Surprise Dev Update

[Lancake]

I will edit my OP to emphasize what I intended to say, because I didn't make it clear enough.

My issues is not with DPS, it is with the minimum size of the smallest possible turret.

I spent a good 4 hours last night trying to refit some smaller ships (50 - 25 meters) with the new turrets. The issue really is with the 3 block swivel stick you need to move the turret from right to left. Mounting the swivel stick out of sight inside the ship is all well and good, but you now need 4 blocks just to mount the turret opposed to one.

I am going to make a post some time soon with pictures showing exactly what I mean as it is a little hard to explain.

Basically turrets on small ships are going to loose functionality if you try to visually keep them the same size.

That being said, I do get the new system and am not opposed to redesigning ships, but I think your going to find a lot more people complaining.

Might not be a bad idea to get out ahead of it and have some turret "workshops" to help people out.

I still don't see the problem though, turrets on small ships, if they have 30, or 50 DPS, it does not matter since they either get blown up instantly (which isn't going to happen anymore if your ship shares shields) or their DPS is just so tiny that the only reason you would want them is to use them as anti missile.
Visually I can keep any new turret exactly as before, but now without a gap between turret dock and the docked entity.

Now the only way to make turrets work in 2 directions (at this moment -> wip) is when your last dock can pivot to the top or bottom. That's because this is an early wip and just doesn't work the other way around yet. So the mother ship would have the offset swivel stick, and that stick would have a horizontal rotate block on top => acting like just a normal turret docking unit.

Left turret is the old system, Right is the new system, they all have the same functionality.

Notice that the new system has no gap. Now it does have that offset rail dock but like i mentioned before, later we could change that to a downward facing rail dock (so basically one of your bottom blocks that is replaced by this one).

 

[Mariux]

Chrome spinners anyone?

http://i.imgur.com/vZdBU2n.gif

 

[timethatswasted]

Now the only way to make turrets work in 2 directions (at this moment -> wip) is when your last dock can pivot to the top or bottom. That's because this is an early wip and just doesn't work the other way around yet. So the mother ship would have the offset swivel stick, and that stick would have a horizontal rotate block on top => acting like just a normal turret docking unit.

If the turret mechanic is still a WIP then I'm going to shut up and not worry about it. I was under the impression that this is more or less how turrets are going to move from now on. Thanks.

 

[ResonKinetic]

MOTHER OF LE MAYMAY XDDXD!!!

also this update is cool

but chairs

just to reiterate (considering the upcoming changes), the "core" shouldn't make a ship; it should be a "computer" that you access from the command chair to control other parts of the ship.

I think if it worked that way, it would flow nicely with the upcoming rails

 

[ghettodexter]

MOTHER OF LE MAYMAY XDDXD!!!

also this update is cool

but chairs

just to reiterate (considering the upcoming changes), the "core" shouldn't make a ship; it should be a "computer" that you access from the command chair to control other parts of the ship.

I think if it worked that way, it would flow nicely with the upcoming rails

I totally agree, by using the core as something other than the center point and/or control of the ship, why not use that as a spawn... and if the core overheats, you spawn back the your bases "undeathonator"... you link to base then your core. Loose your ship? Die and the effects of the yhole inside of the systems core will regenerate you a copy of your old self (minus whatever you had in your pockets) it does consume a ton of power and take time though, for turrets the core will act as only a computer until docked or is the bottom of a chain undocked (ship). As far as ship control you could use the decorative block "personal pc" or something and can ONLY be accessed when seated. Maybe this will help in a way to shape the final game play of actually walking around the ship and using things not build mode.

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

I still don't see the problem though, turrets on small ships, if they have 30, or 50 DPS, it does not matter since they either get blown up instantly (which isn't going to happen anymore if your ship shares shields) or their DPS is just so tiny that the only reason you would want them is to use them as anti missile.
Visually I can keep any new turret exactly as before, but now without a gap between turret dock and the docked entity.

Now the only way to make turrets work in 2 directions (at this moment -> wip) is when your last dock can pivot to the top or bottom. That's because this is an early wip and just doesn't work the other way around yet. So the mother ship would have the offset swivel stick, and that stick would have a horizontal rotate block on top => acting like just a normal turret docking unit.

Left turret is the old system, Right is the new system, they all have the same functionality.

Notice that the new system has no gap. Now it does have that offset rail dock but like i mentioned before, later we could change that to a downward facing rail dock (so basically one of your bottom blocks that is replaced by this one).

