Very simple way to make small ships useful (no gigantic titan nerfing)

[Mariux]

I've seen many threads regarding how useless tiny ships are and most of them are about dramaticly nerfing large ships by reducing their firepower, power generation and, most oftenly, shielding. But there was one aspect that wasn't really explored/discussed as far as I've noticed. And that is detection range.

Currently, all ships are visible from a certain range. As you can probably guess by now, I suggest that the smaller the ship is, the smaller its detection radius is (you need to be closer to it to show up on the radar). Larger ships would be much easier to detect.

Now, you might ask: "but how will this favour small ships in combat? I mean, they won't be noticed as quicly, but in combat, they will suck" and that is a good point. But what if there were 100s of fighters? They will all have a small detection range, and, if flown in an organized group, could be a hard to detect AND lethal force to deal with. Of course, this would require more advanced AI to make this work, but that's already planned.

 

[Yrjosmiel]

How about this though:
The more power blocks you place, the less the bonus is.

 

[Mariux]

How about this though:
The more power blocks you place, the less the bonus is.

You mean, the more power there is, the more detectable the ship is? That could work, too.

 

[Yrjosmiel]

You mean, the more power there is, the more detectable the ship is? That could work, too.

No, I mean that like, for example, you have these power reactor blocks. The power bonus decreases the more you put.

 

[Mariux]

No, I mean that like, for example, you have these power reactor blocks. The power bonus decreases the more you put.

It's kind of already in the game as dimensional power reactor bonus already decreases depending on the ships size. I'm not trying to make large ships useless by any means, I just want to see small ships have some more uses.

 

[Crimson-Artist]

the thrust overhaul and Turrets tracking speed based on mass are confirmed so in a way this is already planned

 

[aceface]

I think that this is a really good idea.

 

[Malacodor]

But what if there were 100s of fighters?

Hundreds of small ships ARE already better than a big ship with the same mass, even with just AI control.

 

[whooplaah]

Well, I'll admit that this is an idea I haven't seen before.

This would really allow for small fighters to sneak-aboard larger ships before getting shot down. If/When astronaut mode is expanded, I'm sure that boarding parties will be a great way of quickly taking down large ships (particularly if we get shield-control computers and energy-control computers).

It wouldn't really balance the two out in a fight (a fighter is still never going to get through the shield regen of a titan), but it would produce many more stale-mates.

 

[Keptick]

hmmmm, I like this. Could even potentially integrate scanning and jamming, which need changing anyways.

 

[Knack]

What about making the detection range depending on your own mass and the mass of the other ship.
For example:
Own ship = 1000 mass
Enemy = 1000 mass
= 100% detection range

Own ship = 1000 mass
Enemy = 500 mass
= 50% detection range

Own ship = 1000 mass
Enemy = 200 mass
= 200% detection range

capping at 25% and 400%

Additionally, if scanners installed, big ships show up in the galaxy map if not to far away. (I don't want to discuss the "not to far away" now)

 

[godmars]

So has anyone ever thought of how things will play out once we have working fleet AI? I mean, yeah, it's probably a ways off, and its skewed now, and the big ships may need some tweaks either way, but... yeah your lone fighter probably can't beat a frigate or whatever, but can you imagine what hell it would be for someone in their 10k mass ship going against you and your 50 200 Mass radar-jammed fighters alone? Even with the dumb-as-bricks AI we have now, a fighter/bomber swarm of equivalent mass will eat the larger ship alive.

 

[Mariux]

Hundreds of small ships ARE already better than a big ship with the same mass, even with just AI control.

So has anyone ever thought of how things will play out once we have working fleet AI? I mean, yeah, it's probably a ways off, and its skewed now, and the big ships may need some tweaks either way, but... yeah your lone fighter probably can't beat a frigate or whatever, but can you imagine what hell it would be for someone in their 10k mass ship going against you and your 50 200 Mass radar-jammed fighters alone? Even with the dumb-as-bricks AI we have now, a fighter/bomber swarm of equivalent mass will eat the larger ship alive.

Exactly my point. Firepower-wise, small ships are already effective enough.

