blocks

 

[Lord_Greyscale]

Ah, good to hear that it is allready a clientside operation. I'd been hoping it was. (and with that confirmed, I'd hate to see how bad it would be if it wasn't a clientside thing.)

And that little of an area difference? Huh, maybe it should be made a suggestion.
I'll go and do that.

 

[banks456]

Not if you have the hardware to support it (that's a 1000 radius planet btw)

Please tell me how you did that ? That looks awesome

 

[Keptick]

Please tell me how you did that ? That looks awesome

I increased planet radius in the server config file (located in the starmade folder). This specific planet was 1000r (so 1000m radius). Be careful though, planets are pretty heavy on GPU and CPU usage (for the initial generation), so don't increase the radius to more than your computer can handle.

 

[aRottenKomquat]

I actually like StarMade's planets. They're unique, and they're very appealing to the Minecraft crowd which would be lost if it used Space Engineer-style non-grid worlds. Only things needed are a better terrain generator, performance/rendering improvements so we can have much larger planets, and core size and plate depth which can vary between planets.