A Solution To Flying Spaghetti Monsters

[Jojomo]

No, it doesn't matter at all. Scaling is still far easier in the empty space ship. The spaghetti ship can either simply use single block connections between shield groups or have multiple bubbles. Efficiency falloff? Doesn't matter, the ship only needs shields to protect it in case of an extremely lucky shot. And even if the shields DO go down, then what? You're still left with the massive advantage of being really hard to hit and any hits do a pathetic amount of damage.

It looks like you may have forgotten your own point. It was: "The shield bubble radius is seemingly based on reactor size, and that's far easier to scale up in a ship that's mostly space than a restricting hull."

As shields aren't based on reactors, and as spaghetti strand lengths scale faster than shield bubble diameters, your point is wrong: scaling up shields on a spaghetti ship means only part of your ship will be shielded. So to be fully shielded you either have to move away from spaghetti structure, or spread your shields thin.

That is inherently a disadvantage compared to being able to pool shields from blocks anywhere into a large shield that covers your whole ship.

Whether the disadvantage vs spaghetti is significant is another matter though - if people familiar with spaghetti say the disadvantage is insignificant I for one am perfectly comfortable not arguing otherwise.

A side point related to your post: the new shield system mechanics apparently mean (I haven't seen this confirmed) that shields centred in another bubble are inactive, so using "single block connections between shield groups" isn't going to be useful.

 

[Jarraff]

I want you to think for a second about how much this punishes small ships and many ships with curves and other such features to them that will have many blocks "not counting." This would be extremely frustrating and confusing to a new player, and a pain in the ass for experienced ones.

Some sort of "structural integrity" system could possibly work, but this is certainly not the way to do it.

I don't know if a sum of the connections would be a good idea but it could easily remove spaghetti ships from the game. Any normal ship is going to have an average number of connections around 5 per block where as a spaghetti ship would only have 2 per block.

Consider the basic shapes you can make with 0-6 connections.

0 connections or all blocks floating in space.
1 connection would be pairs of blocks floating in space
2 connections would make single block lines
3 connections make lines 2 blocks thick
4 connections you can make planes or lines 4 blocks thick
at 5 and 6 connections you start to make a networked system of blocks

This might only be applied to ships with 1000 or more blocks if you were worried about small ships.

With this sort of system you could still make a spaghetti ship with strands 9-16 blocks thick. If they were still effective at those dimensions than this would indeed be pointless.

 

[Calhoun]

It looks like you may have forgotten your own point. It was: "The shield bubble radius is seemingly based on reactor size, and that's far easier to scale up in a ship that's mostly space than a restricting hull."

As shields aren't based on reactors, and as spaghetti strand lengths scale faster than shield bubble diameters, your point is wrong: scaling up shields on a spaghetti ship means only part of your ship will be shielded. So to be fully shielded you either have to move away from spaghetti structure, or spread your shields thin.

That is inherently a disadvantage compared to being able to pool shields from blocks anywhere into a large shield that covers your whole ship.

Whether the disadvantage vs spaghetti is significant is another matter though - if people familiar with spaghetti say the disadvantage is insignificant I for one am perfectly comfortable not arguing otherwise.

A side point related to your post: the new shield system mechanics apparently mean (I haven't seen this confirmed) that shields centred in another bubble are inactive, so using "single block connections between shield groups" isn't going to be useful.

No, it doesn't matter at all. Scaling is still far easier in the empty space ship. The spaghetti ship can either simply use single block connections between shield groups or have multiple bubbles. Efficiency falloff? Doesn't matter, the ship only needs shields to protect it in case of an extremely lucky shot. And even if the shields DO go down, then what? You're still left with the massive advantage of being really hard to hit and any hits do a pathetic amount of damage.

Replace reactors with shields groups, and the point is correct.

 

[Jojomo]

Replace reactors with shields groups, and the point is correct.

You mean change it and it becomes correct...

Anyway, it's still wrong for spaghetti: as I've said multiple times a spaghetti strand length increases faster than the shield bubble diameter it creates. So you cannot simply scale up your shields for spaghetti. You either build parts that aren't spaghetti, use many weak shields, or leave parts unshielded.

 

[Calhoun]

You mean change it and it becomes correct...

Anyway, it's still wrong for spaghetti: as I've said multiple times a spaghetti strand length increases faster than the shield bubble diameter it creates. So you cannot simply scale up your shields for spaghetti. You either build parts that aren't spaghetti, use many weak shields, or leave parts unshielded.

Change the wording, yes. The point was that it's easier to scale with a spaghetti ship.

As for your claims that scaling won't work, have you tested it? Because I have, and it was perfectly fine.

 

[Jojomo]

Change the wording, yes. The point was that it's easier to scale with a spaghetti ship.

As for your claims that scaling won't work, have you tested it? Because I have, and it was perfectly fine.

If you've been reading the "New power DEV thread" you'd have seen an image from my testing.

If you make a spaghetti strand shield group it soon becomes too long to be contained in the range bubble it generates.

So not only is scaling shields on spaghetti not easier with the new system, it's actually become harder: you must either build some non spaghetti structure, or use multiple weaker shields, or leave some of your ship unshielded.

 

[Calhoun]

If you've been reading the "New power DEV thread" you'd have seen an image from my testing.

If you make a spaghetti strand shield group it soon becomes too long to be contained in the range bubble it generates.

