Community Behaviour

[JinM]

As I don't know how the mods and admins of this forum, that are in charge, think of my issue, I want say that I don't intend to create some unneeded fuzz about nothing.

I reffer to the closing of the recent power update news post, and the way people are allowed to destroy usefull discussions with their constant "abilities" that make any usefull conversation unbearable to read for me as forum user.

In fact I am sick of reading through this so called "discussions" that get started by Lecic and others. I don't care if this people understand what I want or what my problem is, I just want that it changes.

And it should change in a way, that people can talk to each other without having to fear, that 5 people push each other and throw useless comments at each other. Useless discussions are hard to detect, but Lecic and some other dudes who are thinking that it is usefull to even respond to him, don't understand what is important about a topic and what only seems to be an issue.

What happens here is a simple snowball tactic: The first guy thinks "hey my opinion about this issue A is very justified", and some other people think "no you are wrong and I like to disagree with you". What booth sides don't see: Discussing the wrong viewpoint of issue A is the real problem.

It is totally fine to say once what you think. But here on this forum, people respond to issue A and then throw one useless discussion tantrum after the other.

This isn't only Lecic or any other dudes fault who wants to complain. Complaining is fine, and I think saying what you think is good. Unneccessary replying to that complaints and re-replying is the issue.

I suggest that you guys try to read in other forums, and see how stuff gets handled there. There people talk to each other, but when someone disagrees with another, they stop, and the topic isnt plugged by a 3 page long discussion about this or that in the news posts.

What I want in the end is a nice discussion culture in this forum, where many people participate without having to fear harsh critique just for stating their opinion. And I think just closing posts is not enough. I think saying what can be said differently and stating discussion goals is something needed here. I mean Lecic gets treated just as bad too: When he says what he thinks, he gets just as bad critique too. This isn't about the complaining, but how people have gotten used to a certain way of criticising each others opinions. And this is about allowing such discussions to grow too.

I want, that people can come to this forum, and read easily through forum posts, and don't have to read through too many useless discussions. Reading too much texts with too many small new opinions or just big discussions can get very tiresome for many people who like to read through this forum. And when they are tired of reading shallow discussions, they are not motivated to post their opinion too.

Closure: I don't want that valuable feedback gets destroyed by too much control. But in the case of this forum, I think many people that have valuable feedback don't participate anymore in the discussions, because they have a hard time coping with this tantrums and derailments. Discussions don't get useless in this forum by personal attacks, but by too many side tracking disagreements, that bloat a forum post over 20 comments very often.

Suggestions:
-Opinion A gets stated by Dude A. Disagreeing words get replied by Dude B. And when this discussion then prolongs just delete all the replies (except opinion A and disagreement B) of everyone who participated with the issue of opinion A. Writte a comment in the topic and say: We deleted some not very usefull posts after the initial opinions and counter opinions got stated. It's fine to voice your opinions and issues with something, and it's fine to reply once to that, but we deleted everything after that 2 (or like 4) initial posts because there was no new opinion or usefull fact in your texts guys.

-Don't close topics, instead say: If this particular issue gets discussed further we delete the comments or think about warning points

- Or: Don't close the topic, and delete the whole comments (not just comment parts) who contained any remark to the intial opinion A and clearly state: We wanted to make a clear statement, that we want on topic discussions, and after the recent history, we think that everyone has to wake up now. We will monitor in the future, if the same people make the same mistakes again, and we will edit certain people out of future discussions, if they don't learn whats a difference between stating your opinion once and derailing a discussion by defending it again and again.

 

[Groovrider]

I agree with you but expect lots of "funny" tags on your post.

 

[diremage]

A news post telling people to watch a stream to get any information at all about a news post, is closed for being off topic because people are talking about the stream on the news post.

Working as intended.

Regarding your suggestions, deleting posts: that's called censureship and it's not ever a good thing. Granted Schine is based in Europe where it's culturally a bit more acceptable, but here in 'murrica people tend to vote with their feet when that starts happening. Unless a post is actually illegal in some way (posting obscene or copyrighted content, for instance) it should probably stay put.