This is very much a concern of mine. Creating the smallest possible point defense turret I could come up with in the old system was a 21 block tiny little thing that works, has it's own shields and looks good. Creating the same thing with the new system that must have at least one meter of an open gap so the barrel can turn freely makes a 31 block monster of a mess.

Not having to put shields on will help, not having to put power in it will help but not enough. My current point defense is compact enough that it can go on just about every ship I build. Yes you loose the ugly 1/2 meter gap between the turret and the dock but I gain an ugly full meter gap between the barrel and the base if I want this thing to actually be able to acquire targets not directly in front of it.

• I REALLY think the core should act as a rail dock with the arrow on the bottom facing forward. This way we don't need that extra block, I can't even hide the core well because it's no longer the center of the base.
• It would be helpful as well if the bobby AI could be placed on the base and not the gun. Right now the base is just wasted hull. You can't put anything useful on it beyond shields and power when they transfer. One less block on the gun.
• Faction signature should transfer to the turret so they won't all need their own.

 

[NITRON100]

While this gets me excited for all the endless possibilities, it left me with some questions...
like would every base and swivel part needs its own set of shield generating system, and power???

 

[Inspired2150]

• I REALLY think the core should act as a rail dock with the arrow on the bottom facing forward. This way we don't need that extra block, I can't even hide the core well because it's no longer the center of the base.
• It would be helpful as well if the bobby AI could be placed on the base and not the gun. Right now the base is just wasted hull. You can't put anything useful on it beyond shields and power when they transfer. One less block on the gun.
• Faction signature should transfer to the turret so they won't all need their own.

This gentleman knows what's up. As someone who likes turrets as small as possible without losing functionality, I too find this to be grounds for concern. I think turrets partly inheriting mothership's shield and power is a step in the right direction, however, we currently have too many "useless" blocks on our turrets. I see no instance in which placing a faction block on a turret (including the base) is right. Sure, that way we can protect the turret from the fire of your own turrets should it get shot off, but usually, if your ship loses shields for that scenario to unfold, ship itself is usually destroyed in seconds because all weapons aim directly at the core.

I understand this is how coding works, but wouldn't it make more sense for weapon computers, bobby, faction modules and so on to be placed on the turret base? I find it highly counter-intuitive that so many blocks should be placed on the part of a turret which essentially is a "barrel"?

I understand this may not be the best example, but I think it would be representative in a way that all the main components are located in the part of a turret which is rotating around the Z axis (left/right), while only the barrel itself (along with the firing mechanism) moves around the X axis (up/down).

And as for core acting as a Rail dock, that's pure genius. I think its behaviour should vary based on which block it is docked to.

All in all this is going to be a glorious update, I thought this day would never come, but I am now going to finally enjoy turrets (provided bobby sees some improvements)!

 

[Lecic]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but don't turrets share the faction relation of the thing they're docked to? I'm almost certain that things with no faction affiliation gain the faction of something when they dock to it, and then lose it upon undocking.

 

[Inspired2150]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but don't turrets share the faction relation of the thing they're docked to? I'm almost certain that things with no faction affiliation gain the faction of something when they dock to it, and then lose it upon undocking.

I have just tested it and it doesn't seem to be the case

As you can see in the screenshot below, both the turret components are considered "enemy", whereas the base is considered to be a part of the faction. This is with the faction setting "consider neutrals enemy" enabled.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/r8ald19sppna31r/Скриншот 2015-04-07 00.40.30.png?dl=0

 

[Mered4]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but don't turrets share the faction relation of the thing they're docked to? I'm almost certain that things with no faction affiliation gain the faction of something when they dock to it, and then lose it upon undocking.

I've always had to faction all my turrets individually if I wanted the AMS to work right.

 

[Lecic]

I have just tested it and it doesn't seem to be the case

As you can see in the screenshot below, both the turret components are considered "enemy", whereas the base is considered to be a part of the faction. This is with the faction setting "consider neutrals enemy" enabled.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/r8ald19sppna31r/Скриншот 2015-04-07 00.40.30.png?dl=0

I was referring to the CURRENT docking system, not the new WIP one.

I've always had to faction all my turrets individually if I wanted the AMS to work right.

I definitely remember unfactioned things becoming factioned upon docking, though. Plus, on EE, there's a warning at spawn to not dock your unfactioned ships to the spawn station or they'll become factioned and you won't be able to use them anymore.

 

[Inspired2150]

I was referring to the CURRENT docking system, not the new WIP one.

.

It appears you are right in regards to the current system.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4vjkuzjgntiesry/Скриншот 2015-04-07 00.59.40.png?dl=0

 

[Keptick]

I really really hope that using oversized turrets will come with some major drawbacks. I've heard this new docking system will make it harder for larger turrets to be efficient.

