Dynamic Galaxies/Universe

[Blaza612]

The Dynamic Galaxy
The dynamic galaxy is a galaxy which is affected by NPCs creating factions, joining other factions (including a player made one) and even wage war against each-other, creating different ships/structures as the expand and change.

The Travelers
The travelers are NPCs that randomly travel around the galaxy, hoping for a new home. If they find a faction, then there is a chance that they will join it, if they don't find one in a certain amount of time, then they create one. They are also able to join any player made factions.

The Empires
The empires are the factions that are created by the NPCs, the empires traits (aggressiveness, amount they trade, if they see something as sacred, building/ship style, nomadic/sedentary, etc.) these traits can be affected by the people apart of the empire, or be randomized. A player owned faction has these traits chosen by the player at first, however certain traits are less controllable then others (building/ship style, if they see something as sacred). The empires would also have a limit on how many sectors they can naturally expand to, and a limit on how many empires exist within a galaxy.

The Defectors
The defectors are individual NPCs who have disbanded from their empire, and have become another traveler. The empire they have defected from carry over traits with the defector, and can affect the new empire they join/create. Defecting will occur randomly, but at an extremely small chance, this chance will increase if the empire is at war, and will continue to increase if the empire has lost more land/battles than it has one, but the chance to defect will fall with the more land/battles won. Any defectors are enemies to the empire they were previously in, whether they be player or NPC. Defecting is the only way to leave a faction, making players stick with the faction they create.

The Dominator
The dominator is an empire that is significantly superior than all of the other empires, and requires allied empires to destroy, if war arises. The dominator is usually the main threat, and tends to have a higher chance to go to war with another empire, most likely completely destroying the opposing empire. NOTE: The dominator is not called the dominator, it is just a random empire that is significantly stronger than the rest in terms of military, effectively a trait.

The Destruction
The destruction is a galaxy that has been ravaged by war, and will lead NPCs to leave the galaxy, and go to a random new galaxy, to create/join a new empire. This can create an immigrant problem in developed empires, and will cause the defector chance to increase, and the economy to take a hit (everything gets bought out quickly, causing a rapidly high demand)

The Economies
The economies are the economies of the individual empire, which is ultimately controlled all-together by the trading guild. Inflation can become a problem, lack of an item, especially if a commonly used material, will have a high demand and the price in general will go up, until the demand can be met by either the empire's manufacturing, or trading with other empires. The dominator will often have a poor economy, with many things in high demand, but will not affect the dominator's militaristic force as it has already been constructed. Due to this lack of stable economy, the dominator has a high rate of defectors.

The Trading Guild
The trading guild would gain improvements, it would protect freighters from raiders, and would control what is being shipped to where. The trading guild is an ancient trader species, managing to survive solely on the art of peaceful trade. The trading guild can also provide protection to empires, such as guarding miners, convoys, sectors and systems, but for a price.

The Raiders
The raiders are simply random pirate factions, formed from defectors. They primarily attack attack freight shipments and political convoys, and can grow to an enormous size if an empire has a lot of defectors. The dominator has to constantly deal with raiders, as it has a high rate of defecting.

The Police Force
The police force is the Trading Guild also policing the galaxy, as it is a neutral faction. The police force will act similar to EVE Online's Concord, where each individual sector has a security status (ranging from -1.0 to 1.0) which determines how much the Trading Guild patrols/guards the area. Places with high traffic (whether it be NPC or player) in Empire territory have higher security status, as well as the surrounding sectors, the security status gets lower and lower the further from traffic it is. Unlike EVE Online's Concord, the Trading Guild would actually be beatable, where you/NPCs can fight off a fleet and leave victorious, however this lowers the players/NPCs security level, the lower the player/NPCs security level gets, then the more notoriety they get, meaning they could be shot on sight in high sec sectors.

The News
The News is a feedback that details information on things happening all around the galaxy. It will detail things such as wars, local pirate raids, large global pirate raids, problems etc. and relay the information to any monitor that is set to pick up news signals.

The Propaganda
The Propaganda is an Empire putting out propaganda in any form, increasing the chance that passing by travelers will join the Empire. The news can also be put out propaganda, and can increase the defecting rate in a specific country, however, the targeted country of this propaganda will become more and more aggravated, and could possibly lead to war.