 

[Excelsior]

Regarding your suggestions, deleting posts: that's called censureship and it's not ever a good thing. Granted Schine is based in Europe where it's culturally a bit more acceptable, but here in 'murrica people tend to vote with their feet when that starts happening. Unless a post is actually illegal in some way (posting obscene or copyrighted content, for instance) it should probably stay put.

First of all, what a cliché! We can talk about politic for a loooooooong run before being able to agree on what bring people to "vote with their feet". In my mind, it's more hoax, fake news and other "so lovely liberal stuffs" never deleted in name of the sacrosanct "freedom of speech" than a gentle thread cleaning. In my european point of view "freedom stops where someone else begins". No need to be illegal to be moderated. Just need to be disrespectfull. In my mind, being adult come with the ability of respectfull debate. Thats maybe why a lot of companies all over the world tries to establish efficients communications rules. Dont forget that time is a resource. Certainly the most precious one.

You had understand thatI agree with a peacefull moderation when some parts are clearly of bad faith.

 

[Lecic]

I'm printing and framing this post and putting it on my wall

Edit: Example of an offtopic or non constructive post. Would normally be removed on other threads.

 

[JinM]

I think I didnt express myself right in the suggestions: I think its perfectly fine to not delete opinion A and disagreement B, but if then happens a somewhat "shallow" discussion, the rest should be deleted, if it didnt add any real new opinion or fact. So only opinion A and disagreement B stays, and the mod writes in a comment that he deleted further replies that contained replies to opinion A, as there was nothing really new added by the prolonged discussion. The goal is to have a cleaner forum, where some cleaning happens, but the opinions don't get deleted and everyone still can voice his opinion - or use the agree button if something was allready said. Just trim some of the unnatural long and stressful conversations a little bit so people have an easier time reading here and enjoy their stay.

I also know, that my solutions don't help very well when people complain, that forcing SM-players to watch a stream just to get some info would be a bad thing. In that special case I would have said something like "Guys you get the news anyway, don't be so formal and picky about SM, we are a small group after all. The infos and details about the new system will reach you anyway, and it doesn't matter if one week earlier or later! The final system will still be tweaked and when we want excessive feedback we will for sure present it to you guys in a longer forum post."

(Seriously if I were a developer I would not enjoy sharing any information when I get harshly picked on with some noise just for saying that I present a prototype of my new system in a stream.)

 

[Dr. Whammy]

As I don't know how the mods and admins of this forum, that are in charge, think of my issue, I want say that I don't intend to create some unneeded fuzz about nothing.

I reffer to the closing of the recent power update news post, and the way people are allowed to destroy usefull discussions with their constant "abilities" that make any usefull conversation unbearable to read for me as forum user.

In fact I am sick of reading through this so called "discussions" that get started by Lecic and others. I don't care if this people understand what I want or what my problem is, I just want that it changes.

And it should change in a way, that people can talk to each other without having to fear, that 5 people push each other and throw useless comments at each other. Useless discussions are hard to detect, but Lecic and some other dudes who are thinking that it is usefull to even respond to him, don't understand what is important about a topic and what only seems to be an issue.

What happens here is a simple snowball tactic: The first guy thinks "hey my opinion about this issue A is very justified", and some other people think "no you are wrong and I like to disagree with you". What booth sides don't see: Discussing the wrong viewpoint of issue A is the real problem.

It is totally fine to say once what you think. But here on this forum, people respond to issue A and then throw one useless discussion tantrum after the other.

This isn't only Lecic or any other dudes fault who wants to complain. Complaining is fine, and I think saying what you think is good. Unneccessary replying to that complaints and re-replying is the issue.

I suggest that you guys try to read in other forums, and see how stuff gets handled there. There people talk to each other, but when someone disagrees with another, they stop, and the topic isnt plugged by a 3 page long discussion about this or that in the news posts.

