Time for a real demo?

[RabidBat]

Just wonder if giving the full game out for nothing hurts Schine financially?

I know it provides a tonne more 'play testers' for them, but that only counts if people are actually offering feedback and reporting bugs.
Something I get the feeling many playing whether free or paid rarely do in any 'early access' title.
What made me think about this is I see a lot of people who have hundreds of hours playing, been playing for years, especially via my Steam friends list when I see "Player X is playing StarMade demo", and I think:

"Wait, if you have gotten so many hours out of the game, why are you still playing the demo? Obviously you like the game, give the devs some money FFS"
I'd ask directly but pointing out such things seems to upset people for some reason.

And I think the main reason simply is, because they don't have to. I mean why buy the farm when the milk is free? When I was a senior mod on the server I play on, I'd say the vast majority would show as using the demo when a playerinfo was done on them.

So is it maybe about time Schine looked at making the StarMade demo an actual demo, and making people pay for the full experience?

Possibly make the demo one System to play in. A sun, a planet, some asteroids and a shop and at least one of each station type, trade, pirate and derelict. Pretty much a single system would surely be enough for players to see every aspect of the game and decide if it is worth their time and money. And completely strip out any network/multi-player altogether. Invisible walls on every side of the system.

Another option perhaps is make it so only those who have purchased the game can access the suggestions area on these forums? Or other such perks for rewarding those financially supporting the development, or to encourage people to part with a few measly dollars.

Surely new players would be fine with this, and in all honestly established players by this point should know if they like the game or not and should be supporting it. (and come on, if you're still playing after hundreds of hours you wouldn't be playing a game so much you hate like so surely? )

Could also have a major impact in a good way on the ideas people put forward suggestion and feedback wise.
e.g stop people from wanting StarMade to be a free version of Space Engineers and similar, and instead focus on offering input on how to make StarMade, well just StarMade. (Obviously if StarMade is too expensive for you, then SE is out of the question when it costs $10 more.)

Be interested to get a devs input on this, see the logic of why the demo is still the full version after so many years. The reasoning and logic behind it.

Also like to get players input also, if you've played SM for hundreds or even thousands of hours and are still on the demo, why are you?

I got the game for $10usd on Steam, now it's $15, see plenty of less featured early access titles without a demo that cost more, surely the entry fee is not that high? (actually I have bought 4 copies but who is counting lol)
What's preventing you from buying it, and if the StarMade demo became a real demo, and you had to buy it to keep the experience you've been enjoying, would you do so?

What would it take for you to buy the game?

Maybe people are worried a huge portion of the player base will vanish if they're forced to buy it?

Just something I am interested in discussing and seeing what others think and their reasoning for it.

 

[NeonSturm]

Community content should be freely accessible.

What would you do with a .sment file without being able to play SM ?

What if your friends all play SM and you cannot because you don'T want to support the licence choice or product?

​

StarMade has the ability to steal your friends and possible players from your other freely available game.

And that's why everything beneath the CC should be free source, only better/individual textures or a new Dave model is what I would restrict to paying players.

That's something you don't need but want.​

 

[DukeofRealms]

Be interested to get a devs input on this, see the logic of why the demo is still the full version after so many years. The reasoning and logic behind it.

Well, we've always said StarMade will be free to play in alpha development. Once we hit beta, free players will be stuck with the alpha game (buggy, unbalanced, performance heavy, incomplete features), or they can purchase the game. We might make a demo version of the game that's more stable and showcases our features better (as the alpha builds could send potential customers running for the hills).

Why? Because we believe that an Early Access/alpha game should allow people to play the game for free. Those who appreciate our efforts can purchase (invest) in the game. Unfortunately, many other companies make half-assed products, abandon projects and other actions that tarnish the industry. I believe that people can appreciate that Schine isn't one of those companies, we're here to make a great game, not a quick buck.

