Stifled building in the shadow of an impending update

[Comradecolonel]

Well, in all due fairness, what did you expect?

Building is functional. Systems are functional. We have shipyards to aid with building. Schine has put a LOT of focus and effort into getting the bones of the game good and strong before they start trying to put flesh on them.

If hardcore building is the main thing available, kinda makes sense that its the hardcore builders the game has retained for the long haul.

So what you are telling me is that the combat, economic, npc, and universe systems should be seen as something on top of building? I disagree simply because this leads to circular reasoning. The ships you build would have no purpose if it were not for the other game systems. I think its good to have strong building tools. It is one of the main reasons that I play Starmade. I don't feel like I'm fumbling with the tools in order to get something done (at least compared to other building games). That being said I know how to use actual programs that are made to build whatever I want. I don't need Starmade as a creative tool, I want to play it as a game with a high level of customization and engineering.

That being said I feel that some ship systems are still BARELY functional. Detection functions but is a nonexistant consideration when building. So long as you have the power you can jam/cloak/scan. No considerations are needed beyond that. Pulse is a pretty useless master for weapons. Warheads are pretty much just for trolling people. Jump drives and inhibitors feel gimmicky as most well performing designs will invariably disregard the adding of modules. Just one module per computer and multiply ad infinitum. I hope down the road system design and use will be as creative and rewarding as the aesthetics are.

And today's hardcore builders are going to be tomorrow's Starmade gods because of the massive headstart they've had in learning how to build AWESOME looking stuff.

With how much the game is going to change I don't think any of us are going to be "gods". I'm sure many of our builds will function very differently than they do now as updates go by. On top of that we don't even know how the new systems will work. We might all be designing ships that will be far from optimal once changes come. The grind in the future could make it near impossible to reliably get in titans like we can now. I mean I really could go on and on forever about how the knowledge and skills we have now could be long way from what we may need. I wouldn't bet on the hardcore builders being ahead of anyone in the future.

Still in the future I look forward to teaching new players about the game and enticing them with what I've built so far.

 

[StarHustler]

Most of my building is on hold because I'm waiting for the outcome of 2 major overhauls....

When the time actually comes... There are two things you can do while waiting for an impending overhaul of systems. The first thing is what I do. I build just the hulls and crew areas with all their aesthetic elements for ships or stations and save those as shells to be filled with systems later. The second thing you can do is load up any ship you like the look of, strip out all the systems, and save a shell of it.

I save shells anyways, any effect an update has on their block mechanics usually just makes those blocks better than they were before.

 

[Edymnion]

So what you are telling me is that the combat, economic, npc, and universe systems should be seen as something on top of building?

Yes. At it's core, Starmade is a voxel game like Minecraft. Building ships and stations and things out of blocks is the core gameplay mechanic.

1) You need to have the ability to place blocks.
2) Then you need the ability to make things out of your blocks.
3) Then you need the things you make to be able to function.
4) Then you make stuff to do with your functioning things.

Right now we're at about step 3.25, we're still making the base mechanics of how things work... well work. They're focusing on making the base things work before they start giving us things to use our things with.

You don't go designing the race course until you finish inventing the cars you're going to drive on them.

 

[DukeofRealms]

I'd say there's been a gross miscommunication, then. Bench stated back in an October Devblog that NPC crew had already by that time received a lot of thought, and work was ongoing. It was part of the "RP Season focus," and was a few months away from implementation. NPC crew recruitment, characteristics, management, and crew positions were all discussed.

Direction over the next few months
The next few months are going to be interesting, as we delve into these new aspects of the game. There are features we have planned that aren’t a sort of overnight implementation, and due to dependencies there’s several big features that require other features to go in before it can all really come together and be used in its entirety or as intended.

Our current RP season focus is on Crew Recruitment & Ship Management.

This has been really well thought out by our team over a number of months now, and we’re steamrolling ahead to have it all come together, but implementation is still going to take months.

So rather than leaving the community to umm and ahhh about what’s going on, here’s the planned features for this particular focus.

Ok, so this post was made on October 27th, 2015. Until a few days ago, I had never heard about Crews being our "focus". This is clearly a miscommunication, we certainly did not have Crew on our short term development plans. We likely spoke about it in one of our meetings, or multiple meetings, long distance discussion is quite common.

