Read by Council A Bold Idea - Remove almost all advantages of docked entities and replace their functions

    DrTarDIS

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    I would really like a system that requires a bit more complexity than just having bricks of power reactors after 2mil.
    Mmm things like adding "girth" to your powerlines having a bonus? Something like adding an "efficiency" stat combined with a "max power per sector" so ships have to fight for the zero-point energy with their efficiency vs brute force ratios? Finishing the block-damage penalties to systems and/or making it based on grouping over type? Have penalties carry-over to docked entities too(like decayed status)? no-cap expo growth per grouping but harsher group-number penalties?
     
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    Mods are CONTENT added on top of a base game, not just a value you change. If anything when the base game is totally inconsistent between multiple installations it limits what modders can do;
    It does not. Having a variable exposed in a configfile or not does not change anything for a modder, except it makes it easier for them to alter that variable, if that is part of the mod.[and yes, for unexposed variables, mods that only alter them do count as mods, as they need to interfere with the game's code to change the unexposed variable]
    As for making it harder for modders to balance their mods, they just need to balance it for the default config, and then also expose the balancing relevant variables in a config file. There is pretty much no added work whatsoever, if the mod already has a config file[which most mods, that do require balancing, will most likely have anyways].
     
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    Are you serious? Huge, "useless," surface area like that is great for boosting your armor HP (which is very useful for defense, despite your apparent opinion that shields are the only way to go) and for drawing missiles, turrets, and drones away from your real system masses.
    sup all
    I would like to tell I find armor insanely useless. What armor gives you as "defensive bonus" is ridiculous against decent sized weapons.

    It makes you spend much more block count on defensive effects too (since defensive cost - power and group size - accounts for mass instead of block count: every armor block above hull you place is VERY COSTY compared to any system) and you end with a ship that's overall FUCKING inefficient (or minimalist), so I don't even want any on my system entity anymore. This way my defensive effects block counts are 1/3 of thoses of ships of same size that have armor on systems entity so I am always superior in every aspect (attracting missiles argument is a joke, weapons try to target systems and that's all LOL did you notice anything different? also there's a thousand way to attract missiles without armor at all).

    Also it let you give defensives to armor (very cheap in block count), and use it as an ablative armor that soak SHIELD damage and NEGLECTS ion damage once it's <50% (and armor pool don't fucking matter LOL) it's so OP you guys don't even know. Also you get a free docked reactor slot (docked reactor and armor can be the same entity). Also power reactors ARENT innefficient when you're not using power transfer system. Just use the power ON the said entity (with turrets docked on it, mis/beam via bobby or such) and you're good.

    So yeah Raisinbat's point is totally valid: wanna remove multiple entity ships because buildin them is a pain in the ass and you guys can't? Sure. But then what are you doing with such dumb mechanics to build DECENT interesting ships?

    For me the starmade ability to combine block entities and also (but not only) moving them for doing doors, moving parts, etc. is the ABSOLUTE BEST THING. Their best "feature" ATM (Made me totally "in" the game since old stupid docking mechanics updated) and that goes with EVERYTHING WE CAN DO WITH IT. SO GODDAM WHY does it have to be restricted to hull decorations and small elevators? I'm all for reworking the mechanics but ATM docked ships are the last and best tier of tech so if you guys don't have anything interesting to offer you're just cutting the absolute most interesting part of the game. The "Chronos" ships I do (full docked features) are the biggest pain in the ass I had in videogames building (and they're goddam small compared to some titans everybody seems to do) but they're also the most effective ever seen for their size and their strength pay for all the effort.

    The lag IS definitely a thing when using docked entities. Just like it is a thing when using VERY BIG ships, BIG turrets, carriers, planets or collisions. That's a thing we ALL know and we build/play with that in mind. Right? What could be improved would be cancel collision when stuff are overlapping badly. That happends when docker gets destroyed or if you fuck something while building it. Solution is: system should avoid collision nonsense by stopping colliding the two things together and separate the things smoothly from each other (no calculation anymore between thoses two (groups?) of entities until they're at safe distance). Then the docked reactor/armor stuff is totally fitting combat purposes (but also things like turrets, docked elevators, arms, hangars parts and stuff)

    Lag argument is nonsense since it also concern other things than docked reactors, and can be fixet.
    Learning curve argument is nonsense since they're no learning curve except reading what block does what and not doing the same aesthetic garbage everybody does.