Additionally, we haven't been very clear with where StarMade is going. We have planned features scattered around, vague statements describing what StarMade will be, but we've never provided a single, coherent, extensive document that shows current and potential customers Schine's end goal, vision for StarMade. This is something we're currently trying to address while we're restructuring Schine.

What if your friends all play SM and you cannot because you don'T want to support the licence choice or product?

If this were the case, it would sound like StarMade isn't for you then, it being free or not doesn't change that

 

[NeonSturm]

If this were the case, it would sound like StarMade isn't for you then, it being free or not doesn't change that

If my friend buys a chess board, he can always play with me - no licenses.
If he instead is vendor-locked by say EvilGameXY, he cannot play it with me as he did if this EvilGameXY did not existed and maybe not plays with me in this time.

And what if nobody ever added to community content, would the game then steal me time with this friend? maybe he himself wouldn't even play it then.
​

Isn't locking away freely donated community content in a game which is pay2play is taking from others - even from those who never accepted the terms?

Some sort of modern slave labour?​

 

[-Moose-]

If my friend buys a chess board, he can always play with me​

buys

If only you could buy starmade and play it with your friend.

Isn't locking away freely donated community content in a game which is pay2play is taking from others - even from those who never accepted the terms?

Some sort of modern slave labour?​

so you want someone to give you the product of four+ years worth of REAL time and labor for free because without it you can't fly around in virtual spaceships.

Uh huh.

and then you preach about modern slave labor.

Okay.

Short answer, no and no.

Neon, do you have a job? I want you to go in to work tomorrow and make the same argument to your boss and refuse to be paid.

Or read "the wealth of nations" by Adam Smith.

 

[NeonSturm]

Neon, do you have a job? I want you to go in to work tomorrow and make the same argument to your boss and refuse to be paid.

What if I would be a school kid with 10€ pocket money per month?

I don't say that SM should be through and through free. Only those parts which connect your free GNU/Linux system with community content and the parts required to play with your friend who made that CC after paying.

Shine can take money for Ultra-HD (and non-standard inclusive new) texture packs they made themselves.
They can take money for missions and tutorials they themselves made.
Also, they can still take money for dev-release access (the newest 2 releases which are not pushed to default stable).

But cutting a free player away from freely donated CC is what I argue against.​

 

[-Moose-]

What if I would be a school kid with 10€ pocket money per month?​

Then your teachers should still be compensated for the service they are providing you.

Just as you should be for any job you get in the future.

I don't say that SM should be through and through free. Only those parts which connect your free GNU/Linux system with community content and the parts required to play with your friend who made that CC after paying.

Shine can take money for Ultra-HD (and non-standard inclusive new) texture packs they made themselves.
They can take money for missions and tutorials they themselves made.
Also, they can still take money for dev-release access (the newest 2 releases which are not pushed to default stable).

But cutting a free player away from freely donated CC is what I argue against.

So you are saying that Schine should only charge for texture packs, the tutorial, and missions.

All three of these, as you state, can be provided by the community for free.

So you want the devs to compete against people who will do the job for free.

And you think the devs will turn a profit? A profit significant enough to cover the costs of 4 years+ development. In addition to the cost of storing community content online.

Please explain how.

 

[NeonSturm]

Then your teachers should still be compensated for the service they are providing you.

I don't know what teachers have in common with developers.
Teachers do work continuously. Developers do work initially.​

So you are saying that Schine should only charge for texture packs, the tutorial, and missions.

No. I say only for the content they themselves provided.

The functional part is a marketing platform for all above (artwork, music, client-side defaults, …)​

But placing yourself in the middle between donated CC (shared free of charge) and the players which want to access the CC will make you a "highway bandit".​

 

[Gasboy]

When Minecraft first came out, I could not understand the attraction it had. I didn't get it. Watching my roommate play... it seemed boring.

Then, one weekend, the Minecraft login servers broke. And they basically said, ok, everyone can have it for free this weekend.

I downloaded it. Less than 2 hours later, they had my ten Euros.

