Why exactly is power broken?

    Raisinbat

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    Lecic what are you talking about? Heatboxes are goddamn brilliant.
    Finally I can go completely nuts with internal roleplay aesthetics and it can even benefit the ship now that heatboxes are a thing.
    Look at the picture, awesome guy you.

    Y0u make interior, we make floating disconnected balls with a fraction of your mass that are incredibly hard to hit.
     
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    Drybreeze

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    Seems to me that the same people saying "we want to have to place fewer systems, it's boring" are the same people saying "don't want filler blocks" are also the same people want to make huge ass pvp ships.

    So which is it? You want big ships with lots of power without having to plop a gazillion blocks? Or you want more complex and interesting design choices for systems? They're opposites.

    If you don't want to use fillers then don't. Think of the heat boxes and the systems they relate to as a cube of the current blocks. Pretend there's no spaces to fill with fillers. Stop being so damn aggressive about it. These guys are working hard for years to make an awesome game better. Pull your head in and work with it. Clearly, like pretty much everything in life, this is going to be a compromise where not everyone has it entirely the way they'd prefer.
     

    Raisinbat

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    If you don't want to use fillers then don't. Think of the heat boxes and the systems they relate to as a cube of the current blocks. Pretend there's no spaces to fill with fillers. Stop being so damn aggressive about it. These guys are working hard for years to make an awesome game better. Pull your head in and work with it. Clearly, like pretty much everything in life, this is going to be a compromise where not everyone has it entirely the way they'd prefer.
    Oh look another truly great guy joins the frey! Weird how its always the RP side getting what they want while PVP continues to be an after thought. You are a super guy. Heat boxes aren't solid, bullets pass through them. If you dont put blocks there you wont take damage, but thanks for your incredibly insightful input that schine are in fact making the game better by making it worse! Good job!(y)

    I just finished designing my heatbox ship, do you like how the future looks?

     
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    Weird how its always the RP side getting what they want
    It's because we are the morally and ethically superior side in this and therefore have the right of having the priority in updates and game balance. Maybe you should look into a mirror and think for a long time where you go so wrong in life as to lose your temper over a videogame, hmmm?
     
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    Crashmaster

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    Seems to me that the same people saying "we want to have to place fewer systems, it's boring" are the same people saying "don't want filler blocks" are also the same people want to make huge ass pvp ships.
    This assessment is incorrect. The people who want to have to place fewer systems to make it easier for themselves to do what they want are the same people who want filler blocks/empty space enforced on others' builds to stop them from doing what they want. Also huge ass ships are more typically RP then PVP.

    If you don't want to use fillers then don't. Think of the heat boxes and the systems they relate to as a cube of the current blocks. Pretend there's no spaces to fill with fillers. Stop being so damn aggressive about it. These guys are working hard for years to make an awesome game better. Pull your head in and work with it. Clearly, like pretty much everything in life, this is going to be a compromise where not everyone has it entirely the way they'd prefer.
    My simple problem with the heat boxes is they are an anti-sandbox construct that essentially says, 'you are not allowed to play/build how you want within this arbitrary box-shaped area of your ship. You must play with this defined area of the ship you are building the way we want or do nothing/garbage with it. It reduces the percentage of freedom in design for what has been repetitively shown to be no gain or benefit towards the issues commonly brought up.

    edit; I want to add a comment on the fallacy of balancing;

    "There is no point in balancing differing build styles for an equal mass, size, shape or block number because there is no balancing the differing mass, size, shape or block number of the random ships that happen to come into contact with one another."
     
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    It's because we are the morally and ethically superior side in this and therefore have the right of having the priority in updates and game balance. Maybe you should look into a mirror and think for a long time where you go so wrong in life as to lose your temper over a videogame, hmmm?
    im not often nor will i do pvp. but despite his anger he has a point.

    the pvp side of this game has repeatedly been destroyed(or impacted greatly) by updates. there is no point to this game, nor will there be for a long time, outside of building and pvp. and the more updates the RP side of the game gets, the PVP side dies off more and more. the focus on making RP ships better over combat ships(Which is all i see this heatbox idea as) is silly and needs to stop.

    The rp side is neither morally or ethically superior. all you are are more smug and calm, and often times more rude sounding because of it. both sides are assholes to each other, and neither side is willing to listen to the other, just like the united states party system. you also troll the other side far more often.

    *if you arent trolling with this post, i apologize, but ive read the entire thread since its start, and i see the RP side being just as bad if not worse than the pvp side.*
     
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    Master_Artificer

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    I think we should have crew first which would include a reason to have interiors, before adding new power which (while trying to force interiors) would include a reason to not place your reactor inside of your ship at all.

    Ithirahad makes cool ships and all, but I don't want every ship to have giant blue balls disconnected from it "floating" around.

