Regarding the blueprint revamp...

[AeonAnomaly]

My solution is as simple as this:

Allow players to stock shops with ships they've created. This will allow players to buy ships with credits, but someone still had to create the ship with materials, therefore is a direct connection to the economy.

In a fully realized server, I see players who will want to mine. I see players who will want to create. I see players who will want to mass produce ships in ship yards. I see players who will want to complete missions. I see players who will want to salvage parts from bases and players. I see players who will want to pirate. Some players will want to do many of these things. Some players will have no interest in some of them. Give players the option to do what they want.

By allowing players to sell completed ships, you'll actually be improving the economy. You'll be giving a reason and store front to mass ship yards. Sure, they can sell them directly if they are online, but with a storefront all they need to do is stock the shop, and log off, and it will run itself.

This gives players the option to earn money however they see fit, and if they don't want to build and create but buy from respected ship builers, they can.

 

[Mered4]

My solution is as simple as this:

Allow players to stock shops with ships they've created. This will allow players to buy ships with credits, but someone still had to create the ship with materials, therefore is a direct connection to the economy.

In a fully realized server, I see players who will want to mine. I see players who will want to create. I see players who will want to mass produce ships in ship yards. I see players who will want to complete missions. I see players who will want to salvage parts from bases and players. I see players who will want to pirate. Some players will want to do many of these things. Some players will have no interest in some of them. Give players the option to do what they want.

By allowing players to sell completed ships, you'll actually be improving the economy. You'll be giving a reason and store front to mass ship yards. Sure, they can sell them directly if they are online, but with a storefront all they need to do is stock the shop, and log off, and it will run itself.

This gives players the option to earn money however they see fit, and if they don't want to build and create but buy from respected ship builers, they can.

This guy. I like this guy.

:D

 

[Majorfatboy]

Vanhelzing :

You want to talk about rude? What do You think You and a few others are doing every time someone comes on these forums with a concern / opinion about a recent change, and guys like You shout Them into a corner? Every argument You make is basically calling other players idiots and invalidating Their opinions. You are the one putting words in other's mouths, You are the one being rude, You and others like You are the ones causing the arguments. Oh, but since You do it passive-aggressively, the mods give You a free pass.
The mods really should be keeping an eye on guys like You.

And hey! Have a look at the main page!
Every time a perceived issues arises, one that many players agree on, what happens? Within a day or two, based on player feedback, Schema pops in with an update, explaining the how's and why's, corrective actions, or at least a compromise of some sort.
Go read it. now.

You see that?
-Schema is unwilling to back away from the buy with blocks system, This is good, He's sticking to something He believes in.
-He then explained why He feels the way He does. This is also good.
-He also acknowledged that this is a point of contention, and the fact is He can't make everyone happy, as His game embraces multiple play styles.
-He then come's up with a compromise, one that makes resource collecting a bit easier, while still preserving the original challenge He in visions.

Player feedback, dev responses, progress.

Now personally, I still have a few doubts, but these player feedback based changes look good, and I'm willing to give them a try. In fact, I think I'll go restart My universe, play legit for a bit, and see what I can come up with. I think I'm still gonna farm a pirate base with a noobcube, but I'll do some mining and scavenging too. If You really wanna test something, You play all the angles.

Oh, You're not going to pay attention to Me any more? Yeah, just tune out all the feedback You don't like. Good thing You're not the one making the game.
But You go ahead and keep playing the cool guy, not questioning anything that comes down the production pipeline, I'll keep playing the bad guy, and voice My damned opinions if I see fit to.

 

[der_scheme]

Majorfatboy: You seem to fail to understand the difference between a development build and a release version.

To quote myself:

There sometimes are several development versions a day, there's simply no point in discussing every change publicly, as all discussion is potentially void hours later. [...]
As I also tried to point out earlier, public discussions at this point might even be damaging. Other players not as involved as you are—and you are—people that don't know what a dev build is or how to get them, for instance, might misunderstand the entire discussion.
[...]
When the feature is more complete, the UI might be removed again (I am not saying it will be), because the real usage might be intended differently. However, extinguishing bugs early is important, and that GUI allows testing which would only be possible with more features complete.

(Words highlighted grey were added supplementary to better explain my point.)

I believe neither Vanhelzing, nor me, nor anyone else who posted in this thread has anything against people discussing releases. That this system was released the same day that we started voicing our concerns about that discussion was a rather bad move, since players started assuming the wildest things about what may and may not happen. I consider the discussions happening in the news thread rather damaging for the community, people are arguing about a more than incomplete feature. From the point of view of a software developer, that does not make any sense. Of course, on the other hand, releasing it at that stage will help fixing bugs, since the changes under the hood are bigger than a change in default settings and a new GUI for an "old" mechanic would lead to believe.
A change in a development version should never be taken literally. Discussion when it is apparent that features are more stable is welcomed and a good thing, but not one day after development of a new, huge mechanic has started.

 

[Keptick]

I really like the new blueprint item, a person can fill it up and sell it to an other. Problem is that the buyer can just save the blueprint after spawning it and getting in...