So there you have it, my idea to make the Starmade universe much more interesting and immersive, allowing players to feel as though they exist in a proper universe in which they can affect, allowing people to not have to rely on public servers/large groups of friends for these sorts of things. Hope you enjoyed the suggestion! ^_^

 

[Loadout]

I like this, for a couple reasons. The main one being the universe as is, quite stale, this on the other hand would be rather busy. I think it should be an optional game mode though think survival minecraft vs creative minecraft. As an option to players this would be more simulated and definitely feel immersive. Compared to the more creative let's design mode that we currently all resort to 90% of the time.

That said, I think a bit fewer factions would be appropriate. For instance The travelers stay travelers until they run across another faction, at which point they either join or move on. No need to create additional factions as this would just clutter stuff up.

Trading Guild = The dominators? I'm not even sure about this name dominators as it sounds very space rangers 2 to me. Which was a great game, but the premise was AI robots (also called dominators) were killing the galaxy and you had to band together to nerf them. Now it's not exactly an original idea to use a super enemy you have to band together to kill, but perhaps you don't have to kill them? Maybe just outbuy them? or destroy them, or possibly even convert them into defectors via missions or sabotage.

All in all I think you could reduce the number of factions to 3. Travelers/Nomads, Empire(dominators), and Defectors(pirates). This would not include player factions as those would be extra, naturally.

Having said all that, the economy part is actually in-game right now. Dynamic pricing is an option in your config settings. You probably won't notice any major economy shifts with just one person playing though...

 

[Sunkin351]

Very, very in-depth description of how things could work. I like it. Much more than what starmade currently offers. I would love to see this implemented.

 

[EtherEel]

This is certainly good "food-for-thought" -- a place to start the necessary discussion of what to do with the galaxy. Some good ideas. I would hesitate to "fill" the galaxy with factions beyond just under 50%, however -- need room for exploration and the unexpected.

I wish I could give a "Worth Consideration" token...

 

[Blaza612]

I'm not even sure about this name dominators as it sounds very space rangers 2 to me.

When I say dominators, I mean as an actual trait, not a name. :p

That said, I think a bit fewer factions would be appropriate. For instance The travelers stay travelers until they run across another faction, at which point they either join or move on. No need to create additional factions as this would just clutter stuff up.

With the fewer factions, of course it would most likely be preferred to have more than just the dominators as a faction, maybe there can be a limit which is set in the config, to allow players to control what they want to do, whether they wish to the dominators on their own faction, or just exist in this dynamic world. What I was hoping for is that their are multiple factions, all creating this dynamic galaxy, as you might be able to tell.

Some good ideas. I would hesitate to "fill" the galaxy with factions beyond just under 50%, however -- need room for exploration and the unexpected.

Of course there would be a limit on the amount of factions, as previously stated, and also maybe a limit on the amount of sectors that can be grabbed by one faction. If the max amount of factions has been created, then travelers won't create any more factions.

Other than that, thanks for all of the feedback! I've updated the main post with these new additions to it! ^_^

 

[Loadout]

When I say dominators, I mean as an actual trait, not a name. :p

With the fewer factions, of course it would most likely be preferred to have more than just the dominators as a faction, maybe there can be a limit which is set in the config, to allow players to control what they want to do, whether they wish to the dominators on their own faction, or just exist in this dynamic world. What I was hoping for is that their are multiple factions, all creating this dynamic galaxy, as you might be able to tell.



Of course there would be a limit on the amount of factions, as previously stated, and also maybe a limit on the amount of sectors that can be grabbed by one faction. If the max amount of factions has been created, then travelers won't create any more factions.

Traits, Gotcha.

I like faction limits, it forces people to choose a side and stick with it. As is, there's too many 1 person factions floating about, the whole points thing really didn't do anything at all.

That said, I feel just the one would be too limited. In my experiences with faction oriented games, generally two is the happy number, you're either good, or evil, but just pick one. Having a third faction that is un-joinable works, but once players can join it, stuff gets messy.

All in all two is a good number to have. Pick one to join, and then maybe have a sub-divison of some sort. Your parent faction determines major alliances: Empire vs Rebels, and so forth. But you still have your own group, so you're not just Empire or Rebel.