    -----EDIT-----

    I guess I should clarify my point a bit:
    I think we should wait until we get crew, even if in some limited simplistic or basic form, first before talking about needing to overhauling power to address current problems in the game.


    If we do power first Criss then later it turns out crew fixed everything anyways and we need to change power a third time, its kinda inefficient.
    [doublepost=1489955861,1489955349][/doublepost]Oh and thanks Criss for keeping a cool head and not locking the thread even through it was getting a little heated and rough back there.
     
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    Seems to me that the same people saying "we want to have to place fewer systems, it's boring" are the same people saying "don't want filler blocks" are also the same people want to make huge ass pvp ships.
    seems to me very much misunderstood most of what you read.
     

    Drybreeze

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    Oh look another tard joins the frey!
    "Fray".

    Weird how its always the RP side getting what they want while PVP continues to get shat on. How about reading the fucking thread moron?
    Sorry, who's getting shat on?

    Heat boxes aren't solid, bullets pass through them. If you dont put blocks there you wont take damage, but thanks for your incredibly insightful input that schine are in fact making the game better by making it worse! Good job!(y)
    Thankyou. :)
    ...So what you're saying is you'd like to have armor or hull blocks in those voids to block passage of weapons?
    Cool. I agree. Lucky for you that's what Schine is considering implementing.
    However if you don't want to have "junk blocks" taking up your mass... go the void.
    You wanna keep the cake or you wanna eat it?

    I just finished designing my heatbox ship, do you like how the future looks?
    It's nice but you might want to consider adding a little bit of relevance and maybe rearrange the connections to reality slightly to minimise your resistance to changes that are blown WAY out of proportion. Anything that brings a bit more realism to this game is awesome.
     
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    I guess I should clarify my point a bit:
    I think we should wait until we get crew, even if in some limited simplistic or basic form, first before talking about needing to overhauling power to address current problems in the game.


    If we do power first Criss then later it turns out crew fixed everything anyways and we need to change power a third time, its kinda inefficient.
    I think the crew game mechanic will implemented last. They clearly stated that they have other priorities atm. I don't know in which topic this has been written, but somewhere in this forum they cleared this crew missunderstanding.

    Btw. I really admire how people get called tard, retard and more in this thread. Could you guys pls just press the report button if you find someone crossing the borders? I really don't care if someone is right or wrong if he acts like a dick towards people who just want to talk instead of harassing each other.
     
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    I really don't care if someone is right or wrong if he acts like a dick towards people who just want to talk instead of harassing each other.
    i respect your opinion; however i personally will continue to speak with someone who calls me a tard if the information theyre presenting is new to me, or has merit. i find people call me names in 2 situations. 1) theyre idiots with nothing better to say, and 2) theyre very intelligent and frustrated with me for my lack of understanding. when i run across scenario 2, i really, really dont mind being called stupid. im more interested in understanding my environment and the people in it than cuddling with them. this is of course... just my opinion.
     

    Criss

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    Criss Any idea aprox when a wild devbuild with the "heat system" appear?
    I haven't the faintest clue. Schema is working on lot's of bugfixing at the moment. He may have worked on the power proposal but I doubt it's been his focus.
     
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    Az14el

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    Editing the older posts is fine by me as well, as the ones you did edit went off the rails from my original "hey block damage actually matters" argument. And editing out the explicit swearing is of course fine by me too, but can we not change the actual message of my argument to the exact opposite? I don't see a rule against voicing an opinion, and simply editing them to contradict myself when there's an established rule that i can't edit them back is not exactly sporting.
     
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    alterintel

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    Editing the older posts is fine by me as well, as the ones you did edit went off the rails from my original "hey block damage actually matters" argument. And editing out the explicit swearing is of course fine by me too, but can we not change the actual message of my argument to the exact opposite? I don't see a rule against voicing an opinion, and simply editing them to contradict myself when there's an established rule that i can't edit them back is not exactly sporting.
    Sorry about that. Changing the meaning was not my intent. If I did, send me a PM about what it's supposed to say and I'll change it back.
     

    Groovrider

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    Um... People that don't RP still have interiors because its nice, it can make it easier to find stuff/access logic and fix crap when it goes wrong. Just saying.
     
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    2) theyre very intelligent and frustrated with me for my lack of understanding. when i run across scenario 2, i really, really dont mind being called stupid. im more interested in understanding my environment and the people in it than cuddling with them. this is of course... just my opinion.
    Yes and no from my side to that: Example 1: If I get called an idiot at work for doing something repeatedly wrong - ok.
    Example 2: If we call each other idiots daily at work not for fun but because that is the language we got used to for each other when we have the simplest problem.

