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    Why exactly is power broken?

    Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Ghent96, Feb 27, 2017.

    1. kulbolen

      Joined:
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      did i say anything of the sort? no. its a common sense fact that people who are passionate and emotional about things can get heated and say stupid shit. that doesnt mean everyone always does otherwise they dont care.


      you actually dont have to act careful as long as youre willing to accept the consequence of your actions. in this case it may be you no long talking to whoever said something you dont like. theyre probably fine with that though...


      ^ this guy got it right. this is a consequence of acting improperly that he may or may not care about.
       
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    2. Master_Artificer

      Master_Artificer Press F to pay respects

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      guies pls don't get thread locked k thx.
       
    3. Lecic

      Lecic Custom Titles Were A Mistake

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      I find it interesting that RP players, who claim that the current power system encourages doom CUBES, also claim that the system requires ships to have at least one long dimension...

      Actual Translation: Other scifi sources already having a systems mechanic is not a requirement for Starmade to have it.

      His point was that it doesn't matter if other scifi uses or doesn't use our line reactors- the game should be balanced based around what is good for the game, not around what other scifi has.

      I thought it was more of a suggestion that, if the main thing you want to play the game for is interior design and roleplay, you should use something else designed for that (like a doll house) instead of damaging the rest of the mechanics in the game for that purpose, and not an attempt at an attack on someone's "manhood"(???????????).

      Actual Translation: If you were experienced in PvP and meta level system designing like me, you would immediately be able to see the severe negative gameplay consequences that things like heatboxes, ships composed of 90% filler, and what is essentially the return of core drilling would have on combat and ship design.
       
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    4. KiloZulu

      Joined:
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      My response was to the OP, who asked for our opinions, and did not require that I read and adjust that opinion based on the 11 pages of comments it has so far generated.

      Perhaps you should recognize that this game is not what you're looking for. It has been built, from the very start, to be more than a PVP game. Were it only PVP, we would not need asteroids, planets, NPC's, and all the other content that has been implemented and is still to be included. The crew features I suggested in my OP are in line, and mesh well with, those that have already been slated for development by Schine. If this were a PVP game, they would have just created a single-sector arena where players can fight the ships built in creative mode. The opinions that you are, frankly, ranting about in this thread, do not have any reality to the game being developed. Perhaps it is time you take your ball and go home if you don't want to play the actual game and can't play nice with the other players on the field.
       
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    5. Groovrider

      Joined:
      Dec 17, 2014
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      The proposals will bring a much needed... something to the game. Thats a good thing. It will also bring back a form of core drilling by the back door. Thats a bad thing.

      Why is power broken? Well its sort of not in that it gives "bulk" a purpose and taking a hit doesn't cripple your power system. you can create redundant lines that can protect your softcap when it gets hairy. You can put it anywhere you can squeeze it in which is nice as far as creativity goes.

      It is pretty bulky though and yeah it gets spammy and once its in it kind of a dead stick. You can't give them any characteristics other than regen and cap and thats purely about stacking on more. Its decentralized aspect is genius but it makes an odd barrier to the game mechanics in that it goes against expectations from other games (good and bad) but is unique in that no other block shares that aspect.

      Without knowing more about whats coming I cant say what effect it will have on my ship design. I can say that: New player will wonder what we are griping about and existing players will come up with designs of every conceivable shape and size to push it to its limits.
       
    6. KiloZulu

      Joined:
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      Core drilling was the result of the targeting reticle being tied to the core, and destroying the core meant death regardless of the status of the rest of the ship. All they need to do for the reactor system is make it so that the loss of a block or two does not mean that the reactor cease working altogether. That, and the fact that reactors aren't tied to any specific location on a ship means that they don't have to be an easy target.

      That said, it makes real sense that destroying the reactor on a ship would result in power loss and/or crippling of a ship. There's a reason that auxiliary power and batteries are a thing. If players can't accept the idea of critical systems being damaged on a ship, then we're rapidly devolve to floating health kits and power-ups.
       
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    7. Dvaren

      Joined:
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      This is what you got from, "F*ck your sci fi?"

      (a) No one is arguing that Starmade power generation should be a carbon copy of the systems depicted in other venues. Taking 1000's of examples of those who came before you into consideration is not normally frowned upon.

      (b) If this is his point, he should have stated as such, not resorted to an F-bomb dropping foot stomping tantrum

      Grow up, young man, you do little to further your point of view by labeling me with schoolyard insults.