 

[Criss]

Vanhelzing :

You want to talk about rude? What do You think You and a few others are doing every time someone comes on these forums with a concern / opinion about a recent change, and guys like You shout Them into a corner? Every argument You make is basically calling other players idiots and invalidating Their opinions. You are the one putting words in other's mouths, You are the one being rude, You and others like You are the ones causing the arguments. Oh, but since You do it passive-aggressively, the mods give You a free pass.
The mods really should be keeping an eye on guys like You.

And hey! Have a look at the main page!
Every time a perceived issues arises, one that many players agree on, what happens? Within a day or two, based on player feedback, Schema pops in with an update, explaining the how's and why's, corrective actions, or at least a compromise of some sort.
Go read it. now.

You see that?
-Schema is unwilling to back away from the buy with blocks system, This is good, He's sticking to something He believes in.
-He then explained why He feels the way He does. This is also good.
-He also acknowledged that this is a point of contention, and the fact is He can't make everyone happy, as His game embraces multiple play styles.
-He then come's up with a compromise, one that makes resource collecting a bit easier, while still preserving the original challenge He in visions.

Player feedback, dev responses, progress.

Now personally, I still have a few doubts, but these player feedback based changes look good, and I'm willing to give them a try. In fact, I think I'll go restart My universe, play legit for a bit, and see what I can come up with. I think I'm still gonna farm a pirate base with a noobcube, but I'll do some mining and scavenging too. If You really wanna test something, You play all the angles.

Oh, You're not going to pay attention to Me any more? Yeah, just tune out all the feedback You don't like. Good thing You're not the one making the game.
But You go ahead and keep playing the cool guy, not questioning anything that comes down the production pipeline, I'll keep playing the bad guy, and voice My damned opinions if I see fit to.

Let's ignore the fact that you decided to be very aggressive about this. I am going to talk about the game solely if you actually care to converse with me.

For the record. All of the changes schema made with the hotfix today I am totally on board with. MRFurb released some information that was pretty revealing. While I agree with the overall attempt at the balancing issues that came up from that, and what schema has done for those issues, I still felt that they only needed tweaking. Not to completely change.

I already stated it my last post that there are certainly things that I question, certainly things that I am against in terms of gameplay mechanics that are in the game or are planned.

 

[Lecic]

I really like the new blueprint item, a person can fill it up and sell it to an other. Problem is that the buyer can just save the blueprint after spawning it and getting in...

That's the risk of selling blueprints. If you sell ships, sell ones that are weaker than the same versions you run in your own fleet.

 

[Malacodor]

That's the risk of selling blueprints. If you sell ships, sell ones that are weaker than the same versions you run in your own fleet.

In the armament industry that's called an 'export version'.

 

[Tomino_sama]

Isn't is awesome there is no credit cap on buying ships now? :D

Before, a ship gets to a point and you can't buy it anymore. This also applies to stations. After loading you can make them decayed, allowing factions to buy stations at the credit cost. Imagine if stations were also using the blueprint system? then any size station can be brought in without breaking the economy.

This is a first step towards the Shipyards, so I am all for this change. Whenever you rip off a band-aid, it will sting. This is temporary.

Here is a copy of my first Blueprint using the new system. I hope you enjoy my hyper balanced warship!

Vanhelzing Dalmont tenk11kamikaza 11001011 BearishMushroom Calbiri GaeasSon legoassassin57 LegoRobot17 GeekNinja lichgrave EmperorVonDoom Raiben

sorry if i forgot you :D this was a long thread

 

[Yetimania]

Then stop using them. It´s not like you are forced to use them. But your ship will probably look inferior to other ones.

But if everybody thinks the same way, or even a substantial minority, then overall quality of ship design will decrease, which means overall enjoyment of the game will decrease. Again, the ships you see most often are other people's ships, for the same reason that you see Covenant Elites more often than the Master Chief in Halo. Everybody loses if ships start looking worse.

I think Buy with Blocks is still the right way to do it, but with some abstraction and tweaking. For example:
--You should be able to click a button to purchase everything in the shop, all at once, that is part of your blueprint design but that you don't have in your inventory. (sort of like how iTunes has a "complete this album" button). This would be limited by the shop's current stock and your budget.
--You shouldn't have to supply the correct colour or shape of block--if your ship has 10,000 blue hulls, 5 red hulls, and 15 yellow ones, you should be able to supple 10,020 grey hulls to get it. Increased colour variety literally can't influence game balance, and is purely cosmetic, so shouldn't be penalized. Similar thoughts for different colours of lights, carved stone, etc. Similarly, hull blocks could stand in for tetras and pentas. I think this alone would cut issues down by 30-50%.
--Shop stock should be dramatically increased. Right now, I have a huge pain finding enough plexdoors for anything, because each shop has 12-40 of them, and I want a couple hundred. Lack of funds, not arbitrary scarcity, should be the limiting factor in what I can buy.

 

[Lecic]

But if everybody thinks the same way, or even a substantial minority, then overall quality of ship design will decrease, which means overall enjoyment of the game will decrease. Again, the ships you see most often are other people's ships, for the same reason that you see Covenant Elites more often than the Master Chief in Halo. Everybody loses if ships start looking worse.