What about making the detection range depending on your own mass and the mass of the other ship.
For example:
Own ship = 1000 mass
Enemy = 1000 mass
= 100% detection range

Own ship = 1000 mass
Enemy = 500 mass
= 50% detection range

Own ship = 1000 mass
Enemy = 200 mass
= 200% detection range

capping at 25% and 400%

Additionally, if scanners installed, big ships show up in the galaxy map if not to far away. (I don't want to discuss the "not to far away" now)

That's also one way of doing it, but then a small ship/ship core carried by a huge ship would have a huge detection range and could effectively spot even fighters.

 

[Mariux]

I just had a thought that having navigation officers as crew (crews are already planned) could increase the detection range of the ship making it somewhat easier to spot fighters.

 

[Jolly Roger]

Idea: Use overdrive for balance, change turret dynamics

I think overdrive should be based on increase in percentage of thrust instead of server speed limit. Of course, this would make smaller ships go even faster than server speed limit. This way, even if you put overdrive on a large ship, it will still be slow. You could also exponentially increase the effectiveness of overdrive on smaller ships. This would make them be able to avoid missiles coming at the wrong trajectory, and come in and out of weapon range of a turret quickly. It would also allow pilot skill and a well rounded ship with the correct mass to be able to avoid being hit as well as be maneuverable enough to make meaningful shots back, and encourage people to fly fighters the way they are meant to be.

I also want to add that turret tracking should not be nerfed so that they are less effective. Instead, maneuvering a small ship to avoid every single shot from a turret should be challenging instead of impossible. I may be wrong, but the current AI system does not seem to support this. It seems like every number of shots, one will hit dead center, while other shots are programmed go to off course.

Instead turrets should hit with pinpoint accuracy on every shot on a stationary target, but only decrease in accuracy for a moving target. Perhaps turret speed shouldn't change, but the AI tracking should be slightly slowed down to allow fast moving ships to escape.

 

[Planr]

No, I mean that like, for example, you have these power reactor blocks. The power bonus decreases the more you put.

That's already in the game with a flat bonus of 25 e/sec per block after around 1.2 million. it starts really decreasing in returns after 1 million.

 

[Mork2]

If overdrive increased thrust and top speed this would make small ships with it more survivable. To avoid fire you generally have to change vector with acceleration. The higher the acceleration the more likely a small ship has to avoid cannon fire.

 

[Mariux]

If overdrive increased thrust and top speed this would make small ships with it more survivable. To avoid fire you generally have to change vector with acceleration. The higher the acceleration the more likely a small ship has to avoid cannon fire.

So, what you're suggesting is that overdrive not only adds top speed, but also acceleration, but the latter with diminishing returns that make them benefit small ships more? Sounds interesting.

 

[Valiant70]

If overdrive increased thrust and top speed this would make small ships with it more survivable. To avoid fire you generally have to change vector with acceleration. The higher the acceleration the more likely a small ship has to avoid cannon fire.

Meh. That doesn't really work at close range or if the enemy is armed with beams. That's why the massive cone of fire needs to be reduced or removed. Bullets coming 45* out the side of a barrel are ugly anyway.

I've seen many threads regarding how useless tiny ships are and most of them are about dramaticly nerfing large ships by reducing their firepower, power generation and, most oftenly, shielding. But there was one aspect that wasn't really explored/discussed as far as I've noticed. And that is detection range.

Currently, all ships are visible from a certain range. As you can probably guess by now, I suggest that the smaller the ship is, the smaller its detection radius is (you need to be closer to it to show up on the radar). Larger ships would be much easier to detect.

Now, you might ask: "but how will this favour small ships in combat? I mean, they won't be noticed as quicly, but in combat, they will suck" and that is a good point. But what if there were 100s of fighters? They will all have a small detection range, and, if flown in an organized group, could be a hard to detect AND lethal force to deal with. Of course, this would require more advanced AI to make this work, but that's already planned.

Yeah, that's a good idea. Your exploration corvette won't get trounced by a Titan if the Titan doesn't know you're there, and this makes it easier to stay hidden because you'll detect the Titan first.

 

[Zaphord]

The detection range idea is good, let's you find a good hiding spot/jam/cloak before bigger ships wind up right on top of you.

Love the overdrive idea the most, I build and fly a lot of fighters, and my biggest pet peeve is the best tactic you can use is circle strafing. Not really how a fighter attacks a target, is it? I want to do high speed bombing runs over a carrier deck, or have a proper dogfight, not dance around in circles.