    HerrColonel out! =)

    (tards rate my post funny I'm HerrColonel the clown I have no clues what Im sayin, loosers dont need to pay attention)
     

    Lecic

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    I would like to tell I find armor insanely useless. What armor gives you as "defensive bonus" is ridiculous against decent sized weapons.
    Are you serious? One block of advanced armor can absorb the same damage as 15 shield capacitors, and they don't get weaker as you add more either.

    makes you spend much more block count on defensive effects too (since defensive cost - power and group size - accounts for mass instead of block count: every armor block above hull you place is VERY COSTY compared to any system) and you end with a ship that's overall FUCKING inefficient (or minimalist), so I don't even want any on my system entity anymore. This way my defensive effects block counts are 1/3 of thoses of ships of same size that have armor on systems entity so I am always superior in every aspect (attracting missiles argument is a joke, weapons try to target systems and that's all LOL did you notice anything different? also there's a thousand way to attract missiles without armor at all).
    This paragraph is completely incomprehensible. Something about how armor means you need to take up more blocks with defensive effects since they're mass based? Yeah, that's true. Your point? It's still more effective than shields, mass for mass.

    Also it let you give defensives to armor (very cheap in block count), and use it as an ablative armor that soak SHIELD damage and NEGLECTS ion damage once it's <50% (and armor pool don't fucking matter LOL) it's so OP you guys don't even know. Also you get a free docked reactor slot (docked reactor and armor can be the same entity). Also power reactors ARENT innefficient when you're not using power transfer system. Just use the power ON the said entity (with turrets docked on it, mis/beam via bobby or such) and you're good.
    You think I don't know about docked armor? Lmao. Please, buddy.

    And sure, you can use powered docked armor to power turrets, but what good is that when it doesn't power your main gun?
     
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    Yep but shield actually protect the ship, buddy, armor does NOTHING but reducing a bit of damage your HP pool take when its in the way, and bunch of systems are still destroyed. Shields drop = you're dead that's all. Your bonus is a ton of dead weight, and most of it won't soak any damage at all. ZERO.

    How can powering something else than your main weapon being good you ask? 100k dps missile/beam spam? up to 200k dps turret for one entity worth of power lines isnt good? Stop telling me "dude I know" everything you say is from someone who has no clue
     

    Lecic

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    Yep but shield actually protect the ship, buddy, armor does NOTHING but reducing a bit of damage your HP pool take when its in the way, and bunch of systems are still destroyed. Shields drop = you're dead that's all. Your bonus is a ton of dead weight, and most of it won't soak any damage at all. ZERO.
    I don't think you've ever actually built a proper armor tank.

    How can powering something else than your main weapon being good you ask? 100k dps missile/beam spam? up to 200k dps turret for one entity worth of power lines isnt good? Stop telling me "dude I know" everything you say is from someone who has no clue
    Most of my turrets are self powered from the barrel and the base. I'm not sure what kind of turret needs more than the 4 million power you can get that way.
     

    Lecic

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    you need to tell me why armor tanks aren't a thing.
    Because people don't build them properly and assume they must suck, lmao. That, and people like you are constantly spreading falsehoods claiming armor is useless, making people not experiment with them and discover how great armor tanks are.
     

    Raisinbat

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    I don't think you've ever actually built a proper armor tank.
    It would really cool if you'd show us one of these hypothetical armor tanks, since i've never seen a functional one. In my experience shield (and docked armor) helps you win fights, armor just makes you lose more slowly.

    Are you maybe referring to fleet fights because i have to admit i mostly do 1 on 1 stuff.
     
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    here is my reports on armor experiments: that is shit unless you put 10 layers of it and that makes you too slowish to rely on whatever. Spaced armor or things like that also happend to work in your dreams. People don't build them because its turd
     

    Lecic

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    It would really cool if you'd show us one of these hypothetical armor tanks, since i've never seen a functional one. In my experience shield (and docked armor) helps you win fights, armor just makes you lose more slowly.

    Are you maybe referring to fleet fights because i have to admit i mostly do 1 on 1 stuff.
    NFD Cherokee, CA-122B Heavy Cruiser

    Also, shields "just make you lose more slowly" too.
     