I really don't mind harder, so long as it's possible. I'm just gonna go on a guess here and assume that the bigger turrets are less efficient because they won't get as much shielding from the mothership as smaller turrets would, hence the rumor.

Tbh, I'd much rather see people use two big turrets than 200 mini-turrets (which is what restrictions to turret size would inevitably cause). A lot less lag that way.

 

[Criss]

I really don't mind harder, so long as it's possible. I'm just gonna go on a guess here and assume that the bigger turrets are less efficient because they won't get as much shielding from the mothership as smaller turrets would, hence the rumor.

Tbh, I'd much rather see people use two big turrets than 200 mini-turrets (which is what restrictions to turret size would inevitably cause). A lot less lag that way.

I'm sure there could be ways to limit the efficiency of ships with a lot of small turrets.

 

[Crimson-Artist]

I'm sure there could be ways to limit the efficiency of ships with a lot of small turrets.

I had proposed a system where the amount of shields turrets share depends on the total number of turrets are docked to the mothership. The more turrets you add the less shields they all get. That way smart usage of turrets is rewarded while not hard caping turret sizes/amounts.

 

[Inspired2150]

I had proposed a system where the amount of shields turrets share depends on the total number of turrets are docked to the mothership. The more turrets you add the less shields they all get. That way smart usage of turrets is rewarded while not hard caping turret sizes/amounts.

How would it work with turrets of different size? For instance should you put 1 large turret and 2 flak turrets on a ship, would their shielding split evenly? I think larger turrets should get proportionally more shielding.

 

[Keptick]

I had proposed a system where the amount of shields turrets share depends on the total number of turrets are docked to the mothership. The more turrets you add the less shields they all get. That way smart usage of turrets is rewarded while not hard caping turret sizes/amounts.

Eh, I'd rather have it be diminishing protection based on the turret/ship mass ratio. The bigger the turret compared to the ship the less protection it gets.

Honestly though, I really don't see why you people want to limit turrets so much. Perhaps a a config option, but not as default. I say let the players do what they want without imposing limitations on them.

 

[Crimson-Artist]

How would it work with turrets of different size? For instance should you put 1 large turret and 2 flak turrets on a ship, would their shielding split evenly? I think larger turrets should get proportionally more shielding.

it would split evenly among all of them. and if you eventually add too many you would get like 1% or 0% shield bonus for every turret.

the idea is to empower smaller ships with fewer turrets and discourage titans with unlimited turrets. this system would require that turrets tracking speeds correspond with its mass/dimensions so having turrets of varying sizes and power becomes a thing.

Eh, I'd rather have it be diminishing protection based on the turret/ship mass ratio. The bigger the turret compared to the ship the less protection it gets.

Honestly though, I really don't see why you people want to limit turrets so much. Perhaps a a config option, but not as default. I say let the players do what they want without imposing limitations on them.

like I've said before, this doesn't negatively affect turrets it only benefits them. if you wanted to have a massive ship with 10,000,000 turrets on it you can. its just they won't receive any bonus shielding and have to rely on their on-board capacities for protection.

of course schema did confirm that turrets will now get shield sharing and I'm not sure how my system would work with the new docking mechanics so I'm very much in a wait-and-see mode. I could be completely wrong on this

 

[Inspired2150]

I think turret shielding could be as simple as this:

Let's say a ship is 1000 blocks large.

Let's say the turret is 25 blocks large.

The total amount of blocks in the ship is 1025.

The total ratio of turret blocks to ship blocks is 25/1000.

So if a ship would have a 1 000 000 shields, then the turret would have only 25 000.

That way the bigger the turret, the more shields it would have, but at the same time, it would mean the mothership would have less shields to compensate.

Alternatively, you can look at it from a perspective of Path of Exile. I don't know how many of you have tried the game and for how long, but I like the "reservation" mechanic they implemented. Perhaps that mechanic was used somewhere else, but nothing springs to mind at this moment.

Here's what I think could be used to a great extent. So you want shielding on your turret? You have to redirect it from somewhere else. For instance, you redirect 10% of your total shields to one of your turrets. That would mean your ship only has 90% shields left, but your turet is protected. Do you want your point defence protected? Divert 5% of your shield to accompllish just that. That leaves 85% of shields to the mothership. Ideally, a slider would be great to accomplish this goal. You could even have a flat amount instead of percentages. I think this could leave a player with a choice of whether he wants to keep his turrets, or have his mothership fortified instead. You can still have as many turrets as you want, but it is your decision whether you want them shielded or not.