The crafting system sucks

[Byamarro]

Depends a lot if you think (RP is expensive) or not.

My 64 bit memory (4 bit in 16 slots) uses 9^3 space for logic blocks = about 600 of them.
And for it to be useful, you need it about 16 times = 9'600 logic blocks.

I always thought that things like RAM should be make with cheats. Why do You even try to craft all these logic gates. Main point in building logic circuits is building logic circuits, not gathering resources for them.

 

[Ithirahad]

You forgot 3. Offer large quantities of materials that could be more easily obtained in smaller quantities, but are difficult to obtain in the thousands.

That's kinda between the two... It's both a 'unique result,' in a sense, and an 'easier way to get things', in a sense.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

See this is what I was trying to say. Why bother? For both reasons you'd want to craft, either money or shipbuilding there simply is no point. It isn't the crafting that's the problem, it's the build block!

Agreed. Although it isn't necessarily the build block that is the problem. The actual problem, which this thread somehow is clouding, is that people have gotten used to getting everything they need in the first hour of playing the game.

If you no longer would just be able to salvage a space station to sell the blocks you then get by some shops (for about 20 million credits or more), the crafting system would make a lot more sense.

 

[Ithirahad]

Agreed. Although it isn't necessarily the build block that is the problem. The actual problem, which this thread somehow is clouding, is that people have gotten used to getting everything they need in the first hour of playing the game.

If you no longer would just be able to salvage a space station to sell the blocks you then get by some shops (for about 20 million credits or more), the crafting system would make a lot more sense.

You have a point, but that's not the issue... The problem is that, in such a situation, crafting things would be (and is) frustrating. The ingredients and recipes aren't very intuitive, and they require a ridiculous amount of different types of components.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

To solve that you would have to be able to get multiple blocks per recipe. Better ways to automate everything (salvage ai, filter blocks, cargo transfer) also wouldn't hurt.

 

[aceface]

the build block shouldn't go, it should just be not possible to mass delete after 6 hours of claiming the structure (quoting schema)

 

[Ithirahad]

To solve that you would have to be able to get multiple blocks per recipe. Better ways to automate everything (salvage ai, filter blocks, cargo transfer) also wouldn't hurt.

You know what REALLY wouldn't hurt? A recipe for basic hull that only requires a corresponding metal capsule, at a rate of around 1 capsule to 5 hull. And pulling the random reactor blocks out of the recipes.

 

[NeonSturm]

You need waste and high-quality materials.

Waste:

(not reversible for re-use for vitals)
You can always make generic out of quality, but not vice versa.

Most of the time you will be:

out of low-quality (station-hull can be heavy, wasteful drone spam or worn-down armoru)
as well as out of high-quality (ship components)​

Thus you have use for both and it will a healthy RP-friendly and environment perfectly supply-balanced (as you can only get so many vitals for that many mainly-hull low-tech stuf).
​

Thus you will never get all high-qualities back when disassembling (if it gets implemented) like in:

• 5 quality crystals + 6 generic grills ==assembling=>> reactor + 8 waste Crystal capsules (generic)
  
• reactor >>=dissembling== 4 quality crystals + 6 generic grills.

Refining ores should not give you for each 16 types a high and low quality (would blow it up), but mabye:

1 resource => 8 generic + 3 high-quality

1 <name> resource (ore) => 8 Metal capsule (generic) + 3 <name> capsule (quality metal)
1 <name> resource (shard) => 8 Crystal capsule (generic) + 3 <name> capsule (quality crystal)
1 <name> resource (rock) => 8 Mineral capsule (generic) + 3 <name> capsule (quality mineral)

4 Examples (ratio, not cost):
tech=0 : 10 generic, 0 quality (( the term low-tech ranges from 0..2 ))
tech=3 : 7 generic, 3 quality (( the term avg-tech ranges from 3..6 ))
tech=7 : 3 generic, 7 quality (( the term high-tech ranges from 7..9 ))
tech=10 : 0 generic, 10 quality (( the term ultra-tech equals 10 ))

​

Tech-levels:

HP blocks:

Basic Hull = 2
Glass, Doors = 2.5 (( .5 requires 2 cylces as 2.5+2.5 = 5 -- a number with less than configured(example) 2% loss ))
Advanced Hull = 5
Shields = 10​

Other vitals:

Thruster = 3
Power Tank = 5
Reactor = 8
Jump = 10​

Tech-level numbers are just (more or less sane) examples!!!​

How this affects the crafting costs:

If reactors require metal grills (made with generics) and crystal circuits (made with high-quality), the system automatically balances the number of grills and circuits required to produce the tech-level of the reactor.


There can be a (not round-up) discount for using the correct quality material type (made from the right quality type capsule)

If a reactor requires for example 4 crystals as 3.2 quality and 1.8 generic crystals, you have to pay 4 quality and 1 generic unless you produce at higher numbers (with enhancers)

​

Details for Math-peoples:

Possibly required workaround when a reactor should require for example 6.5 metal grills and 4.5 crystal circuits, it will require

1. round-up costs for low numbers(7 metal grills and 5 crystal circuits)
2. down-tech high quality materials(6 metal grills and 5 crystal circuits)
   
3. or have the crafting system can remembers a half grill for the player, structure or factory or produce 2 at once.

