Thrust Mechanics Explained

[NeonSturm]

Greetings Citizens!

Linear Thrust, Exponential Power Usag​

1 thrust block = 4.4 ship thrust & 4.4 power used
100 thrust blocks = 1795 ship thrust & 1795 power used
*Rough estimates*​

1 thrust block = 5 ship thrust & 5 power used
100 thrust blocks = 5000 ship thrust and 7500 power used
*Rough example*​

Overall Plan for Movement​

• Direction Thrust Setting

Currently a player need only place thrust blocks anywhere on their ship without concern for orientation or location. They are then granted an amount of thrust that may be applied in any direction. Although simple, this leads to things like capital ships flying maximum speed backwards while firing their primary guns at any ship persuing them.

This assignment process applies to all 6 directions on you ship, forward/back, up/down, left/right, you may assign any amount of your thrust that you like (in percentages) until you have used the entire 100% available in your thrust pool.

Caution should be used when assigning the % of thrust to each direction of your ship, as this same % will apply to the maximum speed (based on the server setting) that you can acheive in the given direction. So that a 50% forward thrust also means a maximum of 50% server max speed in the forward direction.

Rotating your ship might also cost a % from your ships thrust pool, although this should not impact the maximum speed in any of your 6 directions of linear travel. (Essentially rotating your ship would divert potential thrust before it enters your thrust pool.)​

• Momentum Subsystems

1. Defensive Push (self buff)
   • This system will operate on a system/ship ratio, you will gain up to a cap, an increase to your ships thrust amount (acceleration), at the cost of even higher power usage than normal. (This will not affect maximum speed)
2. Defensive Pull (self buff)
   • This system will operate on a system/ship ratio, you will gain up to a cap, an increase to the rotational acceleration of your ship, at the cost of even higher power usage than normal. (This will not affect your maximum rotation speed)
3. Offensive Stop (effects target)
   • This system converts the damage of the weapon it is linked to into momentum to stop the impacted target.
4. Anti-Gravity Module (self buff)
   • This system will allow your ship to hover in the gravity of a planet
5. Thrust Supply/Drain (Very hypothetical idea's currently, they might not be in game)
   • A pair of support weapon systems, they will work similarly to power supply/drain beams, in that they will transfer thrust (instead of power) between your ship and the target. Based on the size of the system, an amount of thrust is given to one ship as a buff for a period of time, and the other ship is given an equivalent nerf to its thrust. This does not remove control of either ship, nor impart any specific momentum of its own, it simply modify's the available thrust of both targets for a period of time.

• FTL

Jump Drives (any ship type, short range)

This system can be installed on any ship, it will require power to be channeled into it for a period of time to charge up (based on system and ship size.) After charging has completed it will instantly jump the ship to a pre-selected sector coordinate. This system however has a limited travel range, so going longer distances may require multiple charge-ups. (The distance we are considering is about 8 sectors distance currently, this may change)​

Gates (Station only, long range)

These gates are installed in pairs, up to 8 Systems apart (1 system = 16 sectors currently) They constantly drain power from their host stations to open and maintain a ring of blocks. Withing this ring, a passageway between the two gates forms allowing instantanious travel between the two stations by flying through the rings Any looped shape may be used, so caution is advise on flying through unknown gates, as you may have parts of your ship lost if the paired gate on the other end is too small to fit you. ​

Hyper-Drives (Capital Ship Systems)

This subsystem, when placed on your ship, will activate a "capital ship" flag in your ships meta data, imparting a permanent debuff to your ship (currently we plan to have it set your ships thrust to 0 and reduce the ships max speed to 0%, based on server max speed.)

However, in exchange for this debuff, your newly minted Capital Ship will have the ability to charge up and activate its new hyperdrive, dropping the ship into a sort of hyperspace. You will have a few seconds to orient your ship, and then the acceleration will kick in, you cant slow down, and you cant stop without dropping from hyperspace (and loosing all of your charge) you can still steer however. You will have a set amount of time to navigate while in hyperspace, after which you will drop out. Charging takes a good deal of power and time (based on ship mass), so this is not something most smaller ships will want to do on their own, instead they are advised to hitch a ride with a carrier, or to use a Gate network.​

​

Let's drop the parts where I agree (quite many) from the quote above and skip to the issues:

Thrust
I really like these changes, (thrusters stay equal %mass equal %thrust) but now peoples will fill each corner with power.

