Has power generation changed?

[MrWiggly]

I had stopped playing for a long time, and have recently come back, i am liking the changes, but i seem to may have missed something with power.

last i played the best way was cubes that have intertwining parts that never touch (if you get my description)
these where hard and time consuming to build.

i had then moved to long lines with power capacitors between them so the long lines don't touch.
this seems to not be all that effective anymore on massive ships.

i recently finished a near 300k block build, and even with 5 huge power bays i still have barely broken even with my thrust and i can forget about any weapons too.

if there a new better way to do power now? did i miss a memo?

i have seen talk of docked power generators, whats the deal with those?

if someone could help me out that would be great so i can build a proper working capital ship.

 

[hzzzln]

https://starmadepedia.net/wiki/Power_Systems

Basically, the bonus you get from building efficient reactor groups caps out at 1000000 e/sec. Any more blocks just increase the power generation of that group linearly. So people started building docked reactors for their really big ships, to still take advantage of the bonus. I've yet to run into this issue, thus I'm no expert on it. For example, I'm wondering why people don't just build another reactor group. Wouldn't that achieve the same thing as docking a reactor?

EDIT: Should've read the whole article:

Consequently, if building a large ship with thousands of power reactor blocks, it would seem the power system should be composed of optimized groups of about 500 to 700 blocks each, this range being close enough to 594 that it does not greatly affect the resulting e/sec produced by a large system. However, there is another diminishing return factor applied to multiple groups within a ship. For example, in the chart above a group of 1000 power reactors, optimally, yields 1003486.0 e/sec, and a group of 500 power reactors yields 615706.3 e/sec. This has been verified in-game with build .1867. However, using two groups of 500 power reactors does not yield double the 615706.3 e/sec value, but only 909558.9 instead. Likewise, 1200 blocks would yield 1025787.6 e/sec, but two groups of 600 only yield 986370.9 e/sec, not double the 755136.2 e/sec of one group of 600.

This diminishing return factor for groups is a soft limit which effectively limits ships to not much more than 1 million e/sec in practice. Consequently large ships are currently either limited to this value, or else use a docked power module daughter-ship and power drain beams to add more power generation capacity to a base ship.

So, to recap: If you want more than 1 million e/sec on your ship, you will have to use docked reactors.

 

[GROOV3ST3R]

The energy bonus cap limits energy generation on the mothership as a whole, meaning that adding another group of generators will act in the same way as simply increasing the size of current systems. No matter how many groups you go with, they are all capped at 1kk e/sec. This is why docked reactors are so popular on capital ships, which have insane power requirements and are not sustainable otherwise.

There is nothing stopping you from adding enough generators to force your ship to generate 10 or 20kk e/sec but it takes up too much space and adds too much mass whereas adding docked reactors allows you to save on that mass. Also, they are much easier to fix if knocked out.
And they are goddamn cool :3

 

[Groovrider]

If we're talking over 30k mass youre going to need a million just to move practically and we're not even taking about jamming yet.

The thing is, recently I've just completed a 40k mass ship with 4.5 million e/sec. Use long reactor lines and/or cubics to get you to 1 million or so regen and just brute force it after that. Don't bother with nice delicate lines after this point. Use the 10x10x10 build area and go to town but remember to not go too nuts. You will have to cover it all in armor at some point.

OR

Get to the 1 million regen cap and go for docked reactors: a 'ship' that has powersupply beams that hit the mother ship and give it power outside of the regen cap. This method is lighter than brute forcing it but comes at the cost of simplicity and a little bit of lag.

 

[MrWiggly]

i cannot seem to find a tutorial on how to build a reactor ship to dock on my next build.

i have a pretty beefy machine so lag should not be an issue.

 

[Edymnion]

i cannot seem to find a tutorial on how to build a reactor ship to dock on my next build.

i have a pretty beefy machine so lag should not be an issue.

Its pretty simple. Build the reactor core like you would for a normal ship. The old box design with the corners cut out works just fine. Build it big enough to generate however much power you want (usually people just build them straight up to 1m e/sec).

