Starmade interest through the years

[Nauvran]

Even with high spec pcs this game doesn't work as soon as a 50m long ship battles another. ^^ That doesn't mean SE isn't a cool game. But I don't play it very often.

it works fine? Sounds like you have some issues with your computer and your game, or the server you play on.

 

[silverfoe]

There is only 1 thing standard for all players at this game an is the lack of performance of this game at combat pve or pvp in some situations.[Real big explanation.]




I love AD Hominens at the afternon.[Java = shit for perfomance pourposes, only works well at multiplataform stuff.]




SE is required a better minimun requeriments than SM, if you have the medium specs for that game you are not going to have those issues.

To be fair, in that video, the 2km ship has way less "blocks" than a typical starmade ship of 2km. Whether or not that would make a big difference is a different story because the objects have more polygons in SE.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

To be fair, in that video, the 2km ship has way less "blocks" than a typical starmade ship of 2km. Whether or not that would make a big difference is a different story because the objects have more polygons in SE.

To be even more fair, Keen Software House; the creators of space engineers have their own custom-built game engine and +/-50 employees.

Given their comparison with similar titles, I think StarMade has done very well (development-wise) for a small indie game. To be honest, I think that's part of its charm. Let's just hope they can pull off these power and universe updates in such a way that doesn't make everyone scream bloody murder.

 

[Nauvran]

StarMade CAN NOT MANAGE PROPERLY a 2km entity regardless of number of blocks of that entity.[Vanilla configs, most probably same problems on custom configs. ]

But "to be fair" Can you show to us a "typical" 2km ship doing things at Starmade? [Or that is another fallacy to lick feets?]

But back on topic is totally amazing how every negative feedback ends on a "brainless lick of feet" to Schine [That can be worst for the healthy´s game than a brainless negative feedback.], more than a smart answer.

Testing an old warpgate of mine with the Charon worked fine as far as I remember and this was 2 years ago, we also had another titan in the same sector within render distance. FPS was still decent enough to play as far as I recall.
Unless you build as a very stupid person then even a titan shouldnt lag too much. It's not just the amount of blocks that lags the game, it's more the amount of entities. See pic 2, that station has 2 rings on a rotor, each ring has 4 turret platforms, each platform has 2 large turrets (thats 4 extra entities) and 6 PD turrets (thats 12 more entities). It brings the build up to 26 entities that are all going to move and check for collisions. Now this lags, a lot, and it's far from the same size as the Charon or any other titans. So please, block count is not what causes the worst amount of lag, it can be bad yes but docked entities are much worse.

Spoiler: This good enough?

Spoiler: Picture 2

 

[Nauvran]

Nauvran Unless my memory is totally wrong the Charon is a bit more large than 1 km not a 2 km entity. [Is really enjoyable how a forum user can affirm that starmade have "typical" 2km ships when that size is not typical on this game.]

The stations are not a true problem since those blocks are not going to move. [Most probably you are going to get errors to build at some sizes depending on the server load.]

If you start to move a sector size entity trough some sectors the server is going to start to have issues. [Correct me if i am wrong but atleast around 1 year ago that stuff happened.]

Sounds like you just have a ship thats larger than the sectors it's in, that causes issues of course, the general size of the ship shouldnt be too much of an issue unless you have a lower than average computer.

 

[Crusade]

Some info on how physics in StarMade is handled:

To my knowledge physics are calculated ONLY on segments that are near/require a collision check.

People often mistake large entities as being the cause of lag in the game - this is not entirely true.
Here's why.

When you have a large entity without anything docked to it, and you ram it into a planet, it calculated the segments that collide with the planet.

If you take the same ship with two dozen docked ships and fifty turrets, it also check every one of THOSE entities for collision with the planet.

It's not the size of the entity that causes the lag, it's the amount of entities that are docked to the large thing that are checked for collisions that cause lag.