Speed cap
I will probably build fighters with:​

• 2-4% strafe (all other directions)
• 15% strafe upwards
  
• 15% break (50% of acceleration)
• 60% acceleration

(depending on amount of space friction)

But I would prefer if ships have a minimum of "5% of their maximum possible thrust in one direction" added on each direction per default + 95% distributable.
=> 125%
This will avoid that everybody builds ships feeling bad to control and thus players feeling forced to play something not being fun.​

Can we have reducing speed at 200..500% efficiency with an option?

Momentum Subsystems

I would like offensive to affect yourself in opposite direction like if the effect is reflected from a mirror-shield onto you (requiring same time to hit you).
Push&pull&stop should be relative to you, requiring thrust to counter the effect on you.

Defensive stop or anti gravity could have a combination of:​

1. iincreasing a force-negator counter (slowly decreasing over time)
   
2. increasing immune percentage

to allow better customizability
​

Is there a planed function for defensive anti-gravity on stations/planets? maybe increasing gravity? or distributing anti-gravity over ships?

Jump/Hyper-drives

Why do small ships not travel in such a nice way?
And big utilizing jumps or wormholes - fits better to the else stationary feel?
Or give us an option which one should have which animation / travel-speed / travel-distance / charge-time

Can we just give capitals with hyper-drives a way to adjust their position without entering hyperspace?
At least where no interdiction fields are (which may protect stations from capitals only)

Jump-Gates

Have you thought about giving them a hollow-cone? (Increase radius away from the inner-cone tip)
The smaller the other gate is, the closer your gate opens to inner-cone's tip (can be a half-cone without tip)

Or about sending a scout-drone though exploring the other side?​

Yeah, I kinda see these being redundant with the current pull/push/stop offensive effects and the push defensive effect. The only use I can see them having is similar to external reactors, where you can sneak past the regular scaling limitations by having docked external sources beaming you extra thrust, making your massive ship much more agile at a much lower price. Not sure if that's something that you want in this thrust system, though.

I agree. All things should have possible:

1. effect_duration
   • =burst_delay = continuous
   • <burst_delay = bursts
   • >burst_delay = increasing by 100% effect_strength over burst_delay to max of burst_duration/delay and decreasing afterwards by 100% effect_strength per burst_duration
2. burst_delay
3. burst_duration (something like a heat-bar)
4. burst_duration_regenerationTime (can be longer than activation_coolDown, especially if it is 0)
5. activation_coolDown (0 = toggle auto-repeat on/off)

Passive push pulses could be something that you activate only from time to time, not constantly like now.

 

[Criss]

since there seems to be some confusion about the capital ships: Basically normal ships will have certain amounts of points to be spent on capital ship systems. You consume those by placing capital ship systems, and they will gradually influence your ability to move.

Basically stuff like on-ship factories will have a very low value so you can place a fair amount while still being able to move around.

However a hyperdrive (not the one you put on ships for an 8 sec jump) will be very expensive. Capital ships with those systems are basically moving stations without some bonuses stations get. Their advantage is basically that other than stations, they can move around with the hyper drive or the normal jump drives, while stations are, well, stationary.

I hope the hyperdrive does not limit the ship to 0% thrust. I feel like that is limiting in terms of overall gameplay. Even if it only moved 1% of the server speed with a hyperdrive installed, I would be satisfied. Then I can make precision movements. I can take that ship into drydock if I want. If hyperdrive debuffs the capital ship to 0% then there is no reason to even build engines. Not very spaceship-like. Maybe there can be a way to include both? Perhaps once you get maximum hyperdrive power it would render the ship immobile? Until then each aditional hyperdrive unit can decrease the top speed a lot. That way we can get both ends of that mechanic. On one end we have capital ships that can still move, but cannot stay in hyperspace as long. On the other end we have capital ships that jump the furthest but cannot thrust at all. That may sound like a repeat of what you said. I only say this because it sounded like Hyperdrives were going to completely debuff the ship to 0% no matter how many were installed.

 

[NeonSturm]

I like it - basically

thrust*=(1-x) ^ (0..100)%hyper-drive * (1- (0..1)hyper-drive *y)"​

where x,y = 0..1 (0=no penalty, 1=full penalty).

 

[Ithirahad]

Just a random thought:
Jump drives should really just be fixed-route hyperdrives. Plain-old teleportation is boring.

