Starmade interest through the years

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    I noticed that too, I guess you only start to relies this game and its community is in deep shit when you have been playing for about 4 years haha
    Most of the regular players who have been playing for that long have stopped playing. They've levied many criticisms against the game and Schine. I have watched countless people get frustrated and leave this game. Most of the people I play with have no interest in coming back. Some even feel insulted by schemas interaction with them. For those people I understand why they left but it doesn't mean I agree with them. I feel differently about how the development of this game is handled. It isn't being developed purely as a commercial product, it's a labor of love for the creator.

    I feel I have no more right to tell Schine how to make their game. They want to do things the way they want to do them and that is fine. I'm not going to waste my time trying to get them to change how they want to do things. All I can do is tell them how I feel about what they do. If they don't care then that is it. I see no reason to go wherever I can to tell them why starmade sucks or why I hate it.

    As long as I see work being doing and things being tried, then I have nothing to be angry about.
     
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    I'm a "new" player (1 year), who paid for the game, but stopped playing. I occasionally drop by the forums in the hope that what I will see will entice me to play again.

    I stopped because (in order of importance):

    1. A percentage of the players are incredibly toxic. Expect personal attacks for expressing opinions different to theirs (not attacks on your opinion - attacks on you)
    I truly don't care if you think this is an unreasonable reason to leave - it got me to leave, and I'll bet anything I'm not the only one by a long shot.

    2. As I see it, building is the absolute crux, the core, the essence of the game. The building system is functional but is too slow, and too clumsy.
    I'm someone with a job and a family, I can't afford to sink weeks into a build that could be done in hours with a good system. I accept and understand that perhaps people with jobs and families aren't the main target market for SM, and if so: so be it.
    My view on this is probably affected by the fact that I'm an engineer who designs ships in real life, and use commercial grade software to do so. I wouldn't expect the same in SM, but serious improvement is needed.

    3. When I tried to introduce some friends to the game they gave it a try, but didn't come back. As far as I can tell this is due to two reasons: slow building as mentioned in point 2, and an ugly, dark system that we played in (absolute black with a green star from memory??). I personally don't care what systems look like, but some do - they should all (or almost all) be beautiful, and probably on the lighter side of the colour spectrum.​


    A final point that didn't make my top three: a functioning economy is necessary for the game to start "living".

    I sincerely and genuinely love the possibilities offered by SM - I desperately want to sink my spare time into it, but currently don't for the reasons above.
     
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    You are forgetting the massive "run from this game" moments.

    As i remember:

    1st one was the weapon change.

    2nd one was the turret mechanics change.

    And the 3rd one is going to happen if Schine make a crap with the new power system.[As aparently they are going to do with the info they gived.]
    Adding in a multitude of weapons other than just cannons and missiles drove people away how??
    Changing from a clip-tastic and placeholder docking system was bad how?

    I have never heard any complaints about either, and are surprised to see them being listed as negatives. Or am I misunderstanding your post:?
     
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    Dire Venom believe or not at the weapon improvement some servers closed and some players stoped playing. [I know that sounds weird but is the true, if my memory do not fails that stuff is at this forums.]

    The docking system change was not a problem, the problem were the turret change mechanics, atleast at the server i was playing [passed from +20 players to 5 aprox]

    Is a mix of some people that do not want to change or do not want how works those changes.
    Intersting. If anything an update actualy encourages me to get back into starmade.
    Personally the only reason I would play mp anymore would be to chat with other players, most servers seem to die or fall back to a couple of players eventually, there simply isn't much beyond building at this point which is better done in SP.
     

    Nauvran

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    Intersting. If anything an update actualy encourages me to get back into starmade.
    Personally the only reason I would play mp anymore would be to chat with other players, most servers seem to die or fall back to a couple of players eventually, there simply isn't much beyond building at this point which is better done in SP.
    pssst kid, I know a fun place where you can build and go lurk around other people while they build.
    It's CBS.
     