For instance I'm in the (Rebel) Liquid Systems Industries. I fight the empire, and whoever else picks a fight with my faction, but if need be, I fight for the Rebels.

Something like this feels doable, and more simulated than just, "hey we're such and such...wanna play scrabble?":p

 

[Blaza612]

Traits, Gotcha.

I like faction limits, it forces people to choose a side and stick with it. As is, there's too many 1 person factions floating about, the whole points thing really didn't do anything at all.

That said, I feel just the one would be too limited. In my experiences with faction oriented games, generally two is the happy number, you're either good, or evil, but just pick one. Having a third faction that is un-joinable works, but once players can join it, stuff gets messy.

All in all two is a good number to have. Pick one to join, and then maybe have a sub-divison of some sort. Your parent faction determines major alliances: Empire vs Rebels, and so forth. But you still have your own group, so you're not just Empire or Rebel.

For instance I'm in the (Rebel) Liquid Systems Industries. I fight the empire, and whoever else picks a fight with my faction, but if need be, I fight for the Rebels.

Something like this feels doable, and more simulated than just, "hey we're such and such...wanna play scrabble?":p

With the faction thing, I see where you're coming at, but I see that for a more basic team deathmatch, as the factions don't start as an already developed galaxy, the factions develop the galaxy, and whatever the NPCs decide to do in their faction is what creates those rebels and an empire, they galaxy starts off with tiny factions, that grow and become massive and wage war against each-other, as the idea is to have NPCs run these factions.

Your empires vs rebels idea could be another game mode alongside with my idea, where it's quite simply one faction against another, in which the player picks a side, and sticks with it.

With the player limit, there could be a defector system where if you choose to defect, then you're considered an enemy of that faction, and are forced to be on the run and try to make it to a new faction which once joining, if the new faction is not at war with the faction the player is defecting from, then the player will no longer be considered an enemy, otherwise the player continues to be an enemy.

Hopefully this makes more sense, as I'm terrible at explaining things. :p

 

[Loadout]

With the faction thing, I see where you're coming at, but I see that for a more basic team deathmatch, as the factions don't start as an already developed galaxy, the factions develop the galaxy, and whatever the NPCs decide to do in their faction is what creates those rebels and an empire, they galaxy starts off with tiny factions, that grow and become massive and wage war against each-other, as the idea is to have NPCs run these factions.

Your empires vs rebels idea could be another game mode alongside with my idea, where it's quite simply one faction against another, in which the player picks a side, and sticks with it.

With the player limit, there could be a defector system where if you choose to defect, then you're considered an enemy of that faction, and are forced to be on the run and try to make it to a new faction which once joining, if the new faction is not at war with the faction the player is defecting from, then the player will no longer be considered an enemy, otherwise the player continues to be an enemy.

Hopefully this makes more sense, as I'm terrible at explaining things. :p

Makes perfect sense, they would naturally develop members as time goes on and factions themselves would develop as well. It doesn't mean they have to be populated, AIs could run about randomly deciding based on some... numerical factor which faction to join.

I use Empire vs Rebels cause it's an easy thing to imagine, it doesn't have to be that way though.

hmm... problem though... having Npcs constantly running about causes alot of lag(having to load everything near them). Perhaps instead have factions randomly updated/made every so often(simulation tick?), and members spawn near players depending on territories?

This would cause factions to "war" against each other with each side randomly getting bigger or smaller every so often. While in each territory or owned system more of that type would spawn. So in the alpha system Faction A would spawn more often cause they own it, but in the neighboring beta system Faction B is the owner.

Tick happens, alpha system changes ownership from A to B(cause B won the war).

Now B will spawn more often in it's newly owned system.

Wars could be simulation events, if you're in-system where an event is happening, you'll see a larger than normal number of each faction fighting each other.

All in all it could be handled delicately and add in a lot of flavor. But there's an overboard line where if you cross it, stuff gets crazy.

 

[Blaza612]

Makes perfect sense, they would naturally develop members as time goes on and factions themselves would develop as well. It doesn't mean they have to be populated, AIs could run about randomly deciding based on some... numerical factor which faction to join.

I use Empire vs Rebels cause it's an easy thing to imagine, it doesn't have to be that way though.

hmm... problem though... having Npcs constantly running about causes alot of lag(having to load everything near them). Perhaps instead have factions randomly updated/made every so often(simulation tick?), and members spawn near players depending on territories?