 

[GDPR 302420]

"As for your statement "Java is good for getting things done faster" I would disagree on the grounds that Java is no more difficult to learn and/or code as a language then something like C#, its just different libraries and slightly different syntax."
My point wasn't about learning, it was about cross platform development issues with C languages. Additionally I think it's not just slightly different syntax. Man if it wasn't such a big deal, people would not use Java at all, because C languages seem so fast. I fail to see, that a developer chooses Java just because he is used to the language. I think there is more to it than we booth know. I tried to express it to you.

"Correct, C++ is much harder to program in but it gives ultimate control over areas where preformance matters" Why in the world is performance in Starmade a deal? We talk about Starmade. Not Crisis 5. If I can choose if Starmade gets developed faster just by 20% because the dev used a less complex language, than I am pretty sure not the guy who complains about it being not so pretty or not so performant.

You know what game is not written in Java? Space Engineers. And this game is unplayable as soon as the ships just reach 10% of the scale Starmade gives us! So don't brag about performance being all about the language, and that Java or not is even a big issue. It's a small issue, not even worth mentioning. Gosh.

The thing you try to point out to are the bugs in the game and sometimes the crazy lag it has, and sometimes the fps loss due to bugs. But the same issues would be with any other language. I get that those problems are annoying. But I for my part don't raise my expectations too high, and have no urge to complain about it on and on. I don't understand that honestly.

This is just a nice game for me. Why is it so important to you, that it get's developed even faster and better? Why are you annoyed by the developers pace so much? Yes I understand that it's okay and important to point out problems, give feedback. But I see you writting here a lot. This can't be so important to you mate, that it justifies all the invested time that you put into here. It's just Schema and his folks, they didn't promisse you the world. Be human and let us all have fun instead of focusing on so much negative stuff.

I find it funny how you literaly ignored 99% of my post talking about how Java is inferior in every relevent aspect to C# or C++

Also, of course bugs are going to exist regardless of the engine, duh

But as I mentioned before, it is evident that Java is inferior in almost all relevent aspects in terms of development of 3D games then other engines.

And no, I was not trying to say "StarMade would not be buggy if they switched to x engine" thats a strawman my dude. What I was saying is that Java in general is not a good lang to make games with, even Notch (creator of minecraft) said one of his biggest regrets with developing minecraft was not switching away from Java sooner.

Also, using a cherry picked game like Space Engineers to validate your point is one of the weakest and dishonest debate tactics around, get some proper evidence for validation or dont debate at all.

It's just Schema and his folks, they didn't promisse you the world. Be human and let us all have fun instead of focusing on so much negative stuff.

Psst, hey, developers not promising "x" does not make them immune from criticism

 

[Dr. Whammy]

It's not the size of the entity that causes the lag, it's the amount of entities that are docked to the large thing that are checked for collisions that cause lag.

To clarify, it's actually the amount of overlapping bounding boxes combined with the cumulative effect of multiple structure faces. The overall size of an assembly does have an impact on lag but there's more to it than that; as I have made multiple server breaking builds under 100m long and under 10k mass.

To amplify this problem, there is an issue where if you build a structure, the bounding box grows in relation to the structure's size. However, if you scrap part of your build in an attempt to make it smaller, the bounding box stays at the larger size. Note how this station's box extends an additional 700+ meters on the X axis. Imagine this on a large faction station, a capital or multiple planet plates.


The real fun begins when the bounding boxes of two or more craft with large entity counts intersect...

Game power updates and Java programming aside; the way collision checks are handled is what really needs work in StarMade.

 

[silverfoe]

StarMade CAN NOT MANAGE PROPERLY a 2km entity regardless of number of blocks of that entity.[Vanilla configs, most probably same problems on custom configs. ]

But "to be fair" Can you show to us a "typical" 2km ship doing things at Starmade? [Or that is another fallacy to lick feets?]