    JumpSuit

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    Intersting. If anything an update actualy encourages me to get back into starmade.
    Personally the only reason I would play mp anymore would be to chat with other players, most servers seem to die or fall back to a couple of players eventually, there simply isn't much beyond building at this point which is better done in SP.
    psssstttt dood, Freaks R Us is populated 5-15 players.
     
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    I think that it is funny how quickly and conveniently people forget that Starmade is only v 0.199.654, when they start complaining about how poorly/slowly they think the game is being made by mostly volunteers in there spare time. And that Shine has said many, many times that they are still working in the core mechanics of the game, and that nothing is final yet.
    Personally, i only play when there is an update, to check things out, or if i get in the mood to build something. while i agree that the game needs more life, and it is starting to, needs a better economy, also starting to get there, and we need more to do than just mine-build-bored. However, I still am excited to see where this ride takes us, and that is what is keeping me, and i suspect many of the doubters coming back, despite there pessimism.
     

    jorgekorke

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    Dire Venom believe or not at the weapon improvement some servers closed and some players stoped playing. [I know that sounds weird but is the true, if my memory do not fails that stuff is at this forums.]

    The docking system change was not a problem, the problem were the turret change mechanics, atleast at the server i was playing [passed from +20 players to 5 aprox]

    Is a mix of some people that do not want to change or do not want how works those changes.
    I'd say the blueprint update too, considering how all other places went to dust leaving only EE and RS with life back in time.
     
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    I think that it is funny how quickly and conveniently people forget that Starmade is only v 0.199.654,
    There's no forgetting and there's no convenient. The game's development has practically stalled - there's only been a couple actual updates in the last two years and only really shipyards were something that made people interested enough to try the game again. NPC factions are pointless and unsatisfying as they exist right now, the universe is still pirate-owned, most of the weapon types are still useless and there's still no GAME. Even the power update won't change this - you'll refit your ships or make new ones and then they'll go back to sitting in your homebase doing nothing.

    Point is, it's """""""early""""""" in development but it's been there for many years and in the meantime there's been other games coming out that do what Starmade does, but better. Skywanderers in particular is set to eat Starmade's lunch. It's taken so long that the game's become irrelevant, which is reflected in the search interest.

    The dev documents aren't inspiring either. The scope is unrealistic and constantly getting expanded with nothing to show for it. Even as a passion project it's bad to never be able to say you're actually finished with the game - people, including devs get bored. Small teams are especially susceptible to this. If you've planned THE GREATEST GAME EVER but it takes 25 years to bring about, it benefits nobody. Right now unless development speeds up, that's how it's going to go. 10% of the work takes 90% of the time, and we're not even in polishing yet.

    I'm relatively new, I bought the game in April 2015 but what optimism I've had about the game is long gone.
     
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    Adding in a multitude of weapons other than just cannons and missiles drove people away how??
    Changing from a clip-tastic and placeholder docking system was bad how?

    I have never heard any complaints about either, and are surprised to see them being listed as negatives. Or am I misunderstanding your post:?
    The steam charts show at the timeframes of major updates a bump in player count by the end of the month the update was released. That bump left by the end of the month after (by the end of the month after that in some isolated cases)

    The evidence shows the updates bring in some players, but it seems that playerbase is around for a month at the very most before they fuck off.

    I think that it is funny how quickly and conveniently people forget that Starmade is only v 0.199.654, when they start complaining about how poorly/slowly they think the game is being made by mostly volunteers in there spare time. And that Shine has said many, many times that they are still working in the core mechanics of the game, and that nothing is final yet.
    Personally, i only play when there is an update, to check things out, or if i get in the mood to build something. while i agree that the game needs more life, and it is starting to, needs a better economy, also starting to get there, and we need more to do than just mine-build-bored. However, I still am excited to see where this ride takes us, and that is what is keeping me, and i suspect many of the doubters coming back, despite there pessimism.
    I think its funny how quickly and conveniently people forget that StarMade has been in development for 6 years and when StarMade is compared to other early access space voxel games, you begin to quickly relise the "Its alpha grr" excuse becomes meaningless and invalid.