    There is ofcourse the respectful talking on the one hand for me, and yes I can ignore that if the other person is in a special situation.
    (Even though I am not sure if talking about a game mechanic is something that can in any way a bad situation for someone - it's not like Starmade could be ruined for anyone. There are real ways to ruin a game (pay to win, focusing on popular features instead of stability). And even if: We know that the devs do care for it and said they are open to reverse bad changes.)
    On the other hand, and this fact is the one that matters to me, is that this "swearing" language goes down to a very shallow logical depth where people start talking more populist and also influence others by getting them sworn in into a not-so-mature conversation style. And it's not the swearing and offending in this style of conversation that makes talking hard, but the danger of unprecise words and shallow argumentation lines that get hidden behind wrong words.

    So it depends if I am open to listen: On the situation of the person in front of me and the importance of the topic we two want to improve.
     
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    11 pages...I'm a bit late to this party. My personal view on power, for as long as I've been playing the game, is that the current system just never made sense from any kind of realistic perspective. I can't think of any existing, or sci-fi, scenario in which ship's power production comes in the form of long lines threaded throughout the entire ship from bow to stern. The checkerboard requirement that results from the mechanic also leaves players trying to fill in the gaps; so that you have long lines of shield or capacitor blocks (typically.) These long lines also mean that any physical damage that the ship takes is likely to impact overall power production, and players spend time digging through the entirety of their ship looking for missing/damaged power blocks buried throughout.

    Lastly, the current need for power in long lines has some of the greatest impact on the shape and appearance of any ship in the game. It restricts the design of ships by creating a need for the ship to be long in at least one dimension in order to achieve the best power output with the least number of reactor blocks. For all the impact on design, it doesn't provide anything useful to the ship's aesthetics. If I want to interact with my ship's reactor as a crew member, it's all make-believe. I mean, I can put together some decorative blocks with some glowy bits to look like a reactor, but it has no real function in the game. I may as well write "reactor" on the side of a cardboard box and make "beep-boop" noises.

    So hear we have the opportunity to replace one of the more immersive breaking components of the game with something that is more efficient in size and shape, provides more function, and delivers more immersive game play. The new system allows me to place a reactor in a suitable location that won't dictate the overall ship design. If I suffer a power loss, I can head straight to the reactor to begin repairs. As a role player, I will enjoy being able to have an actual working engineering section with access to the reactor rather than just some decorative blocks.

    There's something else that I hope stems from the reactor change - crew viability. I have at least one friend for whom the game's success hinges on whether the game provides a real need for crew on a ship. That is, any ship will perform better when there are more players operating on a ship, and those players feel like they are necessary and useful for the entirety of their stay on board. That means that they are more than just boarding party defenders or manning a turret during combat. That they are more than just passengers that wander a ship's corridors while one player flies and fights the ship. A new reactor-based system will not alone achieve that, but I hope that the developers will put some consideration into what may be achieved in this regard with the new system. Assuming that a reactor system can be made readily accessible by players, it would be an added bonus if that reactor could then be manipulated by them - adjusting the amount of power to various systems, or balancing coolant levels ala "Archimedes: Bridge Simulator" and "Pulsar: Lost Colony."
     
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    On the other hand, and this fact is the one that matters to me, is that this "swearing" language goes down to a very shallow logical depth where people start talking more populist and also influence others by getting them sworn in into a not-so-mature conversation style.
    some of the smartest people i know curse a lot and act immature, and good results can come from heated arguments. probably because emotional investment of the parties involved. but i understand your perspective i think. we will probably not have much conversation. =D

    The new system allows me to place a reactor in a suitable location that won't dictate the overall ship design.
    i 100% agree with your ideal here; but... this is not the case. it will still dictate your ships overall shape if you care to be efficient or powerful, its just a more masked way of dictating your shape. you could argue, well i dont care about being efficient or powerful, but in that case the current system can be made to fit 1-2m e/s into a pretty small cube form factor at an efficiency loss.

    i do agree about immersion breaking. although we have a long way to go before this game is at all immersive. a step in the right direction i suppose.
     
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    some of the smartest people i know curse a lot and act immature, and good results can come from heated arguments. probably because emotional investment of the parties involved. but i understand your perspective i think. we will probably not have much conversation. =D
    And if I don't swear I am not emotionally involved?

    It's totally fine to swear - but how you do it is important. If I tell a grown man, what he says is bullshit, I can prepare for his fist in my face. If I tell a grown man what the government does is bullshit I can prepare for his beer in my hand. In the first case I sweared towards him and in the second I sweared towards a man not in the room. You allways can use strong language, but have to act careful if you insult someone you talk to or someone (or something like someones fucking bullshit car) who is not involved in the conversation. There are studies around that say that people who swear a lot are more trustworthy. It's about how you talk bullshit. =)

    But I, for my part, experienced, that people who talk rude alot often enough are jerks. And if I had a personal problem with my friend and we would talk in this bullshit language with each other about it...Well polite talking people don't interact very much with people who talk too rude. I rather have polite and nice people around me, than many "cool" people who swear, but 50% of them are jerks.