I've taken a look at the internal draft for this devblog, and I can see it was never passed through our typical PR filters. October - December of 2015 was quite a hectic time, many of us who generally edit and filter dev blogs and news posts would have been away (I was away during that time). So yes, that is a mistake from us there.

I've read through the post, I have no issue with anything in that post, other than the statements that Crew is what we were working on, and that we had planned it. Planning for Crew would be a misleading statement, we likely had a discussion of what we wanted to achieve with the system, no solid documentation. I've done a quick edit of the post to remove misleading information (I might have missed some).

We are currently writing a document of what we want StarMade to be, which won't have any statements on when we plan to work on each part. This document should be more useful.

 

[Neon_42]

I like the discussion in this thread, but honestly I think it's time for Shine to step up their game. We are indeed tired of all the things in progress and that this game has been in alpha way to long. The community is fatigued and atrophied. Servers just are not as populated anymore. Its nice to see that they are making steps towards beta, but it would be nice if we had more transparency on this. DukeofRealms's participation in this thread is a really good example of this. Maybe it is time to bring in more people to work on modules. Try and get people back into the game with fancy updates. I know this is a ton of work but something just isn't right at the moment, and time is not on our side. I'm just spitballing here.

Addendum: I really think they need a killer update to bring interest back into this game. Something that gives ships and factions purpose.

 

[Ithirahad]

A little disappointing, honestly, as NPC crew, chairs, and the AI improvements are really the last defining ship-based features - that we know of, anyway - that need to go in (FTL revamps, capital ship functions, and other things are desired but the current systems are at least functional) but again, it's good to at least know what's going on.

 

[JinM]

Finally I've found some clearing up words about where development might head in the near future. If planets get some nice diversity and maybe also entities that are spawned onto them like stations, the exploration goes to a next level. Because when you can explore for stations and planets, it suddenly becomes very exiting to fly around in the universe. =)

 

[Shaker]

More devblogs, less but bigger updates!!
Forums need a big clean up, clear the power rebalance mess by hopefully saying something about it in the next document/devblog. (We know its going to happen)
Even starting a discussion thread for each stage of development, empyrion devs ask what is the best/worst thing about each element of the game, giving the community something to think about instead of crying over the power rebalance.

This power talk has killed the community, virtually a ghost town on most servers as no one wants to build anything further than a shell... any news will hopefully bring some back
[doublepost=1489115053,1489113044][/doublepost]Something that really needs working on sooner rather than later is factions, player factions are currently basic. Upgrading them and giving more incentive for players to group up will ensure players stay around longer (game friendships) and groups of players will make stuff to do outside of just building, wars/warpgate networks etc.

 

[Comradecolonel]

1) You need to have the ability to place blocks.
2) Then you need the ability to make things out of your blocks.
3) Then you need the things you make to be able to function.

To me these things seem dependent on one another. Look at a feature like build docker. It wouldn't exist if that wasn't need by builders who needed that functionality. How would we know what kind of blocks we would need if there was no world to explore. I would say development has been rather non-linear approach as far as individual features go.

You don't go designing the race course until you finish inventing the cars you're going to drive on them.

This is actually my point about building ships that have no truly defined purpose yet. I know vaguely what my ships will do but the how is still pretty unknown.

Something that really needs working on sooner rather than later is factions, player factions are currently basic. Upgrading them and giving more incentive for players to group up will ensure players stay around longer (game friendships) and groups of players will make stuff to do outside of just building, wars/warpgate networks etc.

I personally think it goes way deeper than that. I think the reason people build mostly is because it is the only consistently rewarding experience. Anything else and you are near constantly dealing with bugs/trolls. On private servers it seems that most people get bored and stop playing. That is except people that build online.

 

[Edymnion]

This is actually my point about building ships that have no truly defined purpose yet. I know vaguely what my ships will do but the how is still pretty unknown.

I personally think it goes way deeper than that. I think the reason people build mostly is because it is the only consistently rewarding experience. Anything else and you are near constantly dealing with bugs/trolls.

I hate to trot this horse back out again, but its still completely true and the most valid explination.

Its an alpha.

We knew going in that it would be light on actual gameplay, because its an alpha. There has been no "truly defined purpose" to ships ever since schine started letting people in as glorified testers and focus groups. We've added some actual gameplay elements, slowly, but they've been added.

---

Hmmm... better way to explain where I see us as being at...