    Compare StarMade to games like Avorion, Empyrion and even Skywanderes, unless you are blind fanboy you will come to the same conclusion: All the games I just mentioned in spite of being in development with similar sized teams over similar periods of time (in some cases even less time) absolutely trash StarMade in almost every aspect, The "its alpha" excuse is all but invalid when you
    compare StarMade to games that work.



     

    Nauvran

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    The steam charts show at the timeframes of major updates a bump in player count by the end of the month the update was released. That bump left by the end of the month after (by the end of the month after that in some isolated cases)

    The evidence shows the updates bring in some players, but it seems that playerbase is around for a month at the very most before they fuck off.



    I think its funny how quickly and conveniently people forget that StarMade has been in development for 6 years and when StarMade is compared to other early access space voxel games, you begin to quickly relise the "Its alpha grr" excuse becomes meaningless and invalid.

    Compare StarMade to games like Avorion, Empyrion and even Skywanderes, unless you are blind fanboy you will come to the same conclusion: All the games I just mentioned in spite of being in development with similar sized teams over similar periods of time (in some cases even less time) absolutely trash StarMade in almost every aspect, The "its alpha" excuse is all but invalid when you
    compare StarMade to games that work.


    I dont know about Avorion or Empyrion but Skywanderers is made in unity, which (as far as I know) makes things a lot easier to do, I do agree that 6 years of development is a long time and that the whole alpha thing is getting tiring but Im not sure how fair it is to compare all these games's developments when they've been made in different engines and by people with different amount of experience
     
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    Im not sure how fair it is to compare all these games's developments when they've been made in different engines and by people with different amount of experience
    What engine StarMade users over another game is not relevant, if anything Schine's use of an inferior engine (created in Java) only futher proves the point I am making.

    As for experience, well if you look at the linkedin profiles for some of the Schineboys you can see that at least a majority have experience, so there is no real excuse. But if they are hiring developers with no experience and/or developing with no experience, that proves my point even futher.
     
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    What engine StarMade users over another game is not relevant, if anything Schine's use of an inferior engine (created in Java) only futher proves the point I am making.

    As for experience, well if you look at the linkedin profiles for some of the Schineboys you can see that at least a majority have experience, so there is no real excuse. But if they are hiring developers with no experience and/or developing with no experience, that proves my point even futher.
    "Schine's use of an inferior engine (created in Java) only futher proves the point I am making" For me it only proofes, that you need some additional knowledge about programming.

    If we use Java, C++ or an Engine like Unity: It doesn't affect the perfomance that greatly if you don't have the ressources to optimise the code. You know, that performance boost you see in games that use c++ doesn't come just from using an equal size of code in another language, it comes from the usage of many features and the great additional work amount that comes with implementing that ressource efficient code. C++ has the ability to make very performant applications, like we see with the c++ version of Minecraft, but only if you invest a great amount of work into improving the code. So for small projects like Minecraft was or now Starmade is, Java is a great choice, as it gives you the ability to develop at greater speed. All bigger games are coded in C++, but only because these companies actually have the ressources and additional programmers to get everything out of c++. And Java is better to distribute over several platforms. So it really is faster to develop here.

    Yes, using c++ in a game has an impact to performance. But this additional performance comes with great additional work. Did you really think Notch used Java because he had no clue about C++? No, he choose Java, because he actually knew what he was doing and what the pros and cons of booth languages were. He wanted to get shit done. For him Minecraft was not a tech demo that needed to look pretty and needed to be optimised, but a game that needed fast development and new content.

    Engines like Unity or Unreal are great for developers that don't have the patience or time, to work on their own engine and other basic ressources. The biggest downside are first: Money, you pay a one time fee or a percentage fee. Secondly: Limitations, as you can't tinker in every feature as you like it to technical or legal reasons. Lastly: For everything special you want in your game, you can't just change the Engine, as this is forbidden by the terms of use or just not possible code-wise. And if you allready have tinkered on your own engine for years, and have set up the basic stuff, you might not want to pay for another engine. Oh and most importantly: Using a third party engine can take a big part of your indepence...What happens if Unity one day decides to really fuck things up (Like stopping to support a certain version of windows, or to completly stop developing, forcing you to give up on new driver support or new technology for graphics cards)?
     
