Warhead as bullet for missile module

[Ithirahad]

There can also be, like, cannon rounds. Physical cannon rounds being able to puncture through shields and hit the block directly but extremely expensive.

No. Remember, regardless of expense this is an infinite sandbox game. I already anticipate tons of people hiding out in faraway galaxies amassing resources, then arriving in the spawn galaxy with cargo bays full of millions of stacks of bullets, then trolling the hell out of everyone and destroying their hard work. Noooooo thanks.

I'd rather have a proper method to shoot warheads (not these glitchy push beams that don't work half as well for this as needed). That would be all we'd need to make warheads useful, because reloading magazines already are possible with rails.

Missiles should be balanced in the same fashion as the other power-only weaponry, and warheads should gain a use as limited-ammo extremely powerful torpedoes/bombs.

Eh. Missiles need rebalancing, but even so the fact that they destroy multiple blocks will give them a bit too much of an advantage in ripping ships apart and destroying their HP over other weapons no matter what. Making larger, block-built torpedoes more viable is good too, but this suggestion has nothing to do with giving warheads a use...

 

[Yrjosmiel]

No. Remember, regardless of expense this is an infinite sandbox game. I already anticipate tons of people hiding out in faraway galaxies amassing resources, then arriving in the spawn galaxy with cargo bays full of millions of stacks of bullets, then trolling the hell out of everyone and destroying their hard work. Noooooo thanks.

I actually like that though.

 

[Mr.Cuddlesworth]

No. Remember, regardless of expense this is an infinite sandbox game. I already anticipate tons of people hiding out in faraway galaxies amassing resources, then arriving in the spawn galaxy with cargo bays full of millions of stacks of bullets, then trolling the hell out of everyone and destroying their hard work. Noooooo thanks.

It's not like people can do something even worse with out current infinite ammo power based weapons or anything which is just easier.
At least the solid ammo way is hard work vs hard work.
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I'd like to see probably a crafting element to solid ammo, with different varients of ammunition with different cores (like real life ammunition)
Cheapest being normal metal rounds, then rounds with more exotic metal cores for further penetration, and special cored ammunition such as explosive, EMP or what ever.
And as I mention many times large fixed cannons would be harder to aim if the aiming system was changed for certain or all weapons to fire in a fixed position instead of the silly pewing everything in 45 degree angles or whatever.

 

[Lord Daro]

In generel i am all for some implementation of ammo-usage.
But i'm not so sure about different types of ammo. Are we talking about having the cargo blocks linked additionally or instead of an effect slave? Ammunition types would be kinda redundand to effects.

Besides that:
Maybe we could make weapons use less energy the more cargos are liked. And one should not be able fire his gun at all even if just one cargo block is linked.

Also, i find it to be a good idea to use more ammo per shot the more damage it does.
(Not necessarily realistic, but would be nice to balance the use of bullets)

 

[Gamel]

updated #1

 

[Mr.Cuddlesworth]

In generel i am all for some implementation of ammo-usage.
But i'm not so sure about different types of ammo. Are we talking about having the cargo blocks linked additionally or instead of an effect slave? Ammunition types would be kinda redundand to effects.

Well logically the use of effect blocks for solid ammo weaponry makes no sense so what would cause the effect would be the type of round fired itself.
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As for the earlier complaint of people stocking up on millions of rounds to go and waste on random people. Make it so a storage container would have only a cerain amount of space for a round, or the round takes up more space than a normal block would, or make it so rounds can not stack. One idea is that one box holds one round, and you will need to link storage boxes together to allow them to carry more than one. (Of course I'm thinking of capital class weaponry, not something silly like small rounds for anti aircraft, now that would be just silly)
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Personally I see this as a better sollution than the silly infinite ammo AMC spray. Perhaps it should be made where you need to collect anti-matter in order for the AMCs to function.

 

[Winterhome]

Personally I see this as a better sollution than the silly infinite ammo AMC spray. Perhaps it should be made where you need to collect anti-matter in order for the AMCs to function.

They're no longer called antimatter cannons

 

[Mr.Cuddlesworth]

They're no longer called antimatter cannons

Oh, I see that now, I'm just used to calling them AMCs is all. Even better reason for them to require ammunition.