      You are superimposing your own sense of reason over the ramblings of another poster, who presents himself as an angry child. I'm sure you are quite aware what his intent was when he instructed others to go play with their doll houses. Also, few are interested in solely interior design and roleplay. At most, some will lean further to one side than the other. It is not "us versus them". I build solely for PvP and efficiency, yet I still spend a phenomenal amount of time on cosmetics, for instance.

      I am quite experienced in PvP, my designs are among the most complicated and logic riddled on my server, and I am quite aware of the issues with heat boxes and such (I am no fan of heat boxes whatsoever). The original poster assumes that he is the be-all end-all of pvp knowledge and incessantly denigrates the knowledge and experience of others without justification. I pointed out his ignorance and overinflated sense of self worth.

      You are defending infantile and insulting behaviors on this forum for no other reason than you happen to share specific viewpoints with the offender. Why? Is there not a plethora of other posters here who agree with you and do so in an intelligent and thought provoking manner?
       
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    8. Crashmaster

      Crashmaster I got N64 problems but a bitch ain't one

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      I thought Rasinbat's points came through just fine already knowing what has been discussed so far in this thread. Your entire (now conveniently deleted) 'translation' post was intentionally troll-y though and I think you're still at it with such gems as;
      A thin veil over insults does not constitute the moral high ground. We're all in the same cess-pit here. If you are indeed, 'no fan of heatboxes,' what is the point related to this discussion that you are arguing contrary to the people who also hold that same opinion? I'm pretty sure even Raisinbat has agreed in one of these threads that his posts are harsh, so it's not that.

      Lots of people have made justifications for power-changes with reasoning based in their specific sci-fi favorite. No-one suggests carbon copies.

      He can state his point however crassly, imprecisely and ineffectively as he wants. People are free to ignore it or ask, 'what the hell?' but it is bad form to re-state it in such a way as to twist the meaning, put words in his mouth and denigrate his character and opinion especially when you presented nothing else of any merit. The point that non-StarMade sci-fi should not overwrite StarMade has been made so often one would hope it would be recognized immediately as a main tenant of 'our side's' collective opinion.

      Look, your counter-argument has nothing to do with what Lecic posted. The sci-fi argument was brought up as a point that StarMade's power generation system was not similar to any sci-fi setting and for that reason was immersion-breaking or illogical and should be changed regardless of balance or meta-building concerns. I maintain that this view should have no bearing on how StarMade is balanced because StarMade is not a simulator for other Sci-Fi's. The reasons it should not try to do so have been covered better elsewhere.
       
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    9. AtraUnam

      AtraUnam Maiden of crashes

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      Can everyone please stop arguing about what is essentially a non-issue? Raisinbait and myself are on completely opposite sides of this argument and even we were able to agree that it is currently very possible to build a highly effective PVP ship while still having a good interior.
       
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    10. Scypio

      Joined:
      Sep 18, 2014
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      Dude, i don't need a nav marker to drill through any ship with a decent weapon. Escpecially if i can find it easily, it's fine, there is plenty of interior around your power reactor so i'll find out where to shoot easily.
       
      #230 Scypio, Mar 21, 2017
      Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
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    11. Master_Artificer

      Master_Artificer Press F to pay respects

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      The problem is people in PVP love to win. they make a ship, and test it against another one of roughly equal size, then see if they can beat it, whoever loses is going to try and win the next time, so they either optimize or go slightly bigger (usually a bit of both). Fight again, and cycle repeats. Then you have a very few select people that make a big ass ship. When ones faction's faction-mate unveils their big ass ship, everyone in an opposing PVP faction freaks out and goes though everything they have seeing if they can make it. They can only counter it through numbers or a bigger better ship. This happened in real life with warships from the 1890's through the 1940's, with several nations spending vast sums of money (trillions adjusted to our time over the 50 or so years) to keep up, with some ship advances, like HMS dreadnought, completely obsoleting fleets of ships before it and resetting the score.

      This doesn't happen anymore in star-made, as we had advanced to the limit of the engine a year or so ago. Their are already huge monsters of ships out their, no matter how optimized or impressive your ship its not good enough. Thankfully now we have fleets, and a dozen or so 20k mass ships can cripple lone titans due to numbers and the power advantage. But for one on one fights, people feel like they have to build big so if they go to show off their ship, they are still relevant.