I don't think the demo being the full game will hurt them in any way. It helps them loads, trust me. I think people are honest, generally, and that after enjoying the game for a while, many will decide to support Schine's efforts and buy the game.

When you decide that you can compete with free (basically pirates downloading your stuff), you win in the end. Starmade is doing just fine.

As someone who paid for SM, I have absolutely no problem with people playing for free. More players = more $$$ in the long run.

 

[sayerulz]

Consider the nature of alpha. At the moment, starmade is not a finished game. It's a work in progress. If it were a AAA company developing it, starmade would probably not even be available to play at this stage in development. However, Schine does not have the luxury of being able to hire an army of testers, or to spend years developing a game that isn't currently turning a profit. So, they release it in alpha. Doing this is kills two birds with one stone, so to speak: by giving feedback, players act as testers, and those who buy the alpha provide the money needed to continue development.

So what does the demo do? It does two important things. It provides a larger pool of testers, and also, it lets people who are not quite willing to buy the game get a feel for it. Many of these people might not find the game very much fun in it's current state. I myself will admit to not having played the game much for quite some time. Some of this I will attribute to recent computer troubles, but the main reason is that I just don't find the game all that fun at the moment. I like building ships, but the fact that I am building them in, in addition to the literal vacuum of space, a figurative vacuum of a total lack of anything to do with my spaceships, means that I get bored after a while. But playing the game, which I would possibly never have done without the free version, has let me see how much potential it has. When the finished, fully functional version comes out, than I will gladly buy it, and I think a lot of other people will to.

 

[RabidBat]

Firstly a big thanks to everyone contributing, whether I agree or not, it is good to see the world through the eyes of others.

*snip*

Fair enough. I can respect where you are coming from, but still, as I said many EA games that are not as complete have no demos, are sold for much more and seem to do ok.

Community content should be freely accessible.

Um not sure what you are getting at. I am not suggesting CC should be paid. And honestly I am a first gen gamer, I hate paid cosmetics and such, I'd rather pay a dev full price for a game and be done, happy to pay for substantial expansions that massively add content to the game as was done in the days of old. E.g I bought Quake 2, then happily bought it's 2 mission packs, same with many games back when that was the norm.

Point is, the game itself is not community content, it is a retail product. IT has a price tag. And I am sure Schema and friends would like to be paid at the end of the day. One thing to make some mods or CC in your spare time, another to work full time on a product for nothing.

You need the base game to use the CC, so yes of course it would be stupid to have .sment files when you do not have the game to which they go with. I put a blueprint on the dock, I do not expect people to buy it, but I do expect they own the game that it works with.
Just seem like logic and common sense to me.

If my friend buys a chess board, he can always play with me - no licenses.
If he instead is vendor-locked by say EvilGameXY, he cannot play it with me as he did if this EvilGameXY did not existed and maybe not plays with me in this time.

And what if nobody ever added to community content, would the game then steal me time with this friend? maybe he himself wouldn't even play it then.
​

Isn't locking away freely donated community content in a game which is pay2play is taking from others - even from those who never accepted the terms?

Some sort of modern slave labour?​

LOLWUT, So if you play Laser Tag, should your friend sneak in to avoid paying as you and everyone else did because reasons? Because of entitlement?
Chess is not a video game, it's centuries old and nobody owns the rights to it as far as I am aware. It can hardly be compared to an online video game with commercial application. You buying the chessboard, and it being a 2 player game based off a single purchase, is what gives him the right or privilege to play.

And slavery..... again LOLWUT
Think you have confused slave labour with volunteering.
One is being forced to work through violence and power, one is choosing to work and volunteer your time because you want to.
Schine and nobody else forces me or anyone else to make ships and stations etc, then give them away. Nor do they charge people for it. Now if they decided to sell my blueprints without permission. Then yes, I would have a problem with it. If they chained me up in the basement and made me design content without compensation then that would be slave labour.

Seriously who is locking free content away? How did it even come up?