 

[ltmauve]

Okayy....... lot to think about here.

Thrust changes: First, we should be able to allocate points separately to max speed and acceleration (low top speed, high acceleration for fighters that you want changing direction rapidly, low acceleration, high top speed for larger ships that you want to travel long distances with but don't want hyperdrive.)
Also, I do want to be able to conveniently switch between different thrust settings (A combat mode with high acceleration in all directions, a docking mode with a lot of unallocated points. Imagine trying to dock when a single button press sends you slamming into the wall... and collision damage is on.) Someone up the thread mentioned being able to switch too quickly being unfair in combat, which I agree with. Switching would need a cooldown to prevent abuse.

FTL:
Hyperdrive: Alright, superfast travel, uses up flagship points that reduce the speed of the ship... wait, factories use fewer flagship points than hyperdrives? Hyperdrives shouldn't be as punished as a huge factory. Now, having a small "machine shop" (one capsule, micro, and macro for a few blocks you don't have) I understand not wanting to punish. But having a large factory is for stations, or mobile stations. Not something you take into combat, and while your flagship isn't going to be doing barrel rolls it still needs to move.

Gates: Why? Mass based is much easier, much easier to diagnose, much less likely to cause lag in either a ship colliding with a gate, or in stripping away blocks when you wind up going through a gate that is too small. Also, it doesn't require tracing a path out through all the gate blocks. Cosmetic gates are still possible, and will likely look better if they don't have to worry about fitting in a closed loop. Imagine partial rings for a gate. Can't do that with this system. Also, will we be able to fit multiple gates in a single sector?

Microjump: Okay, sounds cool.

 

[Crimson-Artist]

Ok im alittle confused about the all complaints about Hyperspace. Are you guys mad that we won't be able to use it while retreating? or is there just confusing on how it works?

 

[NeonSturm]

Please delete this post.

I am going to make it a thread with examples showing the advantages as others seem to be unable to create a picture of generated slipstream-lane maps between stars in their head.

And thus forced to fail understanding the idea.

 

[Ithirahad]

Nobody's going to like forced preset directions for smaller ship FTL... Huge natural wormholes between systems might make for a really nice fourth form of FTL, but I'd rather have a "Hyperjump" drive for smaller ships, that uses the same alternate dimension as capital-style hyperdrives but sets a fixed course through hyperspace prior to a jump, which just seems a lot less annoying (And Star Wars and Star Trek fans would appreciate it!).

 

[Criss]

Okayy....... lot to think about here.

Thrust changes: First, we should be able to allocate points separately to max speed and acceleration (low top speed, high acceleration for fighters that you want changing direction rapidly, low acceleration, high top speed for larger ships that you want to travel long distances with but don't want hyperdrive.)
Also, I do want to be able to conveniently switch between different thrust settings (A combat mode with high acceleration in all directions, a docking mode with a lot of unallocated points. Imagine trying to dock when a single button press sends you slamming into the wall... and collision damage is on.) Someone up the thread mentioned being able to switch too quickly being unfair in combat, which I agree with. Switching would need a cooldown to prevent abuse.

FTL:
Hyperdrive: Alright, superfast travel, uses up flagship points that reduce the speed of the ship... wait, factories use fewer flagship points than hyperdrives? Hyperdrives shouldn't be as punished as a huge factory. Now, having a small "machine shop" (one capsule, micro, and macro for a few blocks you don't have) I understand not wanting to punish. But having a large factory is for stations, or mobile stations. Not something you take into combat, and while your flagship isn't going to be doing barrel rolls it still needs to move.

Gates: Why? Mass based is much easier, much easier to diagnose, much less likely to cause lag in either a ship colliding with a gate, or in stripping away blocks when you wind up going through a gate that is too small. Also, it doesn't require tracing a path out through all the gate blocks. Cosmetic gates are still possible, and will likely look better if they don't have to worry about fitting in a closed loop. Imagine partial rings for a gate. Can't do that with this system. Also, will we be able to fit multiple gates in a single sector?

Microjump: Okay, sounds cool.

The whole idea of a gate is that you kinda have to fit in order to use it without shearing off your ship. The mass should just increase charge or power requirements.

 

[NeonSturm]

3 dislikes...

Somewhere else I suggested a config option what FTL is available to what and I would really like this added (is used in Andromeda) - devs stated they want FTL from ski-fi films be possible.