Now, you have two options:

1) Capacitors + 1 Power Supply Beam
Power supply beams fire for 2.5 seconds then recharge for 2.5 seconds. So you want to build a reactor that has enough capacitors to store 2.5x the e/sec it can generate (so 2.5 million). Then create a Power Supply Beam that can dump the entire 2.5 million energy in one shot (I actually like to make the capacity be 2.7 million or so to keep a safety margin so that it doesn't bottom out). It will then regenerate to full in the 2.5 second downtime before firing again.

2) No Capacitors + 2 PSB's
Same build as above, but instead of using capacitors you use 2 power supply beams and some clock logic to switch them back and forth. Then just balance it so that the power used & transferred by the beams is exactly equal to the e/sec that the reactor can generate.

I prefer method #1, because it is MUCH easier to build and fine tune. The main downside to #1 is that it's power supply is spiky, you get huge amounts for 2.5 seconds then nothing for 2.5 seconds. So I get around that by building them in pairs, and using a ship based logic clock and wireless blocks to control the reactors. 2.5 second pulse to an activator and a not, one to each pair. Whenever it toggles, one side turns off for the recharge and the other one comes online. Gives a nice smooth power supply all the time.

If you don't mind it being spiky, you should be able to use just a simple little 2 block clock on the reactor itself.

 

[MrWiggly]

ok i followed that p until you mentioned clocks and PSB.

do i set the beams to on before jumping out? how do i get it to keep firing?

also never done a clock, unsure as to how that works.

sorry to be a pain in the rear with all these noob questions.

personally number one sounds good in a pair, but number 2 seems like its worth playing with.
but as said above unsure how to build the logic systems behind them.

 

[Drakkart]

simplest clock is a delay into a not and back into the delay. then double activte the delay and make the delay control your power supply beam computer to keep it firing.
though i prefer the logics with an ACTIVATIONMODULE into an AND and the AND into DELAY, DELAY into NOT and the NOT back into the AND, this way the activation module is the on / off switch ...

 

[Edymnion]

also never done a clock, unsure as to how that works.

Bench has you covered.

 

[Bonusinches]

There's an example of docked power supplies here:

http://starmadedock.net/content/power-supply-unit-mk12.3331/

Shouldn't be too hard to reverse engineer for your own design.

 

[kiraen]

Here's the thread


http://starmadedock.net/threads/i-know-i-can-but-how-can-i-docked-power-reactors.20870/

 

[Mork2]

A couple of things with docked power modules. There are a couple of bugs effecting them still.

T582 docked power module lag. Try to keep a space around the module free to reduce lag produced. That's what I've been told and it does seem to help.

T384 do not design your power core using the assuming that the power supply beam uses 270 energy per tick (0.5seconds) per block. The bug means the power supply beam uses more power than this. Just adjust power supply beam size so your using a lot of energy but not putting the system into power drained mode which disables the power regeneration briefly.

Note when this bug is fixed all power cores will still put out the same amount of power. What will happen is there will be a lot of power sitting in the power cores.​

T340 even though a docked entity can draw power from the mothership if it runs out of its own power it will put itself into power drain mode and stop itself generating power even though it draws the remainder from the mothership. So you don't want individual power cores to run out of power and draw power from the mothership. If badly designed it results in power cores that drain the mothership supply.

This bug also applies for any docked entity including turrets. Won't matter on the small ones to much since you weren't generating a lot of power and it won't come into play until the 50k energy for the core storage runs out. Put one power block into each part so it fills up the 50k storage for the start of the battle.

When this bug is fixed it will be possible to create chained power cores with one set of supply beams on the end. This should reduce lag but if a power core gets killed the entire chain breaks. Less lag more fragile.​

T340 bug also stops you from chaining 20 power cores together and having one big power supply beam on the end. This is an idea to reduce lag but doesn't work since all the chained cores go into power drained mode.