You're whole point is invalid I am afraid. It is logically fallacious. (I'll let you look that one up)

What if I would be a school kid with 10€ pocket money per month?​

What if I want a Ferrari and do not have a million dollars? Do I steal the money or maybe the car? No, I save my pennies until I can afford it.
Just as I do my games,, just as I did with my PC games, as I always have since I was a kid until now.
As a self employed adult, I still had to save up for a year to buy my GTX970, it did not just fall from the sky.

It is how the real world works. You want something you work for it. Or it is how it should work.
Doesn't matter if you're a kid or an adult. Ask your parents for a raise, get a newspaper route or equivilent, put some of that 10 euros into a piggy bank each month until you have enough. Seems simple enough.

It's what my kids do. My step son for example wanted Rocket League, so he saved up and bought it himself.
Why should it be any different for you or your 'friend'.?

I don't know what teachers have in common with developers.
Teachers do work continuously. Developers do work initially.

Yeah think many FULL TIME developers would disagree. From experience many devs work around the clock. Teachers at least get paid vacations and have set hours.

No. I say only for the content they themselves provided.

And nobody sane would dispute that buddy, you're the one who brings it up. Again why? Who knows, from what I know Schine aint trying to profit off of others works, only their own. Again not sure the point you're trying to make?

Sadly I have to go right now, I'll address everyone else when I get back.

​

 

[Comradecolonel]

This game doesn't just need money right now, we also needs a lot of ideas. If you took away the ability to play this game for free, then the playerpool and idea pool would certainly decrease. You would get funds in the short term but I feel in the long run you would be hurting yourself. We need players from all walks of life and perspectives to give their input on the game.

Starmade has about 250,000 owners on steam. That's less then the current amount of online players in minecraft right now. Taking away the demo would not increase sales at all. A lot of people that I have talked to don't even know that you can get a free version of the game. Most of them ended up not even touching the game because they didn't think it was worth the 15 dollars.

 

[Dvaren]

I think people are honest, generally, and that after enjoying the game for a while, many will decide to support Schine's efforts and buy the game.

As good hearted as you may be, Gasboy, I believe you severely underestimate the scope of modern day entitlement....many of the replies in this thread highlight this flawed and immoral mindset quite admirably.

 

[Gasboy]

As good hearted as you may be, Gasboy, I believe you severely underestimate the scope of modern day entitlement....many of the replies in this thread highlight this flawed and immoral mindset quite admirably.

The vast majority of StarMade players will never visit the forums. The replies in this thread are only a very small subset of players.

I suspect that the people who "leech" are simply young. With maturity, many of them will change. You will always have people who will never pay for anything if they can get away with it.

Many people, who have played the free demo, will eventually become paying customers. Those that don't will leave and find a game they like better. The remaining few would never buy it anyways, so let them have it for free.

 

[jayman38]

I disagree with demo vs. paid game at this time for a number of reasons.
1. The game content is in flux, being an alpha game. Having different versions available to freely look at the progress of the game is a good, transparent way to prove that Schine is actually building a game, not just trying to make a quick buck with a tech demo.
2. Having grown up on "shareware", where the first "chapter" is available for free, I understand that it's good to give away the "majority" of the game as the first "chapter", but Starmade does not yet have enough content to have "chapters". The entire game still fits within a first "chapter".
3. The leech problem is probably far worse than anyone is willing to admit. Not only do you have regular computer users, but you have "entrepreneurs" who are perfectly willing to clone the game and sell copies on a street corner for $5. Maybe they include DRM solutions. Maybe they don't. Maybe they sell the demo as the full game. The game company loses out. By the time the buyer realizes that their copy is not legit, the entrepreneur has moved on and can't be found to be prosecuted for fraud.
4. Right now, the free availability of the game makes a cracked EXE pointless. Nobody is going to bother building a full-game crack for a game that is already free. Once you separate between demo and paid, someone will build a cracked core game and release it into the wild to convert the free demo into a fuller game, effectively making the game free again, for anyone willing to take that one, small, extra step. See point 3.