This would cause factions to "war" against each other with each side randomly getting bigger or smaller every so often. While in each territory or owned system more of that type would spawn. So in the alpha system Faction A would spawn more often cause they own it, but in the neighboring beta system Faction B is the owner.

Tick happens, alpha system changes ownership from A to B(cause B won the war).

Now B will spawn more often in it's newly owned system.

Wars could be simulation events, if you're in-system where an event is happening, you'll see a larger than normal number of each faction fighting each other.

All in all it could be handled delicately and add in a lot of flavor. But there's an overboard line where if you cross it, stuff gets crazy.

I see where you're coming at with the performance hit solution, however I would like to point out Cities: Skylines citizens. Every single little citizen has their own name, job, current destination, family, home, car, goals etc. and the system used to allow this amount of simulation might be able to work with the Starmade engine, however if it doesn't, then your tick/simulation idea would work perfectly!

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

We really do need some kind of dynamic universe. I'm not sure how I feel about NPCs going off and randomly creating their factions but we really need factions with their own territory fighting and trading with each other.

 

[Loadout]

I see where you're coming at with the performance hit solution, however I would like to point out Cities: Skylines citizens. Every single little citizen has their own name, job, current destination, family, home, car, goals etc. and the system used to allow this amount of simulation might be able to work with the Starmade engine, however if it doesn't, then your tick/simulation idea would work perfectly!

I see what you mean, but think of it this way...

In Cities: Skylines, each citizen has a name, job, destination, family, home, car, goals. All of these except for family are single objects. A car is one thing, a job is one thing, a destination is a three point position ( x, y, z ) , etc.

In Starmade: Each ship is like a person, factions consist of multiple ships, territories, alliances, traits(hostile to neutrals or no?) current wars, current trade positions, events, etc. It's a lot more data to process. Imagine Cities: Skylines had to process every city in the entire continent... Then do it for every faction.

In the end you have to simplify as much as you can to make it as "realistic" as you can. Cause yah, true realism sucks. xP

We really do need some kind of dynamic universe. I'm not sure how I feel about NPCs going off and randomly creating their factions but we really need factions with their own territory fighting and trading with each other.

I think I see what you mean, but a distance based factor may be a way to cut back on the number of factions. 3 per galaxy or so? something along those lines. Otherwise it'd be boring to travel from Galaxy A to Galaxy B only to find the same Npcs are fighting each other there too. That is, if numbers of randomly created factions are the thing you're referring to, or maybe just complexity?

 

[Blaza612]

I see what you mean, but think of it this way...

In Cities: Skylines, each citizen has a name, job, destination, family, home, car, goals. All of these except for family are single objects. A car is one thing, a job is one thing, a destination is a three point position ( x, y, z ) , etc.

In Starmade: Each ship is like a person, factions consist of multiple ships, territories, alliances, traits(hostile to neutrals or no?) current wars, current trade positions, events, etc. It's a lot more data to process. Imagine Cities: Skylines had to process every city in the entire continent... Then do it for every faction.

In the end you have to simplify as much as you can to make it as "realistic" as you can. Cause yah, true realism sucks. xP

I think I see what you mean, but a distance based factor may be a way to cut back on the number of factions. 3 per galaxy or so? something along those lines. Otherwise it'd be boring to travel from Galaxy A to Galaxy B only to find the same Npcs are fighting each other there too. That is, if numbers of randomly created factions are the thing you're referring to, or maybe just complexity?

I see what you mean with the performance problems and such, you're idea for it so far seems like the best way to do that.

With going to different galaxies to find the same factions fighting, the factions are randomized in their traits, and we can make them not go across galaxies. The only things that go across galaxies are immigrants/defectors which can cause new problems in the galaxies they go to. Again I would suggest a customizable limit to the amount of factions, personally I prefer a large variety as it creates plenty of opportunities to explore these new factions, and it would feel like a proper universe, similar to say mass effect, in which each faction is unique and tries to survive in this massive and harsh galaxy.

And yes, true realism sucks. :p

 

[Lidren]

NPC factions and custom factions that actually do things like trade and warfare are already planned. Just sayin.