      If you make a system where you give us filler blocks and then say "place them if you want, its up to you", and they are ever so slightly better than not placing them, then you didn't give us a choice at all. All it takes is for someone to "game" the system, and if you don't follow suit, you handicap yourself, your ships, and your faction friends. It's not a choice about "well then just don't do it", because when someone else will, you follow suit. If you enjoy combat and enjoy winning that is. Why would you spend huge amounts of time to lose after-all?

      Hey I'm sure plenty of Americans would of loved it if our military hadn't of spent so many billions on the F-35, but it follows this same logic. If your not absolutely pulling all the stops and putting every advantage you can into it, why bother when it comes to pvp?
      You see pvp ships with interiors, large ones that is, and the interiors are around the core and the outside. You want to impress people with what you built, you spent many days/weeks/months on it after all, and the better it looks the deadlier it is :-p. So interior around the core is sensible, as long as it is kept small, and you see interior around the outside because of spaced armor for missile explosion radius. Why not decorate it for extra show? the better it looks the deadlier it is, and the more coveted a prize.
       
    12. kulbolen

      Joined:
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      aside from the hypocricy in a lot of your statements where you stooped to the same level you were criticizing... i actually agreed with a lot of your post, except this bit here stands out pretty harshly.

      i have personally witnessed an us vs them mentality. you may not see it, but that doesnt mean it doesnt exist. it is pervasive throughout this community. im sure ill be called biased for making this observation, but i find the rp crowd to be much more vocal in their hatred for pvpers than the other way around; maybe thats just because most of my friends playing this are in the pvp crowd....

      but heres why i think i see this from my perspective:

      the "rp crowd" is quick to call me all kinds of names, hacker, cheater, exploiter, shitty builder who relies on pvp for validation, etc... (my nickname on several disc servers now is "that guy with hacky bullshit") but most of my ships have rp elements in them that the rp people either ignore or are quick to criticize my lack of building skill compared to them, etc. (i thought looks were subjective folks, i like my interiors)

      on the other hand, the pvp crowd doesnt call me an rp carebear, shitty pvp builder who relies on rp for validation, rainbow flavored unicorn interior designer, (outside of jokes) even though i have some full on rp ships with tons of useless logic, display fluff, and rail doors/elevators etc.

      maybe its just because i can still put up a good fight, but nearly all the criticism and hatred directed at me has come from one direction, and ive seen it with others, too.
      --- Updated post (merge), Mar 22, 2017, Original Post Date: Mar 22, 2017 ---
      this is of course wrong, but without a qualifer to "not good enough" it hard to talk about specifics.

      this is so obvious im almost ashamed that you have to explain it, it was cringy to read. but youre dead on accurate...
       
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    13. Drybreeze

      Drybreeze Simply complicated.

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      Thank you for an adult response.
      You make some great points and I totally understand what you're saying.

      I also agree completely.

      The point I make is this:
      If we're going to make a more realistic and interesting power system, it should be done by making it more in the direction of realism.

      This means having a power generation system and a coolant system (there are other models of course, but let's look at this one for now), attached with fluid exchange pipes.

      Having a spacing system seems arbitrary to me. To be honest the entire concept would work equally well (I'm sure many would argue that it would work BETTER) without the "heat box" concept. It is a nice idea but let's face it, it is far more troublesome and objectionable than just simply the concept of increasing the complexity of a power generator set up without the heat box penalties.

      HOWEVER, if they insist on having a heat box (or EM field exclusion zone or whatever you wanna think of it as), then I ALSO understand the complaint that it is being filled with unnecessary mass - to a PVP'r my understanding is that every kg matters, so why have mass that serves no other purpose than a very light armor effect. I get that.

      But if you want to avoid huge sections of systems, the solution is smaller more powerful sections of systems, right?
      And if you want smaller more powerful systems, then you also want them to have more complexity and interesting setups which encourage a greater degree of experimentation, right?
      So that EITHER means:
      1) smaller ships, in which case all you've really done is simply reduce the scale of ALL ships in the game for the same system output, OR
      2) you have same size ships with smaller systems within them.

      The first option seems pointless. You've reduced the resolution of the blocks per ship, basically. Yuk. If anything I want to see GREATER detail in skins, not less, for a ship with X dps and Y speed.