Okay, how about using an MMO example, like World of Warcraft. You're talking about wanting epic quest chains and giant raids, when we've only really gotten character models and the ability to hit things down. We don't really have races or classes done yet, and you can't build a raid around just being able to run, jump, and hit things. You need to know exactly what the players can do and how they can do it before you can start making crazy fun stuff for them to actually do.

If you build content around the way it is now, that means one of two things, either:

1) Whatever you built it around is now 100% locked exactly the way it is, which limits all options going forwards

or

2) When the thing you built it around changes, all the work you put into that content gets wasted because it no longer functions properly under the new way things are done.

Its not fair to say there isn't enough gameplay in an alpha thats not even supposed to have gameplay yet. Let them focus on getting the MECHANICS working correctly and the way they want, then creating content to use those mechanics on will naturally grow from that.

 

[KiloZulu]

Ok, so this post was made on October 27th, 2015. Until a few days ago, I had never heard about Crews being our "focus". This is clearly a miscommunication, we certainly did not have Crew on our short term development plans. We likely spoke about it in one of our meetings, or multiple meetings, long distance discussion is quite common.

I've taken a look at the internal draft for this devblog, and I can see it was never passed through our typical PR filters. October - December of 2015 was quite a hectic time, many of us who generally edit and filter dev blogs and news posts would have been away (I was away during that time). So yes, that is a mistake from us there.

I've read through the post, I have no issue with anything in that post, other than the statements that Crew is what we were working on, and that we had planned it. Planning for Crew would be a misleading statement, we likely had a discussion of what we wanted to achieve with the system, no solid documentation. I've done a quick edit of the post to remove misleading information (I might have missed some).

We are currently writing a document of what we want StarMade to be, which won't have any statements on when we plan to work on each part. This document should be more useful.

Ok, so this post was made on October 27th, 2015. Until a few days ago, I had never heard about Crews being our "focus". This is clearly a miscommunication, we certainly did not have Crew on our short term development plans. We likely spoke about it in one of our meetings, or multiple meetings, long distance discussion is quite common.

I've taken a look at the internal draft for this devblog, and I can see it was never passed through our typical PR filters. October - December of 2015 was quite a hectic time, many of us who generally edit and filter dev blogs and news posts would have been away (I was away during that time). So yes, that is a mistake from us there.

I've read through the post, I have no issue with anything in that post, other than the statements that Crew is what we were working on, and that we had planned it. Planning for Crew would be a misleading statement, we likely had a discussion of what we wanted to achieve with the system, no solid documentation. I've done a quick edit of the post to remove misleading information (I might have missed some).

We are currently writing a document of what we want StarMade to be, which won't have any statements on when we plan to work on each part. This document should be more useful.

Thank you for clearing that up. I am in whole agreement with the OP - I've all but stopped playing the game rather than build ships that may need major overhauls once these updates come out. Make no mistake - I want both the power and the crew update to come out. This isn't a complaint, but just an observation on the current state of affairs.

The simple fact is that until I know how the AI is going to handle hallways, doors, and elevators, how many stations are going to be available, and how much each station/crew quarter will need, I'm hesitant to do much internal design. I also envision some real changes to the design parameters for a ship that uses reactor chambers rather than long lines of power blocks.

I've heard a lot of impatience among players, but my real life friends and I have simply opted to take a step back from the game and wait for the features to implemented. Some of those friends have expressed doubt as to whether Schine will deliver on the crew feature. I'd chosen to believe that the amount of work required for the AI had just pushed back the release date, and that the groundwork was being put down with fleet implementation and the like.

 

[kurosawa]

Shine should not have have open up that much about there plans, clearly the community is not strong enough to be privy to inside information

 

[Ithirahad]

Shine should not have have open up that much about there plans, clearly the community is not strong enough to be privy to inside information

If they didn't there may be no community. To be frank, with no internal information, it would look like the game is going nowhere and I and many others would have left long, long ago.

 

[Panpiper]

The reason I build ships is to master building, that has been "the game" for me. That's really been the only part of the game that actually worked. I want to get really good at systems implementation to the point where a ship I build is a match for any tournament or PvP play. Improving my skills at such building however is absolutely futile if the heart and guts of the build system is going to be scrapped at some point in the not overly distant future. "It's alpha, expect it", does not motivate me to continue, it does the opposite. If I am to expect that everything I learn and master is a total waste of time, I will literally not play. And that is what is happening effectively.