Why don't you like "space streets"?
IRL we have territory (hills, rivers, oceans, seas) and that creates strategic points and trade routes - make placement and logistics interesting.

It could be a version of FTL that requires less % of space of your ship dedicated to power+FTL, used on some servers or by some aliens if players don't want it.

 

[Ithirahad]

I like certain limitations (Say, interphasic nebulae that block hyperspace travel through a certain sector by forcibly dropping you out of hyperspace when you hit them - basically a natural interdiction field) but as a base mechanic I prefer the ability to warp directly to a given destination within your range.

However, a system like that as a fourth form of FTL, as I said (Star Trek: Voyager had something similar with the Vaadwaur's Underspace Corridor network) would be freaking amazing. I imagine it not as a universal thing that every system has, but as a set of networks that cover certain groups of adjacent systems, whereas larger areas around those may have no slipstreams at all, or perhaps just one or two bridging between arbitrary, possibly extremely faraway systems. (Somewhat like the Wormhole in ST: DS9)

 

[Crimson-Artist]

3 dislikes...

Somewhere else I suggested a config option what FTL is available to what and I would really like this added (is used in Andromeda) - devs stated they want FTL from ski-fi films be possible.

Why don't you like "space streets"?
IRL we have territory (hills, rivers, oceans, seas) and that creates strategic points and trade routes - make placement and logistics interesting.

It could be a version of FTL that requires less % of space of your ship dedicated to power+FTL, used on some servers or by some aliens if players don't want it.

I had the idea of tying FTL with sensors to form a new game play element: Cartography. Basically Hyperspace would work the way light speed works in star wars.

HAN: Traveling through hyperspace isn't like dusting crops, boy!
Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or
bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick,
wouldn't it?

thats where sensors come in. They would be a new effect computer with the defensive effect being it generates a pulse around your ship scanning the whole sector and logging it down in your map. with an upgrade to the navigation tab with the push of a button we could record trade lane waypoints that allow players to safely travel through hyperspace without coming out inside a planet or into a star.

 

[der_scheme]

Let me just state for the record that I'm opposed to an explicit limit to max speed. It should be implicitly determined by insufficient thrust to overcome the increasing dampening effect (and the server's speed limit, of course).

Now to another topic:

Capital ships unable to move?
At first I was like:
But then:

It totally makes sense. Sorry if I'm stating the obvious here, but…
As a faction at war you basically have three choices for deploying ships now:

1. Maintain an infrastructure of stargates for large fleet deployment. The challenge is obvious: You would have to defend this infrastructure, your enemy might disrupt it at critical points, leaving you the other two choices. It also makes your attack vectors more predictable.
2. Use the jump drive. Pretty much the same as it is now, and very tedious to get a large fleet to your target. Most reliable way of attacking.
3. Use carriers. Ideal for deployment of many smaller and medium sized ships. You can strike instantly over long distances, but you also have the objective of protecting the sitting duck during battle, otherwise you lose the means to get away.

Although I'm not sure if rendering capitals a space stations isn't a little harsh, I like it. It hopefully will add more tactics to the game, as well as making battles more "realistic" (as in: like in the franchise of our choice).

 

[Daveorock]

Capital ships unable to move?
At first I was like:
But then:

Actually, capital ships unable to move would be an extreme nuisance. Imagine warping in with the fleet to a huge firefight, but alas, what's between you and the enemy capital you planned on taking down with your weapons? A planet. And in order to move the 100m to the side to see around it, you have to take who knows how long to charge up your hyperdrive, then full on warp for .001 seconds just to see around the planet. There are other scenarios too: for docking, either for protection or "dock it or lose it" server policies, you would have to drop out of warp with the precision equivalent of throwing a needle across a basketball court and having it land perfectly on a thread of string so that it threads itself. Additionally, what about interdiction zones (if they become a thing)? Get caught in one and you're stuck until whatever is creating it is destroyed, but if it's a natural zone, say, a nebula (if that becomes a thing), then GG. It would encourage people towing capitals with pull effect and would encourage them to rotate into another ship to gain momentum. IRL you could have people start throwing refrigerators out of airlocks to give you momentum, even if you don't have engines. I agree that capitals' speed needs nerfing, but they need to move somewhat to prevent problems like those I described.

 

[NeonSturm]

Both true. Maybe passive push effects should then be used.