      Option (2) seems to be what the devs are suggesting, in which case you either

      2a) space out the systems to fill the previous skin's area, OR
      2b) you have the small cluster of systems in the middle of the ship surrounded by no systems (void or junk), OR
      2c) you simply fill the entire ship (as before) but now because you have more powerful systems you've simply made the same size ship have bigger better systems... inflation, nothing more.

      (2c) is pointless. Why not just increase the output of all existing modules... same net effect except a more interesting time designing the system... so you'd have to make the systems LESS powerful to balance that effect. Yuk.
      (2b) is pointless. With a vast space around your core systems, obviously you'd fill the remaining area of the skin (unless you were forced not to by system output caps), which means that you'd end up defaulting to (2c) - see above... pointless.

      So that leaves (2a) as the only logical solution. Smaller, more complicated, more interesting, and more powerful systems, but forced to be spaced out to have an overall Gross volume something comparable to current systems. This can only be achieved by having systems interfering with each other's output, forcing space between them so that (2b), and therefore (2c) aren't the inevitable end result of the arms race you describe in your post.

      So there we have it. Gaps are necessary if we make smaller and more powerful systems.
      In which case we needs EITHER voids (occlusion problems and a zillion other complaints that have been vocalised a LOT), OR "junk blocks" which help stop the passage of fire, and also reduce occlusion problems leading to performance problems.

      So, really, the inevitable conclusion to all of this is:

      1) Make a more complicated system of power that is LESS powerful per block and so forces the current amount of GROSS OVERALL VOLUME being taken up in a skin to be about the same, OR
      2) Make them smaller, more complicated and interesting to build with, but pad out the distance between them with junk blocks that provide RP'rs with space to do what they want, while allowing PVP'rs to simply fill the area with these blocks so they don't have to worry about all that cumbersome RP crap, and at the same time you have successfully closed the gap between the output of RP built ships and PVP built ships (if done right).

      So in short, what Schine have done makes perfect logical sense to me.

      Everything in life is about balance and compromise... and it seems to me that the devs have made some good choices on this one so far... and even in the face of that are listening and taking on board everything that has been said in response to the suggestion.

      I look forward to what I know will be some excellent improvements to the game, and I'll bet that those that are crying the loudest now will have very little to complain about once it is implemented.

      (Sorry for the essay.)
       
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    14. Captain_Boroski

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      Didn't think I'd see a Nuremberg Trials: My Feelings Were Holocausted boogaloo, but here we are.
       
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    15. Vvolodymyr

      Joined:
      Jan 2, 2016
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      This topic seems to evoke some very negative emotions. Kinda ugly.

      My views are more laid back.
      I don't have strong attachments to previous creations, maybe cos I just didn't make that many, maybe cos I keep on looking for new possibilities and quickly tire of my previous stuff. So that might be part of the thing, just as the dev team correctly predicted from the very start.
      I am attracted to the idea of healthy sportsmanship and friendly competition (healthy PvP) - but people being people, things get ugly fast :(
      I am attracted to cool looking space stuff. My motto "add space and/or scifi to anything to make it better" :) - that's why I'm here.
      I like making virtual stuff - both functional and good looking (the balance is a challenge!)
      When making ships I can't just let the space be wasted, it's gotta be filled in with useful stuff (systems, efficiency, etc) or I'll feel wrong, lol. But I'll also feel wrong, if after being done with systems, I haven't done everything in my ability to make the final thing look good too.

      Now to the Power System.
      The only problem I have now, is the somewhat artificial soft-cap. It's like after 2mil regen , the rules on power design change. Up to soft cap is one set of rules we all know, and above soft cap - the design considerations are different (how you place the power, modular design, aux power etc).
      I feel that it'd be better if there was no such abrupt and somewhat artificial-feeling difference (I mean sub-cap and supra-cap). One smooth increase of difficulty of considerations in power system design with size. I think that is what the dev team was trying to achieve with their proposal. It looks like many things will depend on actual number and formulas rather than the general ideas outlined in proposal. It is difficult to support/oppose their proposal without those actual numbers/formulas. I'm saying - the idea of heat-boxes & cooling systems could totally work for everyone, it all simply depends on details. I am sure the dev team is well aware of this as well.

      But again, to be honest, in sub-soft cap ships - right now there is not much issue with power. There is this weird abrupt change in how one goes about designing power, after the soft-cap (I'm sure everyone here knows why).

