Why I think quality is better than quantity in terms of design and tactics

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    In war, whether it's in real life or in video games, the issue of quality vs quantity is often a concern. Is it better to have fewer but better units or to swarm the enemy with lots of cheaper but worse units? While Starmade currently favors only quality rather than quantity because the player can currently only bring one ship into battle (his own), I believe that the quantity vs quality debate will become real once the AI allows us to bring other ships with us.

    I am going to explain why I think quantity is inferior to quality not just in Starmade, but basically any video game where units have to be replaced at an economic cost after being destroyed.

    Basically the argument of those who are pro-quantity is that it is a more economical way of waging war and is a different strategy from favoring quality units. You don't get units that are as good, but you get lots and lots of them! And should they be destroyed, so what? You just produce a new army of them to take their place! Why build 10 X-wings when you can build 30 Tie-fighters?

    Except that there are a number of holes in this doctrine.

    First, let's start by taking a look at the claim that a quantity doctrine is more economical than the quality one. Yes, it is true that a single mediocre ship or unit is cheaper and easier to produce than a better and a more expensive one, but if this means that more of them have to be produced in order to stand a chance against even one stronger unit then it doesn't have to be cheaper or faster to build an army of comparable power that can defeat another smaller but more expensive army. Well ok, but while it may not be cheaper it's still not more expensive right? You just get more ships for the same cost. It's just a different strategy which is neither better nor worse than the quality doctrine right? I disagree.

    There is one massive problem that pro-quantity people forget: That a part of the economic cost of war is not only to build units, but also to replace destroyed units with new ones...

    Because units that are build with a quality over quantity mindset are valuable, those who own them are expected to keep them alive and make the most of them. All the while, those who favor a quantity doctrine are expected to treat their units like cannon fodder and have little regard for their safety. This means the later is more likely to end up paying an economic cost to rebuild his units more often.

    Then there is also the problem of the firepower and defense of quantity units being split between a larger number of more easily individually destroyed ships/units. I will create a scenario to explain what I mean:

    Let's say that you have 2000 firepower and 5000 shieldpower which 2 rival enemies can spend however they want to. Let's call them A and B. Let's say that A decides to invest all of the shield and firepower into one single powerful ship, while B decides to favor the quantity doctrine and builds 4 individually weaker ships and then splits the firepower and shielding between them. Then let's say that the sides fight a battle. Because A has invested all of the power into one single ship, B cannon beat him or make his weaker without taking down that one single ship. However, because B split his power between 4 different ships which are individually weaker to destroy, the moment A has destroyed even a single of B's ships then B's power has been cut by full 25%! This means reducing the overall power of B is much easier for A than it is for B to cut the overall power of A because A has invested all of his power into a single tough unit.

    What this means, is that if 2 sides have the same level of overall firepower and defense, then the side that has concentrated this power into a fewer number of ships will by default have the advantage over the other side even if the overall level of firepower and defense is the same.

    Besides not giving advantage in combat to the side that favors quantity, this also means that while stronger units may be more expensive to produce at first, those who made the stronger units can continue to use them for much longer because they are more able to survive battle after battle while the cheaper units on the other side have to be replaced over and over at regular rates. This means that in the long term, it's actually the quantity doctrine that is more expensive and economically wasteful.

    There is also one other big problem with favoring a quantity doctrine, which is the poor utilization of space and supplies. Regardless of if your unit is cheap or expensive, it has to be able to move between places at a speed and rate that is acceptable during times of war. Fighting isn't the only part of war, logistics are so as well. And this is where a quantity doctrine falls flat on it's face. A single poorly trained soldier still has to be fed just like a highly trained one, and both take up the same amount of space in a transport. And yet, the former brings limited value to an army while the later brings lots. If you want more poorly trained and cheap soldiers on the battlefield then you need to invest in more food and more transports, which defeats the point in the first place, with the end result being that you aren't saving money and just end up with worse soldiers in your army. Though I admit that in video games this can depend largely on the game since not every game has the same kind of supply/resource management. An argument could be made that in the case of Starmade ships taking other ships into battle (carriers) aren't taking proper advantage of their space if they are being used to transport mediocre ships, and that it doesn't make sense to invest in jump drives for poor quality fighters who will just get destroyed anyway.