They should get a heat-bar which decreases while off-line and increases while online so that you can't use them permanently even if you have the power for it.
They were originally meant to escape planets (but would be nice for escaping interdiction fields too).

Passive push: high power-drain, high thrust, low duration, medium-long cooldown (1 minute after 15 seconds usage maybe?)

 

[Zeno9141]

Actually, capital ships unable to move would be an extreme nuisance. Imagine warping in with the fleet to a huge firefight, but alas, what's between you and the enemy capital you planned on taking down with your weapons? A planet. And in order to move the 100m to the side to see around it, you have to take who knows how long to charge up your hyperdrive, then full on warp for .001 seconds just to see around the planet. There are other scenarios too: for docking, either for protection or "dock it or lose it" server policies, you would have to drop out of warp with the precision equivalent of throwing a needle across a basketball court and having it land perfectly on a thread of string so that it threads itself. Additionally, what about interdiction zones (if they become a thing)? Get caught in one and you're stuck until whatever is creating it is destroyed, but if it's a natural zone, say, a nebula (if that becomes a thing), then GG. It would encourage people towing capitals with pull effect and would encourage them to rotate into another ship to gain momentum. IRL you could have people start throwing refrigerators out of airlocks to give you momentum, even if you don't have engines. I agree that capitals' speed needs nerfing, but they need to move somewhat to prevent problems like those I described.

Tugs. We need tugs.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

Passive push effects are going to be changed. As for tugs, we already have them (build special ships with push/pull weapons).

 

[takethispie]

capital ship are already hard to move around , as a titan/planetoid builder I know what im talking about x)
for example one of my ship takes about 2 minutes to do a 180° , and I think max speed is not the problem but acceleration , it would be better that, at a certain mass, even if you add thruster your acceleration will still be the same.

anyway as schema said your ship will still be able to move, but slower the more you add capital ships systems

 

[Aridhol]

Actually, capital ships unable to move would be an extreme nuisance. Imagine warping in with the fleet to a huge firefight, but alas, what's between you and the enemy capital you planned on taking down with your weapons? A planet. And in order to move the 100m to the side to see around it, you have to take who knows how long to charge up your hyperdrive, then full on warp for .001 seconds just to see around the planet. There are other scenarios too: for docking, either for protection or "dock it or lose it" server policies, you would have to drop out of warp with the precision equivalent of throwing a needle across a basketball court and having it land perfectly on a thread of string so that it threads itself. Additionally, what about interdiction zones (if they become a thing)? Get caught in one and you're stuck until whatever is creating it is destroyed, but if it's a natural zone, say, a nebula (if that becomes a thing), then GG. It would encourage people towing capitals with pull effect and would encourage them to rotate into another ship to gain momentum. IRL you could have people start throwing refrigerators out of airlocks to give you momentum, even if you don't have engines. I agree that capitals' speed needs nerfing, but they need to move somewhat to prevent problems like those I described.

That is why you calculate your approach first, as a poor approach can easily make the difference between victory and defeat.. Ask anyone with military experience, this is true, so why not have it in game?

 

[Daveorock]

That is why you calculate your approach first, as a poor approach can easily make the difference between victory and defeat.. Ask anyone with military experience, this is true, so why not have it in game?

Of course you could do that, but the problem is that you would have to do that with extreme precision, and have a detailed foreknowledge of exactly where everything is in a sector that could be multiple starsystems away. For example one, you'd have to know where the enemy ship is, where every obstacle is, what direction is what (because everything is relative in space), exactly how far away things are, and you can't mess up and overestimate else you need to stop and turn around and recharge. For the docking one, you'd have to get there on the correct side of the dock and get your numbers down right to <100 precision which would be difficult being unable to select anything but sectors which are very far away (which are only waypoints, and you won't know where stuff is in the sector, which could be many kilometers across), and would require multiple extremely short warps just to fix yourself/get closer. As for the interdiction fields, you could avoid those if you knew where all of them are (which could be changing constantly with player-made ones), but what if you're exploring uncharted space? Seems silly that a cap ship should have to wait for help like a little baby stuck in a crib if it runs into one.

Even ballistic missiles need to actively track themselves and their target, which is the whole reason GPS was invented. Nobody in the military would fire an intercontinental missile without any sort of correction system on it, that's asking for trouble (especially when aiming for a small target). Cap ships need to be able to make minor corrections too, because nobody wants to fly into a shipyard with only warp, which could end very badly with collision damage.