About faction points.

[therimmer96]

1 or even a couple of invaders overpowering multiple builders of a base?
turrets work when player is offline don't they?
where can you place bigger weapons/turrets? on a base, or a ship that has to move around with those?

As i mentioned earlier, all it would do is players grouping more often, and dedicating more efforts in building functional defenses.
Just becouse they dont do it now doesn't mean its not possible. they simply don't have to.

People like to build bases that look good. Bases that look good cant have the shear size of defenses that you are talking about. What if someone, say Deadlis, came along in his huge Vengeance and shreked the place? Invulnerability is required to protect against that.

 

[kiwionthemoon]

One more thing i want to clarify and its worth a seperate post.

If Starmade creates similar economy / pvp experience to eve that would be very good.
Null sec controling/ economy in eve is alot of fun. these null sec territories are reason for diplomacy and combat.In starmade it could be bases and trritorial control if there was anything to get for controling a teritory.

Starmade will never be eve, people should begin to realise that. The two games are so vastly different it baffles me why people keep comparing them
Lets start with the definitions shall we?:
eve- player-driven, persistent-universe MMORPG set in a science fiction space setting
starmade- minecraft inspired 3D sandbox space shooter
I think the biggest difference is the "persistent-universe" eve has. Starmade is spread over hypothetically limitless servers, this means that unlike eve, these servers are unlikely to ever reach a population in which a system similar to eve would be beneficial or fun to play in. Now while it can be argued that minecraft follows the same server set up as starmade, we must remind ourselves that starmade is in Alpha, and as such does not have the player base to support huge servers (I think NASS at its peak had something like 150 players). What does a player driven economy mean when there are no players to drive it? To have nullsec you need something to be in it. when the average faction on NASS is 1-2 players, thats around 100 bases, spread around 2,147,483,647 systems (thats the max java can handle as of now) that means there will be nothing for anybody to do, especialy considering people like to build bases further away from spawn.
An EVE based economy would just not work, as most players build their own ships and are self sufficient after around a couple days of playing.

Factions are small because of this ridicolous godlike mode. there is no reason for grouping up and building big well defended bases if there is no threat. You are mixing cause with result.

Factions are small in starmade because there are little people playing it. I live to divide the types of factions in starmade into two:
Forum factions (those who are on the forums) generaly have around 10 people (some got to 30-50, but they were counting people who were no longer active). The game is in alpha, there are little people to enlist in these factions.
Server side factions (havn't advertised on the forums) generally even smaller, since the starmade player base is so divided between different servers, and have no advertising venues to people outside the servers.

So, back to the original point: faction bases.
Faction bases are actualy quite broken as of now. The DFN troy base has 6 medusa turrets, each capable of pouring out something like 800k DPS, and, since they are on the homebase, they are invulnerable. The invulnerability of faction bases gives a sense of assurance to people, as they can simply dock their stuff and feel safe. This eventually leads to stagnation and/or inactivity as people find they have nothing left to do/defend.
These are all major flaws, but will be repaired with the faction points update. Your idea would not work, and would just encourage pointless greifing.

 

[FlyingDebris]

pod11-

Coming from experience here, I will share with you why making homebases open to attack is a monumentally horrible idea.

Back on Illusive, before the reset, me and my faction had a base. Its name was Ithaca. We spent weeks building up her defenses, and by completion, the turrets could level a titan in seconds. Then, a traitor by the name of Bradley hired what were arguably the best mercenaries available to attack us. They did this when three of our men were online, and all of our turrets activated. It would have been a simple, easy fight, until they used permajam ships. We had no way to find them, their 300kdps turrets killed the few ships we had on station while we were trying to locate them, and then those same turrets began to spawnkill our men, who were inside the station. Turrets, the fundamental part of your argument, had failed to do their job. There are far too many ways to bypass defenses and destroy a base.



Argument, pt. 2-


During the breif but heated second war between us and Odium, I stumbled on a completely defenseless base, which was not a homebase. I took the opportunity, and crashed the server after about five seconds of firing. The amount of shields they had to use to keep that base decently defended were enough to make the sector virtually unplayable and crash the server when shot.