What I want in the end is a nice discussion culture in this forum, where many people participate without having to fear harsh critique just for stating their opinion. And I think just closing posts is not enough. I think saying what can be said differently and stating discussion goals is something needed here. I mean Lecic gets treated just as bad too: When he says what he thinks, he gets just as bad critique too. This isn't about the complaining, but how people have gotten used to a certain way of criticising each others opinions. And this is about allowing such discussions to grow too.

I want, that people can come to this forum, and read easily through forum posts, and don't have to read through too many useless discussions. Reading too much texts with too many small new opinions or just big discussions can get very tiresome for many people who like to read through this forum. And when they are tired of reading shallow discussions, they are not motivated to post their opinion too.

Closure: I don't want that valuable feedback gets destroyed by too much control. But in the case of this forum, I think many people that have valuable feedback don't participate anymore in the discussions, because they have a hard time coping with this tantrums and derailments. Discussions don't get useless in this forum by personal attacks, but by too many side tracking disagreements, that bloat a forum post over 20 comments very often.

Suggestions:
-Opinion A gets stated by Dude A. Disagreeing words get replied by Dude B. And when this discussion then prolongs just delete all the replies of everyone who participated with the issue of opinion A. Writte a comment in the topic and say: We deleted some not very usefull posts after the initial opinions got stated. It's fine to voice your opinions and issues with something, and it's fine to reply once to that, but we deleted everything after that initial posts because there was no new opinion or usefull fact in your texts guys.

-Don't close topics, instead say: If this particular issue gets discussed further we delete the comments or think about warning points

- Or: Don't close the topic, and delete the whole comments (not just comment parts) who contained any remark to the intial opinion A and clearly state: We wanted to make a clear statement, that we want on topic discussions, and after the recent history, we think that everyone has to wake up now. We will monitor in the future, if the same people make the same mistakes again, and we will edit certain people out of future discussions, if they don't learn whats a difference between stating your opinion once and derailing a discussion by defending it again and again.

And here come the "funny" tags from the same people; how predictable. Don't sweat this. The concepts of respect and diplomacy are foreign concepts to some people. They act like D-bags simply because there's no consequence for doing so. After all, anyone can be a tough guy from behind a keyboard and monitor.

What's eventually going to happen is that the members who want to have an actual discussion without constant bickering are going to be forced to report all insulting, obscene, inflammatory language and behavior as well as spamming and deliberate thread derailment to the moderators and admins.

Recent profile posts claiming that Thingie is now following certain forum members suggests that the admin/mod team is aware of this problem and poised to act on it. Those of you who are tired of this nonsense are advised to familiarize yourself with the forum rules and report obvious violations to the mods/admins.

This is what it's come down to; you can either have every single discussion interrupted and derailed by malicious people or you can hold the site admins accountable for enforcing their own rules.

The choice is yours.

 

[Aesthetics]

Oh, dear. I promised myself I wouldn't reply to this, but alas, I deemed it necessary. So I'll give it to you straight. Discussions can get a little long winded but they are, like it or not, fundamental to the progress of this game, regardless of your opinion on them, and how they transpire. I cannot stress the importance of discussion enough. And so long as I remain here I will protect these discussions, and openly oppose suggestions like yours. They are, in my opinion, outrageous, and I cannot for the life of me believe you have the nerve and the audacity to propose such a thing.​

 

[diremage]

[Post has been deleted by moderator: -1 disagree]*








* Post no longer actually deleted by actual moderator. This post is satire and not an attempt to imitate an actual moderator and is posted in disagreement of censureship practices relating to the actual practice of censuring posts made in satire that are not an attempt to imitate an actual moderator.

 

[JumpSuit]

I'm printing and framing this post and putting it on my wall

More facts.
Edit: Example of an offtopic or non constructive post. Would normally be removed on other threads. Specifically this section, not the part below.
[doublepost=1505243852,1505243671][/doublepost]

(Seriously if I were a developer I would not enjoy sharing any information when I get harshly picked on with some noise just for saying that I present a prototype of my new system in a stream.)

If you'd be the one making the game, you HAVE to tell your followers (community) what the hell your plan is, not leave everyone who supports you left in the dark.

 

[Jake_Lancia]

Forum censorship? Are you kidding me?