But back on topic is totally amazing how every negative feedback ends on a "brainless lick of feet" to Schine [That can be worst for the healthy´s game than a brainless negative feedback.], more than a smart answer.

madman Captain can show you, he made a good one on CBS iirc. Starmade can most definitely handle 2km ships, especially when not in battle like the vid you showed. Unlike the vid you showed his ship is not a simple 2km spear. In fact, I've imported several 3d models in the game at 3km+ length. The fps goes to ~30ish but otherwise no glitchiness occurs.

 

[JinM]

Also, using a cherry picked game like Space Engineers to validate your point is one of the weakest and dishonest debate tactics around, get some proper evidence for validation or dont debate at all.

Dude I am not here to persuade you, I just speak my mind. Sorry for not joining your Java or not debate but I am not even interested into arguing about all the details you present. That's not because I ignore them. I allready admitted, that there are other more performant languages than Java. So I see no point into countering them. You are right with that.

Still I present an other point of view, where I say, that Space Engineers can't handle a fraction of the scale Starmade can achieve in battles. And you just tell me, that this is not an propper argument. You talk about strawman stuff and every other logical expression you can find, just to nullify my words. What ever. I dont even read such stuff very carefully because it doesn't really add to this discussion. I don't need to convince you.

But I think everyone here agrees with me, that your AntiJava talk doesn't help the developer at all. This is just unconstructive. I mean what are they supposed to do about it? Change the language now? But I think it is important for everyone here, that people also try to see the upsides of Java. And my point stands, that developer don't choose one language over the other, just because they are more used to Java. You didn't reply to that one argument either.

And stop insulting my argumentation style. If you don't like it, stop talking to me. As long as I don't insult you or hurt your feelings I think its all fine. You just try really hard to find something negative where you can complain about in my texts.

But thank you for the talk anyway. I hope it wasn't too disappointing for you. Have a nice day anyway and don't think I want to make your day bad or something.

 

[GDPR 302420]

Dude I am not here to persuade you, I just speak my mind. Sorry for not joining your Java or not debate but I am not even interested into arguing about all the details you present.

Well you are clearly here for something, else you would not be replying to my statements

"Dude I am not here to persuade you, I just speak my mind. Sorry for not joining your Schine can do no wrong train but I am not even interested in arguing all the details you present."

Still I present an other point of view, where I say, that Space Engineers can't handle a fraction of the scale Starmade can achieve in battles. And you just tell me, that this is not an propper argument

It isnt a valid argument because its cherry picking for validation.

If we wanna play the cherry picking game, Avorion has a SMALLER dev team them StarMade working on the game for a similar amount of time yet they are able to come out with a game with a superior building system, much more optimized gameplay, similar sized playable universe and actual NPC factions that are procedural generated rather then recycled using prefabs designed by the devs.

You talk about strawman stuff and every other logical expression you can find, just to nullify my words.

You nullified your words yourself by making your entire argument based flawed logic and reasoning, I was just pointing it out

What ever. I dont even read such stuff very carefully because it doesn't really add to this discussion. I don't need to convince you.

So you admit to not even reading before responding, well the expains a lot.

"I am not even reading X" seems to be a common theme with the Schine Defense Squad

But I think everyone here agrees with me, that your AntiJava talk doesn't help the developer at all.

Neither do fanboy squads who will blindly defend their princess schine against any and all criticism.

This is just unconstructive.

Its perfectly constructive, but I guess I would probably try and say "X" argument is not constructive when I have no other counters to criticism either :D

, that people also try to see the upsides of Java

Java has no relevent advantages over any other programming language then can be used for games, it is beaten by C# in almost every aspect.

Before late 2015, there was only one reason to use Java for 3D game development over C#, Mobile Games, specifically for Android, but now that other languages can be used for mobile game development, there is no reason to use Java for 3D games.

I mean what are they supposed to do about it? Change the language now?

Markus Notch Person said one of his biggest regrets when developing Minecraft was not switching away from Java to make his game sooner, ill let you interpret the answer from that.