 

[whooplaah]

I've read plenty of discussions about NPC Factions, but the mechanics mentioned here are unique. I think it would be interesting to implement these as components of NPC faction AI, rather than as the entire AI. That way as the factions change over time they might change from Raiders to Empires to Dominators because they are gathering more resources, then from Dominators to Destruction because of war, then to either Raiders or Defectors.

Very interesting set of variables to consider.

 

[Loadout]

I've read plenty of discussions about NPC Factions, but the mechanics mentioned here are unique. I think it would be interesting to implement these as components of NPC faction AI, rather than as the entire AI. That way as the factions change over time they might change from Raiders to Empires to Dominators because they are gathering more resources, then from Dominators to Destruction because of war, then to either Raiders or Defectors.

Very interesting set of variables to consider.

That is one way of doing it, I was thinking earlier they would be MYSQL variables attached to a faction table. Each faction has it's own table, so this would be totally possible that way without being too heavy on the computing overhead.

Evolution of factions is certainly more entertaining than just static factions, regardless of number. =)

 

[Blaza612]

I've read plenty of discussions about NPC Factions, but the mechanics mentioned here are unique. I think it would be interesting to implement these as components of NPC faction AI, rather than as the entire AI. That way as the factions change over time they might change from Raiders to Empires to Dominators because they are gathering more resources, then from Dominators to Destruction because of war, then to either Raiders or Defectors.

Very interesting set of variables to consider.

When I say defectors, I mean individual NPCs who have defected from an empire, Raiders are formed from defectors and are many individual factions who can only control a sector or 2, and the destruction is something that happens to a galaxy after constant war. Sorry if my original explanation isn't too clear, I'm not very good at explaining things. :p

 

[NeonSturm]

Factions may change.

For example, 1 person could start a World War in past, utilizing hate and fanatism.

• The traits of a faction should depend on previous traits and the members.

Let us assume, that a human mind would make a democratic vote on possible actions.

• Each positive point adds to a number
• Each negative point increase a divisor of that number.
• Reasons which incorporate others decrease the impact of the incorporated reasons.
  
• Only popular (to the leader) actions where success can be expected are thought through by the decision-system.

Then build an idea-trend-progression topology for this faction.

• Just implement entities which progress trends belonging to a faction-wide or personal experience as different nodes.
• Entities are active, if they have a reason to be active (something activates them, similar keywords or structure to other active entities)

 

[whooplaah]

To point out another interesting aspect of a system like this (or maybe it is a pit-fall): If I log out of a server for 2 days, when I come back the NPC factions have changed.

On one hand this makes the universe feel more persistant and real; my direct involvement can altar the spread of NPC factions, but it is in no way necessary.

On the other hand, suddenly my claimed Systems are surrounded by other factions, and it's only a matter of time before I get targeted. My once-allies have changed from an Empire to a Dominator and I'm now just a bug to them.

If NPC factions can be made dynamic then single-player and small factions may have a hard time keeping up, particularly late-game when NPC factions have claimed a lot of territory.

 

[Blaza612]

To point out another interesting aspect of a system like this (or maybe it is a pit-fall): If I log out of a server for 2 days, when I come back the NPC factions have changed.

On one hand this makes the universe feel more persistant and real; my direct involvement can altar the spread of NPC factions, but it is in no way necessary.

On the other hand, suddenly my claimed Systems are surrounded by other factions, and it's only a matter of time before I get targeted. My once-allies have changed from an Empire to a Dominator and I'm now just a bug to them.

If NPC factions can be made dynamic then single-player and small factions may have a hard time keeping up, particularly late-game when NPC factions have claimed a lot of territory.

The player made factions would be gathering more NPCs as well, and the actual simulation starts when the player creates the world. If the NPC factions were to continue growing and such while you are gone, then your own faction would grow as well.

 

[whooplaah]

The player made factions would be gathering more NPCs as well, and the actual simulation starts when the player creates the world. If the NPC factions were to continue growing and such while you are gone, then your own faction would grow as well.

So you envision a system where Player Factions and NPC factions are functionally identical? This would help to address my concern of NPC Factions outpacing players who log-out of servers, but it implies that the player faction is being handed over to NPC's.

I understand you to say that my own faction can have NPC's, and that those NPC's will be empire/dominator/defector in my absence. If I log-out for 2 days and then log back in, I don't know how I'd feel to find my own faction has changed behavior...