I have now argued against both of your main points as to why faction homebases should not be invincible.


I heard of a game called Civilization, it has destroyable homebases. Perhaps that's what you wanted. That, or maybe you can go back to Call of Duty. Your pick.

 

[Viridis00]

OP, I agree with most of your sentiments. Now, I don't play servers at the moment, but I sympathize with the notion you bring up, because in other games the same kind of rubber playpen crap has been plaguing games for almost a decade now. What we really need is a good repair system for stations. That way the creative work isn't lost and can simply be repaired with obtained resources, or saved/exported in case of complete annihilation. You take the hit in resources, not time creating that you can't get back.

Wait and see how the faction point thing pans out. Right now it's a bandaged thing, so I can't really complain too much about invulnerable bases. But in the future I hope for more options to allow the dangerous game of risking your resources in battle. Right now, shit is just unbalanced everywhere, so it's somewhat necessary until the game develops. In terms of an endgame stable Star Made, absolutely OP.

The thought of raiding a faction base with some fraction bros and laying waste to it, scarred with missile craters and toppled structures floating in space is something that just sounds awesome and exciting.

 

[whiterhino16]

The second I accidentally abandon my home, its a scramble to re-home it. To make matters worse, my home base is nearby the spawn. Every planet nearby has a mark made by a player. Some with huge craters in them. Also, I only have the resources to have one missile turret on my home base. Do you think that is going to stop some idiot from coming in a capital ship and flattening it? Also, for the record it`s been taking a week and its still not anywhere close to halfway done. I don`t want that to be destroyed.

If some idiot in a capital ship DID come destroy it, I would most likely destroy my computer, quit starmade, and spread the word that its the new roblox. Because that's what it will be, the new roblox. A great game ruined by a horrible community. Its the main reason `Rhino mining` has no stations, because 1000000 credits and hours of my time will do down the drain just to be destroyed.

 

[Viridis00]

Also, I only have the resources to have one missile turret on my home base. Do you think that is going to stop some idiot from coming in a capital ship and flattening it? Also, for the record it`s been taking a week and its still not anywhere close to halfway done.

I find it funny you have the resources to take on a build that's been going on for multiple days, yet you don't have the resources to arm it. That doesn't make much sense.

 

[whiterhino16]

I find it funny you have the resources to take on a build that's been going on for multiple days, yet you don't have the resources to arm it. That doesn't make much sense.

Because most of it is terrafroming it. And that's like saying `NASA has been designing a mars mission for several days, but they don`t have the money to build it`. The two things are nearly night and day.

 

[Viridis00]

Because most of it is terrafroming it. And that's like saying `NASA has been designing a mars mission for several days, but they don`t have the money to build it`. The two things are nearly night and day.

Wait, I thought you were building a station for a minute. So you're moving dirt around a planet and putting a base there, and you still can't put up a couple turrets?

 

[War Dog]

As much as I would like not-invulnerable faction homes; the game just has far too many gaps and exploits for it.

The following need to be addressed before this is possible.
1. AI is easily dealt with. Defending turrets and drones are useless against cloaking ships. That's not even considering ships that can outrange the AI encounter range.
2. The ability to track does not exist. Good luck finding anyone that doesn't want to be found. The best you can do is hope for a slip-up.
3. There is no way to punish attackers that are offline. Meanwhile, your base is a giant, immobile target 24/7.
4. I can (and have) destroy a month of work in a minute. While I can magically replace a ship using the power of $$$; you can't do that with a base.
5. Dying means little to properly prepared players, ships can be saved and credits and items can be stored, and then I can keep coming back for more.
6. Once a base is found, that's it. Ships can be moved away, but once a base's position is publicized expect waves and waves of attackers.
7. There's little reason to build a base at all. I can plunk a bunch of enhancers and power on a planet and that's a factory.

This is only the tip of the iceberg, I haven't even got into exploiting the faction system or the vicious cycle of lag that is an arms race between ever bigger ships and ever more turrets.