 

[jorgekorke]

Can we at least agree that despite the game being able to deal with titans, having them in combat is a massive and unpractical pain in the ass?
Especially with those hundreds of PD's reacting to missile fire.

 

[Drakkart]

And my point stands, that developer don't choose one language over the other, just because they are more used to Java.

Well that is the case in starmade they do not switch because java is familiar and the recoding would be really heavy. Afaiam informed there would be more performant options like C++ but development also goes on a different speed despite they would have to check on multiple systems over and over to make sure the platform support is given java pretty much covers that to some extend but yes they are reaching the limits with the display stuff for example which is differently interpreted on different platforms. still java for now is their choice oflanguage.

 

[JinM]

Well you are clearly here for something, else you would not be replying to my statements

"Dude I am not here to persuade you, I just speak my mind. Sorry for not joining your Schine can do no wrong train but I am not even interested in arguing all the details you present."



It isnt a valid argument because its cherry picking for validation.

If we wanna play the cherry picking game, Avorion has a SMALLER dev team them StarMade working on the game for a similar amount of time yet they are able to come out with a game with a superior building system, much more optimized gameplay, similar sized playable universe and actual NPC factions that are procedural generated rather then recycled using prefabs designed by the devs.



You nullified your words yourself by making your entire argument based flawed logic and reasoning, I was just pointing it out



So you admit to not even reading before responding, well the expains a lot.

"I am not even reading X" seems to be a common theme with the Schine Defense Squad



Neither do fanboy squads who will blindly defend their princess schine against any and all criticism.



Its perfectly constructive, but I guess I would probably try and say "X" argument is not constructive when I have no other counters to criticism either :D



Java has no relevent advantages over any other programming language then can be used for games, it is beaten by C# in almost every aspect.

Before late 2015, there was only one reason to use Java for 3D game development over C#, Mobile Games, specifically for Android, but now that other languages can be used for mobile game development, there is no reason to use Java for 3D games.



Markus Notch Person said one of his biggest regrets when developing Minecraft was not switching away from Java to make his game sooner, ill let you interpret the answer from that.

You know I, the fanboy defending princess Shine, just tried to end our conversation. Let me use different words I sometimes heard from people I am too interested into: I don't want to risk our precious relationship by going further, and think we should stay friends.

 

[silverfoe]

StarMade actually has c++ speed for cpu heavy parts of the game.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

StarMade actually has c++ speed for cpu heavy parts of the game.

I've heard this as well. Unfortunately, multi-player servers need to process the CPU information from everything that every player sees and does.

Considering how most players like to build, and considering that most StarMade "servers" are either the technical equivalent of top tier gaming rigs or portions of a larger enterprise-level server, it's not hard to see why lag continues to be an issue.

 

[The Judge]

I'm gonna be honest

Have you seen a game that has been in alpha for >4 years and emerged successfully? Even with the new updates to power and future updates to the universe, I am not confident that Starmade will be able to compete with other games that can release better content far faster than Schine, on a platform that's not as limited as Java.

 

[silverfoe]

Oh boy seriusly you getted the context of what i said and basically you <Put here something that make an insta permaban>.

Let´s to resume it fast and dirty.

1º - Over a game engine disscusion a forum user make a fallacy to lick feets.

2º - I put a video to show that affirmation was a fallacy. [Aparently some forum users are mad supossing i am saying SE > SM, when the intention was not that.]

3º - I said SM can not handle a 2km entities at CURRENT VANILLA CONFIGS, and most probably at custom configs too. [That is something i am still affirming, of course it is very dependent on the server´s hardware and load that you are going to use that 2km entity.]

???

 

[kulbolen]

It's not the size of the entity that causes the lag, it's the amount of entities that are docked to the large thing that are checked for collisions that cause lag.

its both.

Have a nice day anyway

your avatar is the eagle from rescuers down under

 

[JinM]

your avatar is the eagle from rescuers down under

Ya, I like this movie. =) Cool that someone else knows it, I think only a few have watched it.