Vector analysis of tactical situations in StarMade

    Joined
    May 25, 2013
    Messages
    228
    Reaction score
    16
    As the game is recent and space combat has yet to be tested with rigorous methods , opinions on combat balance differ due to anecdotal evidence. After experiencing a few typical space fights on servers with different settings , I tried to explain their outcomes based on my understanding of game mechanics.

    The initial conditions of space combat can vary greatly , but there's a general trend that many noticed - bigger ships tend to win more often. This was easiest to explain before the shield changes , as large ships were mathematically impossible to defeat without enough guns to outdamage their shield regeneration.

    Now that this changed , people might think that small ships stand a fighting chance against large ones. This is technically true.

    Let's consider the tactical variables here. Ships have a relative motion which is the difference of their respective velocity vectors.



    Fig. 1 : light fighter flies with a velocity vector (V1) towards the large ship that flies with a velocity vector (V2). Its relative motion (Vr) is simply (V1)-(V2).

    In a frontal engagement , both ships can open fire as soon as they are within weapons range , draining each other's shields then destroying modules. Typically , a large ship will destroy a smaller ship's weapon modules before those can deal significant damage. Flying towards larger ships when you're within their cone of fire is generally ill-advised.

    Now , initial conditions can be a great deal more complex , sometimes involving stealth or the larger ship's pilot being completely oblivious. The light fighter has a chance to close the distance and reach weapons range from a blind spot. This is where the game's physics start to matter.



    Fig. 2 : successful ambush by the light fighter , with combat starting opposite to the large ship's weapon output.

    Part 1 : upon noticing shield damage or hearing shots , the large ship's pilot usually opts to fly in a given direction in an attempt to evade or locate his attacker. Depending on the thrust to mass ratios , it takes between 1 and 10 seconds for both ships to reach maximum speed if it's close to the default value (equal or below 75km/h)

    Once that happens , both ships have matched speeds and are nearly static relative to each other. The status quo favors the light fighter at first , slowly depleting the large ship's shields as it's fleeing towards its homebase or possibly the sun to deny any loot , should that pilot choose not to fight back.

    If he does , the light fighter has a short time window in which it must deal enough damage to core its target. Failing that , the only option is to withdraw and cloak in a hurry. With no cloak , the fight is already lost. Why ?

    Part 2 : the large ship turns to face its attacker. Continuing on their previous trajectory , both ships are still static relative to each other. Seeing the large ship turn , the light fighter may opt to strafe away from the doom-delivering end , but due to the limit in absolute speed , this only results in losing ground , reducing the angular velocity gain from strafing.

    Part 3 : With the large ship maintaining its trajectory during rotation , it is soon enough able to face the light ship and possibly chase it to the other end of the universe if necessary.

    Conclusion : with shield regeneration halting under fire , it is now possible to destroy unpiloted or AFK ships with a smaller one. Defeating them when piloted by anyone with even a basic understanding of movement controls , however , is very unlikely.
     
    Joined
    Jul 3, 2013
    Messages
    72
    Reaction score
    0
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    • Legacy Citizen
    This post is great in many ways. It effectively shows why all the rage yesterday was unnecessary.
     
    Joined
    Jun 23, 2013
    Messages
    295
    Reaction score
    0
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    • Legacy Citizen
    the most entertaining use of vectors I\'ve seen in a while.

    MATH. FUN.
     
    Joined
    Jun 29, 2013
    Messages
    58
    Reaction score
    0
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    • Legacy Citizen
    I like this game, but very much sadly I can\'t help but feel that until things are tweaked a bit more that it still suffers a little bit from \"gigantism\" control when bigger weapons deal more damage, shoot farther and at higher projectile speed, but even reload faster than smaller weapons.

    Whereas in history, using the extreme example of say a 57mm armor piercing shell from an antitank gun versus a shell from the 800mm dora railroad gun, generally while a larger gun would tend to shoot farther for much more damage... a smaller gun would at least shoot generally a much faster projectile(lighter shell/projectile allowing to make more of the propellant blast) but also be -much- faster to reload(to compare the 57mm shell that can be loaded in it\'s gun by hand, versus the 800mm monster shell that required a crane and winch to put into the gun).