 

[Winterhome]

Oh, I see that now, I'm just used to calling them AMCs is all. Even better reason for them to require ammunition.

Could be plasma cannons for all we know.

My idea is just that missiles and such require ammunition storage (maybe a maximum of 20 warheads per crate or something), and other weapons be able to use certain things for auxiliary effects that add on to the existing effects - so you could mix, say, punchthrough with explosive, or get your gun up to maximum effectiveness punchthrough, or whatever.

 

[Mr.Cuddlesworth]

Could be plasma cannons for all we know.

My idea is just that missiles and such require ammunition storage (maybe a maximum of 20 warheads per crate or something), and other weapons be able to use certain things for auxiliary effects that add on to the existing effects - so you could mix, say, punchthrough with explosive, or get your gun up to maximum effectiveness punchthrough, or whatever.

Well in the case of plasma cannons, have plasma ammunition requirements, have players harvest plasma and put them in containers, perhaps a larger version of those paint tube things.

Mixing punch through with explosive via an effect block and an ammunition special core is a good idea, perhaps mixing two effects may have good results like shells not exploding on contact but rather punch through + explosive shell causing a time delay fuse after impact so a shell can detonate inside a ship, a tradeoff for something that can be so strong for balance would be the immense power requirement which logically would be needed to hurl a shell so fast. This idea of effect + shell type is brilliant in my eyes.

 

[Winterhome]

Well in the case of plasma cannons, have plasma ammunition requirements, have players harvest plasma and put them in containers, perhaps a larger version of those paint tube things.

Plasma is ionized gas. You're literally firing burning air at things, and ionizable gases suitable for heating to plasma can be collected from the cosmic medium if need be. Just use less of it and at a hotter temperature if you run low - just needs an electrical input.

But yeah - things that aren't already inherently overpowered don't need to absolutely require ammo, but ammo could be available to make them better than they would be without it. If you want to use guns that aren't awful, then use consumable ammo - potentially consumable ammo with different tiers. *Good* consumable ammunition would be extremely expensive and difficult to make compared to other ammo types - say, on par with making advanced armor in how many steps and resources it takes. Big enough process for it to be a big deal whether you send out fighters with advanced ammunition loaded into machineguns or not.

 

[Mr.Cuddlesworth]

Ideas for ammo

Spoiler: Ammo types

Types of Solid Ammunition for cannons may be, I only really know of what could be done with punch through effect

Basic Steel - or whatever the basic metal is in game
Tungsten Carbide core - If mixed with a punch through effect block it could put on a SABOT effect, the idea of the effect being being it travals faster and passes through more blocks but for less damage to the blocks them selves i.e. be able to pass through say 5 blocks but not destroy them but doing moderate/medium damage where as no punch through effect may destroy 3 in a line
DU Core - Same as Tungsten but may do more damage/pass through more blocks
High Explosive Filler - Basic high explosive shell, explodes on impact, punch through would turn it into a time delay fuse shell exploding after passing through a certain amount of armour.
HESH - Will hit the armour, detonating shortly after and damaging/destroying a certain amount of blocks in an X x Y radius or whatver planes it's on.
HEAT - Hits armour sending a jet of hot metal through it destroying the first block and passing through X amount of others, explosive effect may increase how far it goes.

That's all I got for capital class shells

Smaller guns may use ammunition such as

Basic shells, same principal as capital class version
Flak shell - for anti aircraft but have a fixed range before they go off - Mix with effect blocks for different types of shell combos, such as HE, Ion, EMP etc
Proximity fuse - Even better anti aircraft, they detect and go off when near a craft as opposed to a fixed detonation range - effect blocks would give some extra goodness for these too.