    And then there is the issue of large armies having to fight in a limited space. I assume you have seen the movie 300? Yea...

    I hope this explained my point :)

    Feel free to give counter-arguments if you disagree.
     
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    CyberTao

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    I don't understand the point of this exactly. I'm guessing you are trying to say something, but I'm not sure what it is in regards to Starmade.
     
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    I don't understand the point of this exactly. I'm guessing you are trying to say something, but I'm not sure what it is in regards to Starmade.
    Starmade will have AI fleets in the future, so some players are bound to start favoring a style of play where they would rather just create a huge pile of bad ships rather than fewer very good ones. My post was basically a thought experiment of sorts that argues against this kind of strategy both in Starmade and video games in general.
     

    CyberTao

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    Starmade will have AI fleets in the future, so some players are bound to start favoring a style of play where they would rather just create a huge pile of bad ships rather than fewer very good ones. My post was basically a thought experiment of sorts that argues against this kind of strategy both in Starmade and video games in general.
    Starmade is not Quality vs Quantity though, personal AI fleets would probably be limited to 5 NPCs (or a configurable limit).
    In Starmade, it is Quality versus Quality really, if you do not have a properly set up array of weapons and defenses, expect to be curbed stomped by something smaller. Even in quantity, people go for quality.
     
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    I think the guys in the drone R+D thread would disagree with your quality v quantity analysis
     

    Mered4

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    True, we like quality AND quantity!
    Yeah, but there is a block count where systems start being much less efficient than smaller, more numerous ships.

    10 100 mass ships will defeat a 1k mass ship, for example. The cost of that is probably super high, but they'd still win.
     

    Keptick

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    Yeah, but there is a block count where systems start being much less efficient than smaller, more numerous ships.

    10 100 mass ships will defeat a 1k mass ship, for example. The cost of that is probably super high, but they'd still win.
    Oh I know. What I meant is that we like 10 quality 100 mass ships, not 10 shitty 100 mass ships. (except when resources are an issue, in that case we cut where we can)
     

    Mered4

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    Oh I know. What I meant is that we like 10 quality 100 mass ships, not 10 shitty 100 mass ships. (except when resources are an issue, in that case we cut where we can)
    Personally I would skimp on Adv Armor for drones.
     
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    Minimizing the number of computers and modules also helps.

    But really, I feel that the better strategy will be to mix quality heavy weight units with inexpensive (although well built) light drones, using your warships as light carriers. You may still lose some warships, but fewer than if you used exclusively full-scale warships, and you won't be replacing as many drones either, if your drones have some heavy weapons backup to bring down targets sooner; it takes time to kill those drones, once they get spread out. You want infantry to support your tanks and tanks to support your infantry.
     
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    I see your point and I can agree with a lot of it. However if you take your example about the fire and shield power approach by A and B you could also state that if even 1 of 4 ships of B survives when destroying the single A ship its more economical. Because 25% of B has survived and none of A.

    I even got a practical example of this:


    Although I think this strays more in the realm of smaller ships taking on bigger ships. And that discussion has been going on for a long time.

    I think you can’t just say a player will favor quantity doctrine and thus brings only cheap junk ships. That’s the extreme. I think people will want the smaller cheaper ships they bring to do the best they can as well for what they are.
    Just look at any of the drone carrier’s people have built. Some of those drones are very well designed and they are basically throwaway ships.

    It all depends on how people want to play. You see it even now with people only able to pilot one ship. Are they bringing a combat cube packed with as much systems as possible, or are you bringing this beautifully crafted destroyer that’s might have less systems but looks awesome.

    A matter of play style.
     

    Ithirahad

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    Starmade will have AI fleets in the future, so some players are bound to start favoring a style of play where they would rather just create a huge pile of bad ships rather than fewer very good ones. My post was basically a thought experiment of sorts that argues against this kind of strategy both in Starmade and video games in general.
    Huge piles of ships is only used currently because ship-size balancing doesn't seem to work/be linear. A large swarm of tiny drones seems to be more effective than, say, a group of three corvette-ish-sized ships built using the same blocks.
     