    And even in the case of energy weapons, I could imagine larger guns at least requiring a longer time to build up a charge befitting of their damage dealing capacities, versus a smaller gun able to make up more efficient works in comparison of it\'s circuits.
    There\'s a reason processors have gotten -smaller- in time as they got more performing. The small size actually helps in their performance. Generally scaling up tend to quickly turn into a game of disminishing return without some highly dedicated designs.
     
    Joined
    Jun 22, 2013
    Messages
    26
    Reaction score
    0
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    • Legacy Citizen
    Just lengthening reload proportionally to power would increase the skill ceiling of flying larger ships, which is desirable.

    Small ships can then have fast shooting weaposn and have an easier time maintaining constant damage, even if it is low DPS.

    Also, I\'m sort of campaigning for that idea, but i believe the solution to this whole shield invulnerability problem is to have a small portion of damage seepign trough, damaging regardless of shields.

    You would get a use for hulls of all kind and repair beams, and engagement would be at some cost even if victory is guaranteed. Which essentialy was the problem before: riskless victories for large ships.
     
    Joined
    Jul 1, 2013
    Messages
    128
    Reaction score
    17
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    • Purchased!
    OHMIGODYOUARESUCHANOOBIDIOTCUZYOUSAYTHECHANGEISNOTGONNADESTROYMYBIGASSCAPITALSHIP!

    But in all seriousness, THANK YOU. Lets see those ragers find a way to counter that argument. And to prematurely counter any arguments of \"Big ships turn so slow they can\'t hit fighters\", The HMS Lunar II weighs in at a mass of 40,000. It has so many engines that it turns like a frigate, or a heavy fighter. A Fighter with 300 shoop cannons sticking out its nose.
     
    Joined
    Jun 29, 2013
    Messages
    58
    Reaction score
    0
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    • Legacy Citizen
    Also, is there a \"+fav\" button somewhere on this forum?

    Because this need to be totally favved.
     
    Joined
    Jun 25, 2013
    Messages
    85
    Reaction score
    1
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    • Legacy Citizen
    he forgot to mention those of us with turrets that can take down that small ship, while the main ship ignores them and continues on corse or mining as it so wishes, while the bees sting as they wish. it helps to have many layers of hull to keep them from stinging your core too many times. takes a bit of skill to keep firing down the same tunnle that you have been carving out with shots while the target is in motion. :P
     
    Joined
    Jun 27, 2013
    Messages
    202
    Reaction score
    10
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    • Purchased!
    First of all thruster doesnt make you turn faster (@moonbringer), then if your talking about 1v1 I\'m pretty happy you get raped with a small ship, it\'s normal when fighting against a big one.

    And even on 1v1 you can manage to don\'t get raped if you do something like that (I drew because I suck explaining things like that in english) :



    This is possible because you have more acceleration/turning speed (he can\'t really see you) as a small ship.

    And even if you can\'t kill the big ship because it\'s so long you\'re still able to kill every turret he has since they don\'t share the shield.



    PS : I agree with the last patch shield balance, so no I\'m not a big ship fanboy.

    PS.2: Already tested this on multiplayer servers and it works.
     
    Joined
    Jun 28, 2013
    Messages
    71
    Reaction score
    0
    The big ship has turrets that a small ship will have to keep a distance from, so even with the increased speed of a fighter the cruiser is going to eventually catch up to it and say \"bye-bye\". Now if you take out the turrets the fighter can get nice and close so it can peck at shielding that will take maybe an hour to deplete... so really who wins? The big ship that needs to replace the turrets, or the small ship that can\'t flee for fear of the cruiser chasing it down and sending it to a plasma fueled abyss?
     
    Joined
    Jun 27, 2013
    Messages
    202
    Reaction score
    10
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    • Purchased!
    With that image I mean that if the big ship goes to one direction if you manage to go in that direction before him he will be forced up to change it (otherwise you escape by changing your direction) and since you have more acceleration you can repeat the process and stay out of range.

    On most of the ships you can destroy turrets easily, they aim like shit, don\'t have a lot of dps and they don\'t share shield.

    And as I said you shouldn\'t win 1v1 against a big ship if you have a fighter, it doesn\'t make any sence. Really..
     
    Joined
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages
    34
    Reaction score
    0
    I think they should balance to a point were the out come of a fight is based on 2 part flying skill and 1 part building skill.
     