 

[NeonSturm]

I disagree with demo vs. paid game at this time for a number of reasons.
1. The game content is in flux, being an alpha game. Having different versions available to freely look at the progress of the game is a good, transparent way to prove that Schine is actually building a game, not just trying to make a quick buck with a tech demo.
2. Having grown up on "shareware", where the first "chapter" is available for free, I understand that it's good to give away the "majority" of the game as the first "chapter", but Starmade does not yet have enough content to have "chapters". The entire game still fits within a first "chapter".
3. The leech problem is probably far worse than anyone is willing to admit. Not only do you have regular computer users, but you have "entrepreneurs" who are perfectly willing to clone the game and sell copies on a street corner for $5. Maybe they include DRM solutions. Maybe they don't. Maybe they sell the demo as the full game. The game company loses out. By the time the buyer realizes that their copy is not legit, the entrepreneur has moved on and can't be found to be prosecuted for fraud.
4. Right now, the free availability of the game makes a cracked EXE pointless. Nobody is going to bother building a full-game crack for a game that is already free. Once you separate between demo and paid, someone will build a cracked core game and release it into the wild to convert the free demo into a fuller game, effectively making the game free again, for anyone willing to take that one, small, extra step. See point 3.

exactly!

Paying and then not being able to build up on your product the way you want is against human nature.
If you violate human nature, you create many problems.

​

How do you think about a free game with limited access to the game-identity (textures, unique visuals, the name "StarMade")?

 

[Edymnion]

Count me against a limited demo at this time.

Requiring payment to play the "real" game implies a level of finish and polish we do not currently have.

Right now, the game is buggy and constantly changing. This is acceptable because it is an alpha, and many people don't have anything beyond time invested in it (some of us have paid though in order to support Schine).

Once you start legit charging, people become entitled (and rightly so).

So no, save the limited demo and the paid full game for when the game is actually more or less finished. We need lots of testing right now more than anything else.

 

[Shaker]

Personally i think the demo/free version should be around till beta phase, after that a cut down version with maybe 1 system with planets/roids and creative mode turned on, also cant add to community content unless its the full version (limits the rubbish like pipe god)

Additionally, we haven't been very clear with where StarMade is going. We have planned features scattered around, vague statements describing what StarMade will be, but we've never provided a single, coherent, extensive document that shows current and potential customers Schine's end goal, vision for StarMade. This is something we're currently trying to address while we're restructuring Schine.

This is something i think you guys really need to sort out, hopefully im not sounding high and mighty but this power reworks thread has put a big spanner in the works for the playerbase and should be saved for beta phase.
The current game begs for playability, fixing factions, adding stuff to do.

With so many clone games coming out taking pieces of the pie, i hope the original can still make it through

 

[DukeofRealms]

and should be saved for beta phase.

Alpha is where things are ripped apart, shredded, replaced, rebalanced, removed and added. Beta is where we balance, bugfix, optimize and set into stone. Ripping systems up in beta indicates the development failed in alpha. This is how game development works, if you're wanting more stability, you'll need to return in beta.
[doublepost=1487026909,1487026185][/doublepost]

How do you think about a free game with limited access to the game-identity (textures, unique visuals, the name "StarMade")?

Once we hit beta, you will need to purchase the game to play it. This isn't an open source project, freeware or shareware, this is a normal, for profit, video game. We didn't spend the past 4 years of our time, we didn't invest our own money into this game for it to turn into a freeware with additional assets that could be purchased.

We have families to feed, rent and mortgages to pay and kids to raise. Schine is a company; we're here to generate revenue to continue and finish StarMade's development and generate profit. The world unfortunately doesn't run on magic and lollipops

 

[Shaker]

This is how game development works, if you're wanting more stability, you'll need to return in beta.

I dont care for stability, im waiting for some gameplay features like a whole bunch of people, ive done 600+ hours of mining and building, need something else