If we're going to have any real conflict, base invulnerability as a standard has got to go. But it's just too early to do so now.

 

[Viridis00]

As much as I would like not-invulnerable faction homes; the game just has far too many gaps and exploits for it.

The following need to be addressed before this is possible.
1. AI is easily dealt with. Defending turrets and drones are useless against cloaking ships. That's not even considering ships that can outrange the AI encounter range.
2. The ability to track does not exist. Good luck finding anyone that doesn't want to be found. The best you can do is hope for a slip-up.
3. There is no way to punish attackers that are offline. Meanwhile, your base is a giant, immobile target 24/7.
4. I can (and have) destroy a month of work in a minute. While I can magically replace a ship using the power of $$$; you can't do that with a base.
5. Dying means little to properly prepared players, ships can be saved and credits and items can be stored, and then I can keep coming back for more.
6. Once a base is found, that's it. Ships can be moved away, but once a base's position is publicized expect waves and waves of attackers.
7. Other than decoration, there's little reason to build an elaborate base.

This is only the tip of the iceberg, I haven't even got into exploiting the faction system or the vicious lag cycle of an arms race between ever bigger ships and ever more turrets.

These are all really good points. It'd be nice if faction base coordinates weren't broadcast to the entire server on the faction list. Not to mention the diamond indicators are a pretty bad thing overall for when you want to try and hide something. I wish they would be removed. Then again we'd need a much better map and radar to make up for that.

When it comes to replacing ships compared to bases, I can only wonder if astro-techs will get revamped (I can't remember what was said in the Q&As) and also apply to bases as well.

 

[Firestorm29]

First off, I am wondering just how much the OP understands about how the new faction system works. I really get the impression he doesn't.

The first answer is the size limit is based upon on large and active the faction is. I think this could kill off tons of one-man factions due to not being able to dock much since that counts in part of the equation. Plus, the base becomes down if the base is too oversized or people die too much, which means you must deal with the faction to take their fort. Kinda makes sense since when could anyone just wait some someone to leave their castle with some short-sighted guy at a cannon because they have something else to do?

Plus, as FD and War Dog have pointed out, your God Turrets of Insta-Doom are things are can never live up to it's name as of right now. In order to do that, turrets would have to see farther than 2.5KM, and I remember in NASS there was an area known as a dead zone around 5,5,5 before the server reset. An old faction that was enemy to neutral left their base sitting around and it became a nuisance. Giving that extended range to be even more of a pain in the rear to everyone is NOT a way to solve the problem. Unless you think having almost every sector outside of 2,2,2 being instant death. Not my definition of fun.

I also have to question this hard-core land you're advocating. This kind of environment exists in Day-Z and it's regarded as a giant black mark against the game. There's lots of cool stuff but considering how you have tons of trolls roaming about, you're usually dead about when you spawn. Imagine having your base not get leveled before even getting that God Turret of Insta-Doom fully operational. It's not fun not being able to play the game from spawn camping or defend your stuff because you can't 24/7/365 your game like the New Conglomerate of Planetside can.

Fighting the faction to break a base helps encourage faction on faction fighting since now we have a victory condition, the destruction of your enemy base. Makes the fight and victory worth something other than trying to pick at straws at who won a fight. The only way your method is fun is for those guys who want to feel awesome kicking over their sandcastle when someone else's back gets turned.

 

[whiterhino16]

-Snip-

Could not have said it better myself.
Seriously, My base is STILL being flattened out. Purple planets are freaking monsters in terms of base-building. Looks cool at the end though.

(also, I will stick to my side until I see someone get 8 bobbys, 90 missiles, 8 missile computers, 8 AMC computers, 180 Amcs, 8 turret docking units etc by terrafroming a planet.)