      There was a cool solution by the community before - the modular design. And I gotta say - I find modular designs really clever and fun, not just the docked reactors&shields, but any kind of modular ship designs. The problem with that was (as I understandit) ~ docked entities, many cores, lag and in certain situations collisions. I feel if there was no lag problem - StarMade could benefit from allowing (or even supporting) modular designs of any and all systems. I have no idea how this can be achieved - but It got me thinking about the ship cores. I often find myself wondering - 'why do I need another ship core, even if I'm just making a sliding rail door?' I always feel that if I intend to be a part of the ship to be a permanent part of the ship (stuff on rails), then I shouldn't need to have another ship core. If that part of the ship gets blown off, it becomes it's own ship... this seems wasteful and unnecessary. Maybe part of the power solution could be addressed from this point of view? Maybe there could be a .. different kind of core - a "internal component" core or.. (I'm not a programmer).

      But that's just a related thought, since modular design is related to power in this context.

      In the end, I do understand that this is an Alpha stage, and I try to remind myself not to get too attached to anything in the game so far, knowing changes are inevitable. I'm looking forward to new possibilities, so I can keep making & testing & flying & shooting new stuff in a new way :) I feel the dev team has indeed created the game the way it is now - and it IS enjoyable, so I naturally trust them to continue doing the same.

      CheerZ all :)
       
    16. Dvaren

      Joined:
      Feb 4, 2015
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      It was deleted as a result of the post it was responding to being deleted. I had nothing to do with it.

      It was intentionally condescending. There once was a time when childish tantrums were addressed as such.

      I've no need of a thin veil. A turd is a turd and I label it as such. I do not dissect it in hopes of finding a hidden gem of a corn kernel.

      My point was directed at the childish manner in which the issues were being presented and the overinflated sense of self worth of those presenting.

      It was exactly that. Admitting you are behaving as a vulgar buffoon does not shield you from criticism of past and future behavior of the same type.

      Exactly. There is a plethora of past sci-fi, much written by amazing minds such as Asimov, that can be considered when designing sci-fi systems. Not imitated, but considered. Perhaps nothing will come of it, yet that is irrelevant. Simply shouting down consideration of material that has come before smacks of willful ignorance and close mindedness. All ideas should be considered, and preferably, politely.

      Correct. And others are free to respond in a similar fashion and/or point out crass behavior.

      Did he not denigrate the character of others? The opinions of others? Was there not any substance of his post that provided little or no merit? Why was this acceptable, yet "thinly veiled" cynicism in response not so?

      There is a vast gulf between "overwriting Starmade" and taking other ideas into consideration.

      Who brought this point up exactly as you presented it? Who has stated that immersion or logic should supercede balance in Starmade, no questions asked?

      Few, and more likely none, of the opposing side are suggesting that Starmade should be a simulator for other sci-fi genres. You are speaking in absolutes, and therein lies the issue. There is room for discussion, polite discussion mind you, and sharing of ideas. You will experience none of this if either side regresses to name calling, vulgarity, and the shutting down of dissent. I may not personally agree with another's view of the proposed power systems, and I may not agree with the methodology they employed to establish those views, but I am willing to listen to both without throwing a tantrum.
      --- Updated post (merge), Mar 27, 2017, Original Post Date: Mar 27, 2017 ---
      Only in response, my friend, only in response. I've often disagreed with others on these forums, yet was able to express it without peppering the boards with f-bombs and silly caricatures. If another is fighting dirty, I've no issue with a bit of dirt beneath my nails.

      I did not say that this mentality does not exist. My point was that this view....this thinking in solely absolutes....is based on a falsehood. A falsehood that states there is nothing between black and white, 0 and 1, and all must choose (or already have chosen) a side. PvPers and RPers would find much common ground, perhaps, if they resisted in viewing the "other" as the devil.

      Well, in all honesty....that's likely because the PvPers keep turning their creations into confetti..... =) Expect a sour response.....

      That would make them no better that those on our side who behave similarly.

      Well, again for the sake of fairness, you'll likely find less denigration from your own flock that the opposition's =)
      --- Updated post (merge), Mar 27, 2017 ---
      Actually, only one of my responses to Lecic pertained to him attempting to insult me directly. Witty jargon loses a bit of it's edge when it's not applicable to it's target.
       