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    If we use Java, C++ or an Engine like Unity: It doesn't affect the perfomance that greatly if you don't have the ressources to optimise the code.
    I fail to see what point you are trying to make from this.

    You know, that performance boost you see in games that use c++ doesn't come just from using an equal size of code in another language, it comes from the usage of many features and the great additional work amount that comes with implementing that ressource efficient code. C++ has the ability to make very performant applications, like we see with the c++ version of Minecraft, but only if you invest a great amount of work into improving the code. So for small projects like Minecraft was or now Starmade is, Java is a great choice, as it gives you the ability to develop at greater speed.
    I am aware of this, the reason I would say that Java is an inferior language is because it does not give you as many means of making an application preform better.

    One of the big ones you will hear mentioned a lot in the "Java vs else" debate is custom value types.

    I have copypasted a summary on custom values types and how they make C# specifcly better then java from games below, this summary comes from this article.

    In C#, Value Types are objects that are declared with the struct keyword instead of class. The difference is that even though they look like classes, they act more like integers and other primitive types. In fact, C# defines primitive types as structs. This is in contrast to Java, in which integers can never act as objects (unless you employ ugly wrappers) and where you can’t define your own primitive types.

    Structs are not allocated on the heap (which means no garbage), and each time you pass them around they get copied instead of referenced; just like integers. This might not sound like a big thing, but it makes all the difference in the world.

    When structs are used appropriately, the benefits over something like java (which does not support struct) are numerous:

    • Faster iteration over elements
      You get cache locality and avoid the cost of an extra reference.
    • Less memory usage
      An array of a class that contains a single integer will consume overall double the memory on 32-bit applications and triple that on 64-bit than its struct equivalent.
    • No need for intermediate buffers
      You can send your arrays via OpenGL directly as buffers, without having to copy everything.
    In addition, with C#, struct creates no garbage, provides better immutability for members, aiding software design patterns (still not as great as immutability in C++, but it’s a step forward from Java) and a lot more.





    As for C++, the reason it is much more effective then Java is because it gives you much more control and you get get more out of it (as you already mentioned)

    As for your statement "Java is good for getting things done faster" I would disagree on the grounds that Java is no more difficult to learn and/or code as a language then something like C#, its just different libraries and slightly different syntax.

    All bigger games are coded in C++, but only because these companies actually have the ressources and additional programmers to get everything out of c++.
    Correct, C++ is much harder to program in but it gives ultimate control over areas where preformance matters, but a more "small dev team friendly" language like C# beats Java in almost every aspect while being just as easy and "small dev team friendly"

    Java does not have any relevent advantages over C#, let alone C++

    Engines like Unity or Unreal are great for developers that don't have the patience or time, to work on their own engine and other basic ressources. The biggest downside are first: Money, you pay a one time fee or a percentage fee. Secondly: Limitations, as you can't tinker in every feature as you like it to technical or legal reasons. Lastly: For everything special you want in your game, you can't just change the Engine, as this is forbidden by the terms of use or just not possible code-wise. And if you allready have tinkered on your own engine for years, and have set up the basic stuff, you might not want to pay for another engine.
    I fail to see what point you are trying to make from this.
    [doublepost=1507119776,1507119631][/doublepost]For all intents and purposes, Java is an inferior language to something like C# or C++

    Heck, one of the only advantages Java had over other languages (much better for android aplications) is no longer relevent as of about 2015-2016.

    I will admit that "you are coding in Java therfor you suck" is not a valid statement on its own, but I mentioned it to add on to other statements I made previously.
     
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    I fail to see what point you are trying to make from this.



    I am aware of this, the reason I would say that Java is an inferior language is because it does not give you as many means of making an application preform better.

    One of the big ones you will hear mentioned a lot in the "Java vs else" debate is custom value types.

    I have copypasted a summary on custom values types and how they make C# specifcly better then java from games below, this summary comes from this article.