I am still invested in seeing this game work, it still has every chance to be the game I have always wanted. To that end, I still keep a tab to these forum open in my browser and still check the threads. I expect my building days are done however until both the crew and quarters update and the hypothetical power/systems changes are made. (I'll leave aside my absolutely huge trepidation about that.)

Clearly I made a mistake playing a game so early still in alpha.

 

[splatthecat]

I am still building and still enjoying doing so. If the power changes happen I will rebuild my stuff, if it doesn't then I won't.

I was unnerved initially but now I don't care.

 

[KiloZulu]

The reason I build ships is to master building, that has been "the game" for me. That's really been the only part of the game that actually worked. I want to get really good at systems implementation to the point where a ship I build is a match for any tournament or PvP play. Improving my skills at such building however is absolutely futile if the heart and guts of the build system is going to be scrapped at some point in the not overly distant future. "It's alpha, expect it", does not motivate me to continue, it does the opposite. If I am to expect that everything I learn and master is a total waste of time, I will literally not play. And that is what is happening effectively.

I am still invested in seeing this game work, it still has every chance to be the game I have always wanted. To that end, I still keep a tab to these forum open in my browser and still check the threads. I expect my building days are done however until both the crew and quarters update and the hypothetical power/systems changes are made. (I'll leave aside my absolutely huge trepidation about that.)

Clearly I made a mistake playing a game so early still in alpha.

There have been so many changes to ships throughout this game's development that have trashed my ship designs. I've lost entire fleets of ships to the changes, and it was sometimes a crushing experience. The desire to create, however, has lured me back time after time. As well, I was curious to try out the new changes. I've been through enough of these design changes to have seen that, no matter how game-changing they were, they were all valuable additions to the game once implemented. It's hard for me to find complaint given that.

There was a stark change in my approach to the game with the announcement of AI crew. At first I thought it was best to simply stop altogether rather than build a ship that might not work once the changes were implemented. New design ideas pulled me back in, but I've kept to smaller ship builds that would likely be easy to update. The power change, on top of the crew, however, adds a little more mystery than I'm comfortable trying to predict. I still poke around in the game to test ideas, but I'll wait until this all gets ironed out before incorporating those ideas into a ship.

 

[Edymnion]

I just really fail to see why people hate building things so much that the idea of having to build something new just infuriates/depresses them so much.

I'm just sitting over here going "Cool, I'll build stuff now, and have fun now. If/when things change, I'll get to build them all again and they'll be even more awesome because I'll be better at it by then!"

Do people just generally think that they are currently at the epitome of their skill and that there is nothing to be gained from building new, more diverse stuff?

 

[splatthecat]

We can all get a little precious about our creations or whether we play PvP or RP, Local Game or Online, our factions, our enemies, our frustrations with bugs, or "missing" features, or pending updates or whatever.

At the end of the day, it is an escape from reality for an hour or three. In those quiet moments when on a bus or driving to work or walking to school you plan what you are going to do, what your next project will be or how to solve that logic problem that has been bugging you for days. We plan an attack on a pirate station while waiting for our fast food order or striking deals with rival factions while running around the park.

But when all is said and done....it's only a bloody game!

 

[alterintel]

Different people will enjoy different aspects of this game. I for example love tweaking systems and figuring out how to make the most efficient build possible. I don't enjoy the process, I enjoy the end result. So if I know the process is going to change, then I try to wait for a more stable processes before I attempt to achieve a good end result.

You know how people say that the best part of a trip isn't the destination, it's the journey? Well that doesn't apply here for me.

 

[KiloZulu]

I just really fail to see why people hate building things so much that the idea of having to build something new just infuriates/depresses them so much.

I'm just sitting over here going "Cool, I'll build stuff now, and have fun now. If/when things change, I'll get to build them all again and they'll be even more awesome because I'll be better at it by then!"

Do people just generally think that they are currently at the epitome of their skill and that there is nothing to be gained from building new, more diverse stuff?

The game has had nothing much to offer beyond ship building for years now. Personally, I've grown tired of building something just to pan around it a few times before putting it in mothball. I don't build just to build - it has to have purpose beyond that. I'm just sitting over here going, "cool - I'll play another game now, and have fun now. When things progress in Starmade I'll enjoy it in turn."