The ENTIRE POINT of this forum is to have discussions, short ones and long ones and convoluted ones, about the game and it's features, to voice opinions, disagreements and the like on particular topics. To try and stamp that out would be an extremely reckless move by the moderator team, devolving the forum to little more than the shipyard and fan art sections, and a barren news section with the odd post aside from the devs' own.

Discussion is absolutely necessary to ensuring opinions get heard. Even if you don't like the opinion, it is still an opinion and should be treated with the same respect as anyone else's opinion on the matter.

What I instead suggest is:

• Encourage discussion and free speech on the news posts and other high-volume areas. Discussions and the like result in new ideas, for the devs, PR, moderators, etc., and likely will result in massive improvements that the community will notice and applaud Schine for doing. (weekly/bi-weekly dev blogs, anyone?)

[doublepost=1505245914,1505244290][/doublepost]On another note, directed more at the moderator team: STOP DELETING DISSENTING POSTS, like Lecic's posts where he stated his disapproval of news being stream-only. It only makes you appear authoritarian, like you cannot stand anyone disagreeing with your dear Schine, and even, dare I say it, like a fascist dictatorship that stamps out dissenting opinions.

 

[JumpSuit]

I haven't voiced my opinion much on starmadedock, but that will change as I see all kinds of bullshit from this, that, and the other. I ain't going to let someone control the way I speak or think about how things should go, but my opinion, YOUR opinion, and that guy's opinion (in general lol) matters if they choose to speak on the topic.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

Discussion is absolutely necessary to ensuring opinions get heard. Even if you don't like the opinion, it is still an opinion and should be treated with the same respect as anyone else's opinion on the matter.

If only that were the case. Unfortunately, it never is. Common courtesy really is a lost art; especially online.

Whether people believe it, agree with it or not, that is the main reason why he started this thread.

 

[DrTarDIS]

And it should change in a way, that people can talk to each other without having to fear, that 5 people push each other and throw useless comments at each other. Useless discussions are hard to detect, but Lecic and some other dudes who are thinking that it is usefull to even respond to him, don't understand what is important about a topic and what only seems to be an issue....What booth sides don't see: Discussing the wrong viewpoint of issue A is the real problem.

You seem to have a bloated sense of self-importance. What makes you think that what YOU consider important is the ONLY thing important? (do take this as an actual question, think about it, and answer it. Please.) Who are you to declare another's viewpoint is wrong?

I suggest that you guys try to read in other forums, and see how stuff gets handled there. There people talk to each other, but when someone disagrees with another, they stop, and the topic isnt plugged by a 3 page long discussion about this or that in the news posts.

I'd say the same back at you. I've moderated and administrated "actually important" forums involving real-life issues, real life science, and in general "not a digital waste of time". This shallow view does not hold up to scrutiny in any of those environments, I don't see why it would here.

HOWEVER. Reinstating NEGATIVE REACTIONS, aka "anti-likes" or "vote down" ala reddit could easily serve this function.
"this post has been hidden due to negative user review. click to view post" system would be a happy middle ground IMHO.

What I want in the end is a nice discussion culture in this forum,

I grok you. I agree with you. This is what everyone should expect and be expected of.

First of all, what a cliché! ...In my european point of view "freedom stops where someone else begins". No need to be illegal to be moderated. Just need to be disrespectfull.

I find this viewpont to be disrespectful. Please get moderated. (does the shoe fit the other foot?)

Spoiler: seriously, this is where this mentality ends up. Just look at germany.

"rights" not so much in this case, but most certainly established decorum if ANY FORM OF REAL COMMUNICATION IS TO BE HAD.

In my mind, being adult come with the ability of respectfull debate. Thats maybe why a lot of companies all over the world tries to establish efficients communications rules. Dont forget that time is a resource. Certainly the most precious one.

You had understand thatI agree with a peacefull moderation when some parts are clearly of bad faith.