I think Buy with Blocks is still the right way to do it, but with some abstraction and tweaking. For example:
--You should be able to click a button to purchase everything in the shop, all at once, that is part of your blueprint design but that you don't have in your inventory. (sort of like how iTunes has a "complete this album" button). This would be limited by the shop's current stock and your budget.
--You shouldn't have to supply the correct colour or shape of block--if your ship has 10,000 blue hulls, 5 red hulls, and 15 yellow ones, you should be able to supple 10,020 grey hulls to get it. Increased colour variety literally can't influence game balance, and is purely cosmetic, so shouldn't be penalized. Similar thoughts for different colours of lights, carved stone, etc. Similarly, hull blocks could stand in for tetras and pentas. I think this alone would cut issues down by 30-50%.
--Shop stock should be dramatically increased. Right now, I have a huge pain finding enough plexdoors for anything, because each shop has 12-40 of them, and I want a couple hundred. Lack of funds, not arbitrary scarcity, should be the limiting factor in what I can buy.

I agree with all of this, except the color change. Color costs resources, and, especially higher tiers, cost different capsules. For example, a faction might control a lot of systems with rare larimar asteroid belts, so they make a lot of their money and resources trading blue hull. Buying wedges and such with generic hull of the same color should definitely be doable, though.

 

[Ithirahad]

Using the excuse "it will inspire doom cubes" is a weak and lazy excuse at best. Builders are gunna build, doom-cubers are gunna cube regardless of what system is in place.

I know this is an incredibly old (relatively, anyway) post, but people seem to keep using this argument, so:

Perhaps it is so for the existing players, but what about newbies? When they see the crafting and mining systems, will they be encouraged and inspired to build awesome ships with lots of colors, details, and variety, or will they quickly tire of the crafting and mining and just give up, going for the cheapest option?

Because I suspect, more often than not, the latter.

I agree with all of this, except the color change. Color costs resources, and, especially higher tiers, cost different capsules. For example, a faction might control a lot of systems with rare larimar asteroid belts, so they make a lot of their money and resources trading blue hull. Buying wedges and such with generic hull of the same color should definitely be doable, though.

No, for reasons stated above. If anything, hull coloring should be completely free and unlimited... That would go a long way towards fixing the issues here.

 

[Lecic]

I know this is an incredibly old (relatively, anyway) post, but people seem to keep using this argument, so:

Perhaps it is so for the existing players, but what about newbies? When they see the crafting and mining systems, will they be encouraged and inspired to build awesome ships with lots of colors, details, and variety, or will they quickly tire of the crafting and mining and just give up, going for the cheapest option?

Because I suspect, more often than not, the latter.



No, for reasons stated above. If anything, hull coloring should be completely free and unlimited... That would go a long way towards fixing the issues here.

If hull is free and unlimited to recolor, then what's the use of rocks? Nothing. They'd be a decoration item.

I think you should be able to swap between colors at higher tiers. Being locked into a single color once you go past basic grey is not something I like. But I don't think it should be free.

If anything, the shop should charge you something for repainting, at least.

 

[Malacodor]

If hull is free and unlimited to recolor, then what's the use of rocks? Nothing. They'd be a decoration item.

I think you should be able to swap between colors at higher tiers. Being locked into a single color once you go past basic grey is not something I like. But I don't think it should be free.

If anything, the shop should charge you something for repainting, at least.

Recoloring should just cost paint, without being limited to grey basic hull.

 

[Lecic]

Recoloring should just cost paint, without being limited to grey basic hull.

Exactly. That makes perfect sense.

 

[SorrowingButler]

I like mining. I like crafting. I like not having to have random recipes. Thing is, shops still will have blocks to sell, deco and other, so why not just fly around, purchase what you need, and spawn bp's that way? I like the complexity involved in the new system (even if I still haven't found the crystal I need for standard grey armor), and I know I'll be that much more satisfied once I've built a ship. I like the changes to mining and crafting. I never liked having to rely on credits to get ships.

Also, I forget who said it (and I'm too much of a Luddite to figure out the posting stuffs), but I'd be the guy making deco blocks in mass and selling them at a high price so's I could afford those warp thingees and advanced hulls someone else with access to different resources produced.

And I must also agree that hull coloring shouldn't be so troublesome.


Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Joyful Kwanza? BAH, HUMBUG TO YOU ALL!

 

[linwe talion]

Many ppl complain about the new system, as the 2nd law of internet says that mostly the discontent people write in the forums, while the content ones just go on using the product, as everything is fine for them and they haven't got anything to discuss.
So, to break this law a little bit - I totally agree with the new update. It is the only way to make this game to have economics. And even more then that, it is the only way to make PVP worth and mean anything.

But
The hotfix, which was released recently (adding more loot from mining), is just a part of a huge work which is needed to be done to make the economics really work, as the "out" rate was like 5000 times larger, than the "in". I mean, earning resources for building a titan would take a life litereally.

I believe things will become closer to normal in the nearest future, we just need to give the gamedevs some time to find the optimal balance.

Danke, Schema.