When putting the power cores into power drained mode my module made up of 40 cores was bugging and rotating in the docking bay. This might only be happening because of power drained mode and that I had them chain docked in an attempt to use one large power supply beam.
There is a bug number for this one but I haven't recorded it because its safer to just make sure the power module doesn't go into power drain mode. Also until bug T340 is fixed there is no point trying to build a chained power core.

Edymnion has already covered the two types of power cores. I prefer number 2 as you use a lot less power capacitors but the logic its around 15 blocks and is a little complicated. The size of the power supply beams is the same in block count as the single PSB just in two equal groups. Each one is activated 2.5 seconds after the other. I advise against using the power supply beam with cannon slave. While it does work it seems to generate quite a bit of lag. Okay for a couple of power cores maybe but I'm usually trying to use 80 so lag considerations play a bigger part in how I design my ships.

 

[MrWiggly]

Thank you to everyone who helped me on this.

I present the Duracell Capital Class PSU shuttle. (i had to make it somewhat resemble a battery pack. :P )

the clock is as seen on the side, its the spiky set up mentioned by Edymnion

im gonna try and do the set up where there is a pair firing one after another so there is a constant supply of power.

Specs are;

Power = 2,786,481.2
Power p/s = 1,003,562.7

Its covered in white advanced armor and the clock white crystal armor, so its durable

but they will rely heavily on the host ships shields as they have none of their own.

 

[Mork2]

You can completely enclose it inside the main ship so you can remove the armour. The main ships shields would have to completely go down before anyone could hurt it at that point.

To make it easy to access or replace you just need a railed door or a section you can remove.

With the new shipyards in theory you should now be able to dock it and repair without requiring external access as well.

 

[MrWiggly]

i figured the armor may not really be needed but i felt it looked nicer.
i kinda did the battery thing for a laugh.

im planning on making doors on the ship to have them fly in and out, and making the doors resemble battery covers.
im a fairly casual player that plays on a closed server with friends. when i have a full understanding of the game then i will
start looking for more practical designs.

 

[Tunk]

T340 isn't a bug in my opinion, but a actual feature of the power system working as intended.
T340 is the cause of what I like to call 'cascade power failure', in constant drain applications the power failure will cascade down the docking chain until it hits a entity that can supply enough energy, or drain your mother ship dry.

Pulsed power usage isn't a problem however where the short power failure isn't a issue.

 

[cyberus111]

Is there a reason nobody uses power drain beams on the reactors rather than having the reactors use a power supply beams?

Just curious.

 

[alterintel]

Is there a reason nobody uses power drain beams on the reactors rather than having the reactors use a power supply beams?

Just curious.

mother ships cant hit entities that are docked to itself with power drain.

 

[Edymnion]

T582 docked power module lag. Try to keep a space around the module free to reduce lag produced. That's what I've been told and it does seem to help.

You fix this by using a Rail Speed Controller to set the speed of the rail the reactor is docked to to 0.

The lag comes from the fact that even with only a single rail block, the engine keeps trying to do collision checks to see if the rail can move whatever is docked to it. If you turn the rail "off" with the speed controller, it stops making those checks and the lag from it is eliminated.

 

[DrTarDIS]

I had stopped playing for a long time....if there a new better way to do power now? did i miss a memo?.

If you want up to 1.2 million e/sec, long power lines in the T/X/Z shapes are your friend. If you want over 1.2mil/sec don't build ANY long lines and just checkerboard fill the ship.

->under 1.2 mil/sec "bonus dimension" power is efficient

->over 1.2 mil a sec COMPLETELY UNLINKED SINGLE CUBES have rougly triple the efficiency of any face-touching cubes.

These two build styles are mutually exclusive: the checkerboard type only sees it's efficiency after 1.2 mil/sec, but if you have existing long line power generation checkerboards will not show their efficiency until they finish "killing" the dimension efficiency of the other reactor type, and even then the other type will "kill" the total efficiency because they are missing the single cube bonus.

You fix this by using a Rail Speed Controller to set the speed of the rail the reactor is docked to to 0.

I think you can fix it by changing the rail type once it's in place, try switching to a rotator, or flipping the rail so the face is to a different side. you can always logic-magic it back to whatever else on the fly too.