 

[zorozeenee]

Starmade will never be eve, people should begin to realise that. The two games are so vastly different it baffles me why people keep comparing them
Lets start with the definitions shall we?:
eve- player-driven, persistent-universe MMORPG set in a science fiction space setting
starmade- minecraft inspired 3D sandbox space shooter
I think the biggest difference is the "persistent-universe" eve has. Starmade is spread over hypothetically limitless servers, this means that unlike eve, these servers are unlikely to ever reach a population in which a system similar to eve would be beneficial or fun to play in. Now while it can be argued that minecraft follows the same server set up as starmade, we must remind ourselves that starmade is in Alpha, and as such does not have the player base to support huge servers (I think NASS at its peak had something like 150 players). What does a player driven economy mean when there are no players to drive it? To have nullsec you need something to be in it. when the average faction on NASS is 1-2 players, thats around 100 bases, spread around 2,147,483,647 systems (thats the max java can handle as of now) that means there will be nothing for anybody to do, especialy considering people like to build bases further away from spawn.
An EVE based economy would just not work, as most players build their own ships and are self sufficient after around a couple days of playing.



Factions are small in starmade because there are little people playing it. I live to divide the types of factions in starmade into two:
Forum factions (those who are on the forums) generaly have around 10 people (some got to 30-50, but they were counting people who were no longer active). The game is in alpha, there are little people to enlist in these factions.
Server side factions (havn't advertised on the forums) generally even smaller, since the starmade player base is so divided between different servers, and have no advertising venues to people outside the servers.

So, back to the original point: faction bases.
Faction bases are actualy quite broken as of now. The DFN troy base has 6 medusa turrets, each capable of pouring out something like 800k DPS, and, since they are on the homebase, they are invulnerable. The invulnerability of faction bases gives a sense of assurance to people, as they can simply dock their stuff and feel safe. This eventually leads to stagnation and/or inactivity as people find they have nothing left to do/defend.
These are all major flaws, but will be repaired with the faction points update. Your idea would not work, and would just encourage pointless greifing.

Nass holds a maximum of 101 players.

 

[kiwionthemoon]

Nass holds a maximum of 101 players.

Oh right, so that was quite a large over estimation.

 

[pod11]

ok, since discussion seem to have silenced, my question.

Faction points will be implemented, and its planned so that individual player wil lbe able to maintain only certain size of invulnerable base.

How big is that size planned to be?

 

[therimmer96]

ok, since discussion seem to have silenced, my question.

Faction points will be implemented, and its planned so that individual player wil lbe able to maintain only certain size of invulnerable base.

How big is that size planned to be?

As said previously, by myself I believe, this kind of thing doesn't get decided until the update is in development, because of balancing

 

[Zeno9141]

I do believe, that adding the fact bases would lose invulnerability status once they get bigger is a bad idea. It would limit creativity - To make sure their creations are invulnerable, people would build smaller bases. Is it not the purpose of Starmade to have nearly limitless creativity? This would severely limit that.

Adding vulnerability to homebases in this way would be interpreted - and reacted to - the same way as people would do with a mass limit.

 

[pod11]

godlike bases make wars and faction interactions imposible. There are more changes required to make pvp engaging, but 100% unkilable structures would just make real pvp impossible outside set-up friendly duels.

Big portion of players want to just build and im sure pve servers will be avaible for them, and even servers with pvp in just select zones .

faction points is one of features required for those who want a true pvp servers to be possible.

 

[therimmer96]

You do realise it will be possible to remove the homebase protection right? Factions lose points if members die, so that stations wont always be invulnerable, but combats the asses that come along while you are offline. The homebase should be the last stand, the final place you have left, and this helps ensure that.

 

[Lecic]

I do believe, that adding the fact bases would lose invulnerability status once they get bigger is a bad idea. It would limit creativity - To make sure their creations are invulnerable, people would build smaller bases. Is it not the purpose of Starmade to have nearly limitless creativity? This would severely limit that.

Adding vulnerability to homebases in this way would be interpreted - and reacted to - the same way as people would do with a mass limit.

If a person wants limitless creativity, they should play on creative mode in single player or a build server with pvp disabled. They would only lose invulnerability if
a) You died a lot
b) You built it much higher than the number of people in your faction could reasonably support

I think it makes perfect sense for a faction home base to need a certain amount of people to sustain, and if you don't have the people doing that it loses its powers.