My ideas for ammo would also rely on the collision damage in game to be done a lot better for kinetic energy rounds, that way small point defence weapons don't do the same amount of damage as a capital gun, although even without this you could make it so capital class ammo cannot be fired under a certain barrel length or something

 

[Effane]

Spoiler: Forge_Meiser Quoted

Simply put, here's the idea:

let's say you have a gigantic ship with missile turrets.
-the idea is you have a storage crate on your main ship (not-a-turret)
inside this crate is 90 warheads.
-the missile turrets pull warheads from this crate to fire. (essentially ammo for missile weapons. This can be done with the marker tool.)
-if your ship takes fire, and the storage gets hit, the storage block explodes. depending on how many were inside, a bigger (and more deadly)
-explosion is made. (for example: 1 warhead = current warhead radius. 100 = 100 radius.)

potential upsides:
-you could target storage units to hurt enemy combatants severely.
-boarding parties become of some use (assuming mechanics were added)
-warheads now are better use, as people could use that radius to advantage in ramming ships, man-made mines, etc.
-warheads must be easier to manufacture.

-downsides:
-missile turrets become less popular among combatants.
-missiles require more resources- possibly making warheads a much lower-tier item and much easier to manufacture.
-nullifies use of power requirements for turrets (both good and bad, but mostly bad, since this is a really big part of overhaul.)
-new players might find a missile turret very hard to construct, since they might not know the game had ammo mechanics.

Not to be the naysayer but I can see a host of good and bad things about this idea.

Positives:

• Resource Consumption helps with economics
• Ammo is another valuable commodity
• Ammo limitations does reduce spamming
• Missiles are currently needing a re-balance
• This is a form of 'in game theme' solution using blocks to solve an issue

Negatives: (Sadly this is where it gets a bit hairy )

• Blocks as ammo seems awkward. It should be a capsule as ammo to match the current scheme
• Warheads have a purpose, they just need some work/balancing. This would remove that purpose from them and turn them into food
• Would you apply this effect to other weapons? Which complicates the system more
• Better methods of balancing missiles as a weapon system using the current system
• Adding effects this way defeats the current effect system. Then you end up with two divergent systems
• How would you account for ammo. X blocks * Constant = Y Ammo? How will new players understand this?
• This would require a new block type, Ammo container to avoid logic issues
• This doesn't cure the underlying issues with missiles (built in punch-through/piercing effect of AOEs, High spike damage, high range, incredibly effective slave effects, always targeting the core).

Take Aways:

• This would make the system more complicated and could end up diverging it
• This would provide very little balance, just more preparation needed. Time sinking isn't balancing.
• This could be good for the game economy though
• Some form of a consumable for the ship would be a good idea
• Weapons need a lot of work before making them more complicated. There are a bunch of 'broken' things inside the weapon list. You don't build on top of broken.

Items should maintain their purpose, dual purposing items gets complicated (IE Effect modules and Weapon modules). Over use that and the game will become convoluted and difficult to learn and reduce overall fun factor. It is already a steep introduction. Currently you can use a weapon system and not understand dual purpose(Build computer, link weapon modules to computer, drop on ship bar). Add this and you will make it so they can't progress without understanding multipurpose blocks and connections.

I would like to see a fuel system in game and I think the time for that could be soon. Ammo isn't ready yet unless you want to scrap the effects system IMO. I think an ammoless system isn't a bad thing, since you can argue the ways 'ammo' could be made from energy. Plus the ammoless system keeps all the weapons generally in line with each other. Fueling lasers would be weird (are we going to make people chase down noble gases?), Particle beams are a lot more energy and less mass, pulse weapons are essentially an expanding plasma cloud which is more energy and less mass as well. The amount of mass a rail gun uses is very low, and anti-matter is also a low source of mass (but that would make sense as ammo, since its hard to make).

 

[Ithirahad]

Personally, I see no use in overcomplicating the system... Missiles need something to balance them out without nerfing their capabilities into oblivion, so make them take warheads, since, you know, missiles need warheads to blow up. Every other weapon type doesn't seem to be too OP, and we already have an Effects system, so I see no sense in complicating things with having types and tiers of ammo for everything unless you guys want to replace the slave/effect system outright, with some kind of dynamic ammo system, which would be more complicated and a lot less fun, IMO... So as I see it, just don't mess with them for the time being, there are better uses for the devs' (and players' - that would be a lot of refitting!) time.

 

[siserith]

two would be the best for this. but three also applies. if you use warheads to boost the damage of a weapon it should reduce the power cost LITTLE bit. and you should be able to set the weapons to use multiple at once for a bigger boost. but the size of the weapon itself should also apply to the warhead cost