    In C#, Value Types are objects that are declared with the struct keyword instead of class. The difference is that even though they look like classes, they act more like integers and other primitive types. In fact, C# defines primitive types as structs. This is in contrast to Java, in which integers can never act as objects (unless you employ ugly wrappers) and where you can’t define your own primitive types.

    Structs are not allocated on the heap (which means no garbage), and each time you pass them around they get copied instead of referenced; just like integers. This might not sound like a big thing, but it makes all the difference in the world.

    When structs are used appropriately, the benefits over something like java (which does not support struct) are numerous:

    • Faster iteration over elements
      You get cache locality and avoid the cost of an extra reference.
    • Less memory usage
      An array of a class that contains a single integer will consume overall double the memory on 32-bit applications and triple that on 64-bit than its struct equivalent.
    • No need for intermediate buffers
      You can send your arrays via OpenGL directly as buffers, without having to copy everything.
    In addition, with C#, struct creates no garbage, provides better immutability for members, aiding software design patterns (still not as great as immutability in C++, but it’s a step forward from Java) and a lot more.





    As for C++, the reason it is much more effective then Java is because it gives you much more control and you get get more out of it (as you already mentioned)

    As for your statement "Java is good for getting things done faster" I would disagree on the grounds that Java is no more difficult to learn and/or code as a language then something like C#, its just different libraries and slightly different syntax.



    Correct, C++ is much harder to program in but it gives ultimate control over areas where preformance matters, but a more "small dev team friendly" language like C# beats Java in almost every aspect while being just as easy and "small dev team friendly"

    Java does not have any relevent advantages over C#, let alone C++



    I fail to see what point you are trying to make from this.
    [doublepost=1507119776,1507119631][/doublepost]For all intents and purposes, Java is an inferior language to something like C# or C++

    Heck, one of the only advantages Java had over other languages (much better for android aplications) is no longer relevent as of about 2015-2016.

    I will admit that "you are coding in Java therfor you suck" is not a valid statement on its own, but I mentioned it to add on to other statements I made previously.
    "As for your statement "Java is good for getting things done faster" I would disagree on the grounds that Java is no more difficult to learn and/or code as a language then something like C#, its just different libraries and slightly different syntax."
    My point wasn't about learning, it was about cross platform development issues with C languages. Additionally I think it's not just slightly different syntax. Man if it wasn't such a big deal, people would not use Java at all, because C languages seem so fast. I fail to see, that a developer chooses Java just because he is used to the language. I think there is more to it than we booth know. I tried to express it to you.

    "Correct, C++ is much harder to program in but it gives ultimate control over areas where preformance matters" Why in the world is performance in Starmade a deal? We talk about Starmade. Not Crisis 5. If I can choose if Starmade gets developed faster just by 20% because the dev used a less complex language, than I am pretty sure not the guy who complains about it being not so pretty or not so performant.

    You know what game is not written in Java? Space Engineers. And this game is unplayable as soon as the ships in a battle situation just reach 10% of the scale Starmade gives us! So don't brag about performance being all about the language, and that Java or not is even a big issue. It's a small issue, not even worth mentioning. Gosh.

    The thing you try to point out to are the bugs in the game and sometimes the crazy lag it has, and sometimes the fps loss due to bugs. But the same issues would be with any other language. I get that those problems are annoying. But I for my part don't raise my expectations too high, and have no urge to complain about it on and on. I don't understand that honestly.

    This is just a nice game for me. Why is it so important to you, that it get's developed even faster and better? Why are you annoyed by the developers pace so much? Yes I understand that it's okay and important to point out problems, give feedback. But I see you writting here a lot. This can't be so important to you mate, that it justifies all the invested time that you put into here. It's just Schema and his folks, they didn't promisse you the world. Be human and let us all have fun instead of focusing on so much negative stuff.
     
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    SE is required a better minimun requeriments than SM, if you have the medium specs for that game you are not going to have those issues.
    Even with high spec pcs this game doesn't work as soon as a 50m long ship battles another. ^^ That doesn't mean SE isn't a cool game. But I don't play it very often.