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    Nice to share some builds with us (downloaded and tested in game). Your ship is aestheticly pleasant and really looking like a combat ship but I would classify it more as a RP ship with such nice interior and accessories. GJ building it but as you know I don't like all this advanced armor for the increased mass and think it would be much better perf with basic hull. Also for me 750k DPS is quite poor for 300k mass since I know some guys doing several million DPS turrets that aren't 300k mass BY FAR. But I don't personaly build such beasts, and tend to build the best "small" things possible (around 10-12k mass). Noticed your efforts in different armor layers but I fear that's a very bad thing to do with actual mechanics ;)
     

    Lecic

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    Nice to share some builds with us (downloaded and tested in game). Your ship is aestheticly pleasant and really looking like a combat ship but I would classify it more as a RP ship with such nice interior and accessories. GJ building it but as you know I don't like all this advanced armor for the increased mass and think it would be much better perf with basic hull. Also for me 750k DPS is quite poor for 300k mass since I know some guys doing several million DPS turrets that aren't 300k mass BY FAR. But I don't personaly build such beasts, and tend to build the best "small" things possible (around 10-12k mass). Noticed your efforts in different armor layers but I fear that's a very bad thing to do with actual mechanics ;)
    You know nothing about how armor works. Please stop embarrassing yourself.

    Also, it's not my ship.
     

    Raisinbat

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    NFD Cherokee, CA-122B Heavy Cruiser
    • 0.25 thrust to mass
    • 750k dps
    • turrets easily shot off
    Are you trolling?

    an effective armor tank should at least use inline turrets with turret docks in the ship's center so you can just blast the barrels off.
     

    Lecic

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    • 0.25 thrust to mass
    • 750k dps
    • turrets easily shot off
    Are you trolling?

    an effective armor tank should at least use inline turrets with turret docks in the ship's center so you can just blast the barrels off.
    Did you even try getting through the frontal armor?
     

    Raisinbat

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    Why would i bother the thing is too slow, a smaller ship can just fly behind it, or god forbid, stay at range and pound it with stronger guns where it can't catch it. Hell a similar sized ship with less armor could pull that off. This is a brick. Sure it's going to take a while to eat a brick but whats the problem with it? This is exactly what we're talking about; you need so much backup systems in this ship even with all the docked power it cant dedicate that power to thrust or weapons because its so damn heavy.
     
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    I favor the idea of exploding modules to reduce lag
    the injectors make ships more interesting and versatile , being able to swap a set with another to change its properties

    and think of it this way
    will removing self injectors help tackling lag? .. no not really
    those aren't the problem
    its the internal docking of anything
    so...
    assume the injectors get removed
    you can still have people that fly ships with endless moving parts and rail systems that can still cause lag ..
    for the "moving coolness", "complex turrets" or just for trolling

    and about the cap we want to enforce on players?
    erm yea there is a thing I always check when entering a new server
    I call it *the server rules*
    and if I cant find it, ill ask for it

    but please
    do not kill or remove features and dull down things like that
    I love docked batteries and modules

    they are what I love about starmade

    investigating on how to bypass limitations
    it should be motivated, not patched away
     

    Raisinbat

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    I favor the idea of exploding modules to reduce lag
    the injectors make ships more interesting and versatile , being able to swap a set with another to change its properties

    and think of it this way
    will removing self injectors help tackling lag? .. no not really
    those aren't the problem
    its the internal docking of anything
    so...
    assume the injectors get removed
    you can still have people that fly ships with endless moving parts and rail systems that can still cause lag ..
    for the "moving coolness", "complex turrets" or just for trolling

    and about the cap we want to enforce on players?
    erm yea there is a thing I always check when entering a new server
    I call it *the server rules*
    and if I cant find it, ill ask for it

    but please
    do not kill or remove features and dull down things like that
    I love docked batteries and modules

    they are what I love about starmade

    investigating on how to bypass limitations
    it should be motivated, not patched away
    Best post in this thread
     
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    Even without docked reactors the lag will not go away. I use rail activated modules to power my logic weapons, push drives and chaindrives. I have internal rails that move drones and shuttles to bays. Don't forget the 42 entities docked to the outside (each turret is 2 entities). Are we planning on making all that go away as well?
     
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    I call it *the server rules*
    and if I cant find it, ill ask for it

    but please
    do not kill or remove features and dull down things like that
    I love docked batteries and modules

    they are what I love about starmade
    I absolutely think this way. Also HELLO Lecic I want to tell you that we tried your ARMOR TANK ship there against a <50k (actual) mass WIP competitive ship and with the embedded weapons we were able to overheat the ship in less than 5min while the shield took 1m to put down. Had to turn ship <180° before test (so we did go throught FRONTAL ARMOR) and that took me one minute.