    Joined
    Jun 28, 2013
    Messages
    71
    Reaction score
    0
    from the looks of the drawing it looks like you just follow their back corner no matter which way they turn.
     
    Joined
    May 25, 2013
    Messages
    228
    Reaction score
    16
    Looks like you didn\'t understand my demonstration. If a ship is flying away from you and maintains his velocity vector , you cannot change your relative orientation without adding distance. If that ship is flying towards you , strafing is more effective as the distance decreases , but soon you\'ll collide with it and either teleport away or find yourself drifting right in front of the guns.

    It is possible to outmanoeuver a large ship , but only if the pilot doesn\'t know how the game works.
     
    Joined
    Jul 6, 2013
    Messages
    254
    Reaction score
    43
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    In completed meta of the current understanding of space combat, bigger the ship the more easier prey it is to the smallest ships, but one small ship must never be a winner against a dreadnaught. What it means in case of changes required to the SM from now:

    1. Thrusters must add up speed based on tonnage, but penalty to speed must be based both on tonnage and ship dimensions, due to the factor of velocity inertia from the ships structure (ship loses speed to it\'s structure resisting the acceleration). It also means that ship tonnage must affect the top speed of a ship, since right now you can accelerate to the server-based speed limit even with minimal thrust. That would make motherships and dreadnaughts unable to just fly away at top speed the moment they feel threatened by several smaller ships.
    2. At the same time, big ships must have an adequate countermeasuer against underwhelming small ships. First of all, turrets must shoot much more accurate, so that piloting skill is required to avoid incoming damage. Perhaps it would require an another iteration of BOBBY AI, that can only be crafted, which would give advanced functionality and better aim. Missiles have to be faster, but less agile.
    3. Beam weapon unit dimensions relative to the ship axis and form must affect the parameters of a said weapon. Longtitude gives more range but hinders the firing arc, density (blocks per total volume) gives most damage but hinders projectile speed, etc. Current mechanics is quite unpredictable, and in most cases you just want a long stick of rapid-fire death. Updating them will allow for better customisation for different situations and against different targets.
    4. There have to be a block, that affects the turning rate of a ship separately, but ship must barely turn without it, unless it\'s a core-only pod. This would require both smaller and bigger ships to use double the space on average to keep their ship mobile. Ships with a lot of those \"RCS\" would work as Incterceptors and Gunships good against smaller ships, and ships with more thrusters/less steering would work as Bomber/Assault roles to run bombing runs on capital ships or charging into enemy lines before launching Fighters and Combat Drones. It was extremely frustrating when I\'ve build a nice brown/white spheroid 23x23x23 meters, only to find that it turns slow like a capital ship...
     
    Joined
    Jun 27, 2013
    Messages
    202
    Reaction score
    10
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    • Purchased!
    @stak, yes I understood but the fact is, it\'s only true when they are escaping (/keep moving away from your initial position even if you managed to get behind them) but even like that you\'re still able to escape (just fly away when he\'s turning). And that\'s suposing they are able to precisely see you all the time because if you get jammers they are so fcked.

    Don\'t tell me it don\'t works since I already did it a lot of times as a small ship, in fact in real situations you don\'t even have to worry about all that theocrafting, I don\'t know if you realise but a 30k mass ship last approximately 40 secs to turn over.

    And as I said even if he kills you in the process it\'s normal, you\'re not going to kill a capital ship with a lone fighter, lol...
     
    Joined
    Jun 25, 2013
    Messages
    85
    Reaction score
    1
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    • Legacy Citizen
    with enough shielded turrets, you can protect any sized ship so the shields never let the damage hit the blocks. even if the fighter flies circles around you, the turrets are already in position to start firing at them on their way around you. i end up ignoring all fighters around me due to how fast they die off. if you build your ship right, it doesnt matter how you pilot it. if you pilot your ship right, it doesnt matter how your build it. if you find your balance, you can be the god of your server.
     
    Joined
    Apr 25, 2013
    Messages
    1,076
    Reaction score
    186
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    This thread is giving me a headache; I\'m so confused! (please, don\'t try to explain it to me in detail, i\'m just observing what\'s being said) Summer vacation isn\'t even over yet and my 11th grade Physics class seems to have started early now! haha