Why are you playing a videogame, or discussing about discussing about a video game if your time is so precious?(yes, I wrote "discussing about" twice there, it is exactly what I mean to say)

 

[JumpSuit]

You seem to have a bloated sense of self-importance. What makes you think that what YOU consider important is the ONLY thing important? (do take this as an actual question, think about it, and answer it. Please.) Who are you to declare another's viewpoint is wrong?
I'd say the same back at you. I've moderated and administrated "actually important" forums involving real-life issues, real life science, and in general "not a digital waste of time". This shallow view does not hold up to scrutiny in any of those environments, I don't see why it would here.

HOWEVER. Reinstating NEGATIVE REACTIONS, aka "anti-likes" or "vote down" ala reddit could easily serve this function.
"this post has been hidden due to negative user review. click to view post" system would be a happy middle ground IMHO.

I grok you. I agree with you. This is what everyone should expect and be expected of.

I find this viewpont to be disrespectful. Please get moderated. (does the shoe fit the other foot?)

Spoiler: seriously, this is where this mentality ends up. Just look at germany.

"rights" not so much in this case, but most certainly established decorum if ANY FORM OF REAL COMMUNICATION IS TO BE HAD.

Why are you playing a videogame, or discussing about discussing about a video game if your time is so precious?(yes, I wrote "discussing about" twice there, it is exactly what I mean to say)

100% agreed. especially with the:

HOWEVER. Reinstating NEGATIVE REACTIONS, aka "anti-likes" or "vote down" ala reddit could easily serve this function.
"this post has been hidden due to negative user review. click to view post" system would be a happy middle ground IMHO.

That would be nice if a downvote system was added, would make for actual REAL voting about a post truly allowed and not this limited rated bs.

 

[Thingie]

I thought I may as well jump in here.
First off the majority of post I see are pretty damn on topic but there are currently only two smd staff on duty both of which live in the same time zone so we don't see everything, we also both work.
We rely on the community to report stuff as we can't go through every post every day.
If you made a thread and want it cleaned just report it and we are happy to help.
Don't like how someone is derailing your or another person's thread, REPORT IT.
Some people use the report function alot and we love those people. Part of the problem is people not reporting or letting us know there's an issue, can't fix something we don't know exists.
If you don't want to report something but want us to know there's an issue pm Cru or I.
We don't bite and are happy to help.

The other issue we have is that I report to crusade, his pretty great in terms off a boss, but he reports for the forum owner who isn't clear about anything and no matter which way things are handled cru gets told to do things differently.
So please keep that in mind. If cru and I had clear cut instructions that didn't change every time something happened there would be alot less issues.
We are in the process of trying to fix this though so please give some time.

 

[JinM]

I now quote the messages from which I think that they add nothing usefull to the discussion:

Spoiler

I knew it was time we were due more forum drama.

This is assuming any such discussion would be read, or even noticed by any of the members of the schine staff[el].

I still have some faith in the Starmade community, I'm afraid.​

I now quote a message from which I think that it just states something that allready has been said 3 times:

Spoiler

I haven't voiced my opinion much on starmadedock, but that will change as I see all kinds of bullshit from this, that, and the other. I ain't going to let someone control the way I speak or think about how things should go, but my opinion, YOUR opinion, and that guy's opinion (in general lol) matters if they choose to speak on the topic.

So you guys get an idea what I am talking about. I would not go so far to allready delete such comments here in our little talk, but I think to state an good example, when we had a heated topic with like 30 replies, this are the kind of messages that should get deleted. As example when we try to talk about the new power change.

And now tell me pls where someone gets censored if it gets handled like that. I am fully aware of Diremages point of censorship and I agree that a forum is for discussion like Jake Lancia said. But as a matter of fact I am on the side of Excelsiors statement, that some highly idealistic words get used like a cliché.

I just want to remind you again, that for the readability of more heated discussion, I would love to have some stronger moderation.

And I liked what Lecic said. :D

I've read what you stated Dr. Tardis. And I have to tell you that your question is a very suggestive one: Do I think I know whats important or not in a discussion? Well. I don't think I know everything in general. But I think that repeated opinions should be moderated in this forum. Here is my answer:

I think it's pretty save to say, that any comment on a discussion is not important, if it doesn't add anything new to it. Or if it just reheats something that allready has been said, be it an opinion or their disagreement.