    AtraUnam

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    Quantity is used verses quality when the quality units have a low fire-rate. That way it becomes a tactical advantage because by lowering the value of targets you lower the value of each of the opponents limited shots and overwhelm them faster than they can kill you.

    This is why the discrepancy mentioned by the poster above exists, by multiplying numbers by depreciating the cost of your units you also deprecate the value of your opponents bullets.
     
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    In terms of quality versus quantity, you are missing what is known as 'Lanchester's Square Law' (Armoured Warfare, Lanchester's Laws).

    Two ships are better than one ship, since in order to survive the single ship has to kill both of the opposing ships, whereas the two ships only have to kill one enemy between them. This makes the two ships effectively four times as powerful as the single ship (of course assuming that all three are identical).

    This carries over to the situation where one has one very powerful ship facing a large swarm of less powerful ones. While obviously there is a point at which the swarm becomes ineffective because the individual members are too small to do any damage to the large ship, or not quickly enough to offset the loss rate of the swarm ships, the swarm will generally be superior. The swarm can always bring its firepower to bear on the single large ship, whereas the single large ship is unlikely to be able to bring its firepower to bear on every member of the swarm simultaneously. The only way the large ship can even attempt to take on every member of the swarm at once is by using many turrets (essentially a turret swarm), since the turrets will be lower mass (and under the current system at least have less shields) than the swarm, the swarm will be able to defeat the turrets. Furthermore if you imagine that the large ship has its turrets distributed over its surface, while the swarm can focus all of its firepower on one side of the large ship, the large ship is unlikely to be able to bring all of its turrets to bear on a single facing, increasing the effectiveness of the swarm.

    In Starmade large ships do have an advantage because of the way power generation scales, and also because of the way surface area/volume scales they have more internal space for systems/can mount thicker armour, but there are always going to be certain fundamental advantages to swarm tactics.
     
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    Yes, it is true that a single mediocre ship or unit is cheaper and easier to produce than a better and a more expensive one, but if this means that more of them have to be produced in order to stand a chance against even one stronger unit then it doesn't have to be cheaper or faster to build an army of comparable power that can defeat another smaller but more expensive army.

    Because units that are build with a quality over quantity mindset are valuable, those who own them are expected to keep them alive and make the most of them. All the while, those who favor a quantity doctrine are expected to treat their units like cannon fodder and have little regard for their safety.
    There a couple false premises this is built on.
    Just because a unit is cheaper doesn't mean it requires more of them to defeat its counter part. Migs for example can take down US aircraft also. The biggest reason they cost less is in the construction of the air frame not the capability of the ordinance or electronics and so on.

    Secondly, not every person treats cheap units like Canon fodder. Ask the Romans who faced Germanic barbarians in the woods "Teutoburg Forest". The Romans where like porches compared to a yugo. Plenty of Generals through out history have relied more on tactics and cunning. Not everyone acts like the Russians during WWII and putting a machine gun up behind their troops telling them if the come back they will get cut down by it.

    Just because a troop or ship is cheaper doesn't mean its ordinance is any less deadly.

    I made a drone jump ship a while back called a stick ship. It carried 5x5x5 drones. They docked onto each other. The jump ships only purpose was to get the drones on site, propulsion is provided by the drones, the power is provided by the drones. If you take a large ship and make enough drones to equal 1/3 its mass in most cases the small drones will win hands down. Simply because the amount of damage they will achieve in a shorter time. It will take far to long to target and shoot down that number of targets. The reason is the amount of power the small ships can have compared to a large ship and the effective damage out put per second combined of all those ships will be hitting one target while the all the power of the large ship won't be hitting all the drones just a few out of the group. With the way this game is the damage per volume favors small ships. In reality that imbalance is reversed. That said you'll have to see what happens with the new powersupply and weapons balance they are planning.
     
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    You know who else thought that quality over quantity was the way to go? The Imperial Japanese Navy and the Kriegesmarine (Nazi's).

    Although better tactics and strategies are obviously the deciding factor, when it comes down to your equipment you need to strive for the best quality you can get for the quantity you can manage, instead of focusing one way or the other.

    Besides, haven't you ever heard the saying "quantity is it's own quality"? lol
     
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