So not only is scaling shields on spaghetti not easier with the new system, it's actually become harder: you must either build some non spaghetti structure, or use multiple weaker shields, or leave some of your ship unshielded.

Or

you

add

single

block

connections

between

lines

 

[Jojomo]

Or

you

add

single

block

connections

between

lines

First, that isn't scaling up.

Second, as I've already pointed out, a group shielded inside another bubble is inactive. And even if the second group centroid is outside the first bubble, where bubbles overlap only one has any effect.

So no, you can't scale shields on spaghetti like that.

 

[Calhoun]

First, that isn't scaling up.

Second, as I've already pointed out, a group shielded inside another bubble is inactive. And even if the second group centroid is outside the first bubble, where bubbles overlap only one has any effect.

So no, you can't scale shields on spaghetti like that.

Facepalm

 

[Jojomo]

Facepalm

Feel free to prove your point any time you like, or leave things here where your claims about scaling are unsubstantiated.

 

[Calhoun]

Feel free to prove your point any time you like, or leave things here where your claims about scaling are unsubstantiated.

The spaghetti ship can either simply use single block connections between shield groups or have multiple bubbles. Efficiency falloff? Doesn't matter, the ship only needs shields to protect it in case of an extremely lucky shot. And even if the shields DO go down, then what? You're still left with the massive advantage of being really hard to hit and any hits do a pathetic amount of damage.

The 'scaling' is the scaling of the size of the bubble. Again, far easier to increase when you have a bunch of empty space then when you don't.

 

[Jojomo]

This is getting silly Calhoun. If you've realised your original position is wrong, just say so instead of doing this dance.

Your original input in this back-and-forth was when I said the new shields would make shielding spaghetti difficult, you disagreed, here:

The new shielding system means spaghetti will struggle to shield itself....

Why? The shield bubble radius is seemingly based on reactor size, and that's far easier to scale up in a ship that's mostly space than a restricting hull.

You were wrong, and that hasn't changed. Shielding spaghetti with the new shield system means one of three options:
- building some non spaghetti structure
- using multiple weaker shields
- leaving some of the ship unshielded

If you can demonstrate otherwise, please do.

 

[Az14el]

so the shield radius is kinda huge volume wise, any DRs from which we've already been over is a more significant restriction to aesthetic builds than dispersed ones in the first place, and you don't have to use one single line stretching beyond it (Jojomos test), there are an infinitude of other possible dims you could use to fit into a spherical shape that don't have to be spheres or boxes, just interconnected.

It doesn't "fix" these ships, it increases their logistical challenge to build & maintain which is honestly enough for me, but others i can't say, only that they most definitely can if they wanted.

 

[Jojomo]

so the shield radius is kinda huge volume wise, any DRs from which we've already been over is a more significant restriction to aesthetic builds than dispersed ones in the first place, and you don't have to use one single line stretching beyond it (Jojomos test), there are an infinitude of other possible dims you could use to fit into a spherical shape that don't have to be spheres or boxes, just interconnected.

Yes, you can make your structure less spaghetti-like.

It doesn't "fix" these ships, it increases their logistical challenge to build & maintain which is honestly enough for me, but others i can't say, only that they most definitely can if they wanted.

Totally agree: it doesn't solve spaghetti.

 

[Calhoun]

This is getting silly Jojomo. As you've said before, you have zero idea about building spaghetti ships. I was around the people who first came up with and built the things. I was mistaken when I said shields were based on reactors, but the point of that statement was that i's easier to scale when you have empty space.

You are wrong with your assertion that spaghetti ships cannot be properly shielded. I recommend either trying things before dismissing them or at least listening to the people that do.

 

[Jojomo]

This is getting silly Jojomo. As you've said before, you have zero idea about building spaghetti ships. I was around the people who first came up with and built the things. I was mistaken when I said shields were based on reactors, but the point of that statement was that i's easier to scale when you have empty space.

You are wrong with your assertion that spaghetti ships cannot be properly shielded. I recommend either trying things before dismissing them or at least listening to the people that do.

I'm all ears. Just demonstrate what's incorrect here:

Shielding spaghetti with the new shield system means one of three options:
- building some non spaghetti structure
- using multiple weaker shields (relative to the old system)
- leaving some of the ship unshielded

 

[Dire Venom]

I'm all ears. Just demonstrate what's incorrect here:

Shielding spaghetti with the new shield system means one of three options:
- building some non spaghetti structure
- using multiple weaker shields (relative to the old system)
- leaving some of the ship unshielded

The devs have also stated that they do not want large number of shield bubbles on a ship, and thus are likely to introduce something to prevent it. As such Sphaghettis ships will likely not beable to shield the whole ship well, or leave bits exposed.

 

[Calhoun]

I'm all ears. Just demonstrate what's incorrect here:

Shielding spaghetti with the new shield system means one of three options:
- building some non spaghetti structure
- using multiple weaker shields (relative to the old system)
- leaving some of the ship unshielded

Go and try it yourself. Even better, go talk to kulbolen about it.

 

[Jojomo]

Go and try it yourself. Even better, go talk to kulbolen about it.

Been there, done that. If you think it's possible with the new shield mechanics to avoid all of the following the following when shielding spaghetti please share with the thread.

- building some non spaghetti structure
- using multiple weaker shields (relative to the old system)
- leaving some of the ship unshielded

 

[MacMartel]

make the system blocks exposed to space becomes cosmetic only