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    17. Crashmaster

      Crashmaster I got N64 problems but a bitch ain't one

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      In bird culture, this is considered a 'dick' move.
      or being intentionally condescending.
      There was though some substance relevant to the topic in all of Raisinbat's terribly triggering posts. You entered the topic and only made character criticisms without any input to the topic which is not acceptable IMO. Probably the real reason your post was deleted if you yourself had no hand in doing so.

      Two wrongs don't make a right bruh. Sorry I can't be bothered to explain anymore of my previous explanation at this time.

      As this is continuing to be off-topic, perhaps it would be best to continue it here; Definition of HYPOCRISY
       
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    18. Dvaren

      Joined:
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      Again, you misinterpret my intent. I never denied responding negatively to Raisinbat, and in fact, I was quite upfront about my actions. What I find confusing is your willingness to accept his poor behavior, while simultaneously expressing surprise and disdain for the inevitable negative backlash. In my experience, vulgar and denigrating attacks on others are not often met with pleasantry and understanding, but quite the opposite.


      My exhibition of condescending rebuttals were in response to his poor mannerisms and attacks on others, not his underlying ideas pertaining to Starmade, which we might actually hold common ground on. A fellow who tells you to go "F" your ideas is not opening the doors for sharing of ideas, regardless.

      Yes, there was, and nothing I wrote prevented others from sifting through his steaming pile of vitriol to find the golden nuggets.

      True. Perhaps I could have offered rebuttals more attuned to Starmade issues. At the time I found his tone and eagerness to stifle and/or ridicule the opinions of others more relevant than any personal views I had on the subject manner.

      The reason I gave is the exact reason reported by the website itself under my "alerts" located at the top right corner of my screen under the small white flag icon. If you'd like to suggest I am lying, please spare us the "subtlety ."

      Correct. One wrong also does not make a right. I expect you were just as incensed by my opponents vulgar behavior as my own snarky responses.

      Would the condemning of a set of behaviors exhibited in response to that same set of behaviors fall under that definition?
       
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    19. Master_Artificer

      Master_Artificer Press F to pay respects

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    20. GRHayes

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      Ok, I'm entering this conversation a little late so forgive me if I rehash or repeat what someone else says.

      First, you are both right and wrong. The current power system is actually broken on several levels. Even if it was fixed the issue they are wanting to replace it for is primarily it has become nothing more than a block filler and limits the the way ships are built the types of ships that can be built and how much of the interior of a ship is usable. You are though right in the aspect that the current system could be fixed and all those issues remedied.

      The real issue with the current power system beside the programming bugs that exist and other inherent issues has more to do with the fact they used it as a limiter. At some point they felt there needed to be a balance between big ships and small ships. Someone at some point watched to movies where a loan pilot blows up a cap ship. They seem to forgot the other cap ships and fighters tying up the defenses so that ship could get through to hit a vulnerable point. Then there is the attempt to limit giant ships. Because of the way the game is written you could crash someones server if you load a ship to large for it to handle. That is just one negative aspect. Its fixable.

      Now lets look at the new system the reactors and heat system and tanks. The tanks are supposedly to get rid of heat. But we know real space crafts and naval vessels with reactors don't use a tank or heat-exchanger like this because it would be pointless to exchange heat with the interior of the ship. Space craft have insulation to reflect IR away from the ship as best it can. The ship it self is designed to transfer heat to the outside and give it off as radiation/IR. In short we know it isn't to mimic a real ship. So why the tank system at all. Well again this is to take up and use space and limit how large of a reactor someone puts in a ship. In real ships space and Naval power system generally take up less than 10% of a vessel. You do find things like racing boats and others that have more space used by the power system.

      So unless the reactor and tank systems combined take up less than 5% to 10% of the ship not much has changed or will.

      Then I have questions like, "How much of the reactor and tanks need to be intact for it to keep working? Will there be a stupid explosive effect like with aux-power making it not worth the risk? Will the entire thing shut down if one pipe breaks?"
      In short what will the reliability of the system be like vs the current system. The current system are at least fairly reliable.

      The biggest aspect I see that hinders starmade is every time someone uses their brain to make use of a current system in the game and does something they didn't expect,plan for, consider it seems to get labeled a exploit.
      Personally I always thought of sand boxes as a place you give people a set of tools to create with and it is up to that individual to think and solve problems and do what they can and come up with.
       
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