And I think doing so will make some harder discussion on this forum way easier to read for other forum members, and maybe attract more people to Starmade in the long run.

But honestly I would just delete the second half of your post after your reddit system suggestion, as it is very emotionally written and even contains memes.

To the reddit system: We are not that big of a forum, and I think this system isn't that cool. It only works with good moderation, and also some important opinions sometimes get lost as they just have no votes. I think the reddit system is great for very big communities. Still you loose the classic conversation style and I like the old style where comment B comes after A. Anyway: I think the reddit suggestion is a far stretch. Rewritting the forum software is way harder and maybe even unrealistic. But that the mods here do their job with a little different approach is a realistic suggestion and can be realised in a matter of weeks or days.

 

[Lecic]

I thought I may as well jump in here.
First off the majority of post I see are pretty damn on topic but there are currently only two smd staff on duty both of which live in the same time zone so we don't see everything, we also both work.
We rely on the community to report stuff as we can't go through every post every day.
If you made a thread and want it cleaned just report it and we are happy to help.
Don't like how someone is derailing your or another person's thread, REPORT IT.
Some people use the report function alot and we love those people. Part of the problem is people not reporting or letting us know there's an issue, can't fix something we don't know exists.
If you don't want to report something but want us to know there's an issue pm Cru or I.
We don't bite and are happy to help.

The other issue we have is that I report to crusade, his pretty great in terms off a boss, but he reports for the forum owner who isn't clear about anything and no matter which way things are handled cru gets told to do things differently.
So please keep that in mind. If cru and I had clear cut instructions that didn't change every time something happened there would be alot less issues.
We are in the process of trying to fix this though so please give some time.

I was planning on leaving this topic alone beyond ratings after my initial post because I didn't expect the moderation to actually take this garbage seriously.

Oh well. Enjoy your censorship shithole.
Edit: Example of an offtopic or non constructive post. Would normally be removed on other threads.

 

[Nauvran]

I now quote the messages from which I think that they add nothing usefull to the discussion:
I now quote a message from which I think that it just states something that allready has been said 3 times:So you guys get an idea what I am talking about. I would not go so far to allready delete such comments here in our little talk, but I think to state an good example, when we had a heated topic with like 30 replies, this are the kind of messages that should get deleted. As example when we try to talk about the new power change.

Spoiler: So basically?

Edit: Example of an offtopic or non constructive post. Would normally be removed on other threads.

 

[Aesthetics]

I now quote the messages from which I think that they add nothing usefull to the discussion:
I now quote a message from which I think that it just states something that allready has been said 3 times:So you guys get an idea what I am talking about. I would not go so far to allready delete such comments here in our little talk, but I think to state an good example, when we had a heated topic with like 30 replies, this are the kind of messages that should get deleted. As example when we try to talk about the new power change.

And now tell me pls where someone gets censored if it gets handled like that. I am fully aware of Diremages point of censorship and I agree that a forum is for discussion like Jake Lancia said. But as a matter of fact I am on the side of Excelsiors statement, that some highly idealistic words get used like a cliché.

I just want to remind you again, that for the readability of more heated discussion, I would love to have some stronger moderation.

And I liked what Lecic said. :D

Except they do. Replies to a discussion are not exempt from critique and further discussion simply because you don't like it occurring. That's not how discussion works. Anything posted in a thread, whether you like it or not, shall be, and I will ensure it, subject to debate. Be it the original post, a reply to that post, and so on. The flow of discussion cannot be interrupted unless there is a breach of rules, which here, there has been none.

Throughout the entirety of this so-called discussion you have came off as pretentious, arrogant and frankly, toxic. Your sad advocation for unnecessary censorship of opinions you feel are invalid is despicable, and I believe are more harmful to the community than allowing discussion to merely carry on. Yes, there should be a line drawn between discussion and literal shit-flinging, but you have drawn the line too close, and when that happens I, and many others I speak on the behalf of as they may now see it futile to reply here, will be most displeased. ​