If a reactor requires for example 4 crystals as 3.2 quality, 1.8 generic and has a 20% Sintyr discount,
you can produce 6 reactors for the cost of 5*quality and 6*generic​

 

[Theck]

Pasting from another crafting thread.

I think one problem with the crafting system is more a matter of usability. For example, I think it would be great if we can load a recipe and we're able to double click in an intermediate stage block to load it's recipe. For example if I want to make an AstroTechnoBeam I'll need some Parsen Storage Node; I want to be able to double clic the "Parsen Storage Node" and it'll load it's recipe.

 

[ltmauve]

Again, it's not clear what needs to made in order to get stuff. If we organize things into categories, it should make things easier for players.
So categories would be: basic systems (power, shields, thrust), weapons, effects, utilities (supply/drain, astrotech, salvager), decorations.
So basic systems use black OR white
and weapons use blue OR green materials
effects use purple OR red materials
utilities use orange OR yellow materials
and by "OR" I mean the recipes can all accept either of those colors. Give us a bit of flexibility.
decoration materials would depend on the color you wanted.
And let's have logical progression. A weapons computer should take weapons modules.
Also, we will need far more hull than metal grills or mesh. The base unit in crafting should be hull.

 

[Ithirahad]

Again, it's not clear what needs to made in order to get stuff. If we organize things into categories, it should make things easier for players.
So categories would be: basic systems (power, shields, thrust), weapons, effects, utilities (supply/drain, astrotech, salvager), decorations.
So basic systems use black OR white
and weapons use blue OR green materials
effects use purple OR red materials
utilities use orange OR yellow materials
and by "OR" I mean the recipes can all accept either of those colors. Give us a bit of flexibility.
decoration materials would depend on the color you wanted.
And let's have logical progression. A weapons computer should take weapons modules.
Also, we will need far more hull than metal grills or mesh. The base unit in crafting should be hull.

Yes! I personally thought that it would work this way when the new ores were announced, but... Nope. Everything's random, and arbitrary metal grills and meshes were used instead of hull, which is this game's base block, and always has been, and always should be.

 

[ltmauve]

Here's a proposal I threw together quickly for the basic systems. It's probably a bit too simple, I could probably give each element on the levels another ingredient that's different for each one, but hey, it's still better then the rat's nest we have now. Also, needs some quantities.

 

[NeonSturm]

Vitals should require the L2 circuit once.

L1 is more for logic or decorative stuff - else I agree on this.

At least as an alternative for the more PvP less economy servers some may want.
EDIT: The more satisfied those simple-brainers are, the faster we others can get/keep a more complex rat nest :D

Maybe not a rat nest, but it would help to relax the debates what complexity would be good.

 

[ltmauve]

I mean, basic vitals you probably want to churn out. But for effects, weapons and utilities you probably don't want them that easy to get.

Mergedit: So, I managed to come up with a full road map for everything you need to make a ship. It's surprisingly sparse, but that's because most things follow the exact same rule and I didn't feel like putting it down a bazillion times.

Also dangit I got the weapon module wrong. It should be from green/blue circuit L2.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

Hmm... A simple and a complex? That would work!

Please add this to the game! @NeonSturm , add this as a suggestion please! You and I could then discuss a thread with all of our, and if somelne else has a good idea, he/she could help too!

Seriously, I'd love to work together to create a suggestion thread together.

 

[NeonSturm]

For the large one:

Instead of 11 capsules you get 8 Material Capsules and 3 Named Material Capsules

8/11 {Metal, Crystal, Mineral} Capsule
3/11 Named {Metal, Crystal, Mineral} Capsule​

From these, you build T1 mesh or circuit, T2 grill or storage node, ... what is the T3 metal?​

In easy mode:

Instead of 11 capsules you get 1 Mesh, 1 Circuit or 1 rock and 1 named Paint directly

Mesh + Rock = hull.
Paint + Hull = coloured hull.
Hull + more mesh = hardened hull.
Circuit + Mesh = ???
Circuit + Pain = Named Circuit?

Do we really want rock inside ship-cores?

Especially if 5 rock-containing things are required?
Probably it should just inherit the resourced from thrust,power,tank,shield,regen and give you back the rock - what else should happen if we get individual mass per block? :p​

Some recipes produce 1 or 2 more for every 8 you produce when you have the right raw shard/ore/rock in the factories inventory.​

 

[FunnyBunny14]

For the large one:

Instead of 11 capsules you get 8 Material Capsules and 3 Named Material Capsules​

Could you please explain what you mean?

My thoughts
For simple mode:
I was thinking more along the lines of having only the intermediate steps removed (active processor, etc.), and only let it use crystal circuits, metal mesh and capsules in the crafting recipe.
Possible nerf: factories wouldn't be linkable when using the simple recipes.
Definite nerf: they wouldn't get a bonus.

For advanced mode:
It should be a more organised version of what it is now, with tabs, links and all sorts of other things. It should use all the intermediate crafting components.
Possible buff: factories would be linkable when using advanced recipes.
Definite buff: they would use less resources or get extra item(s) every so many cycles.


Important!
Factories should only be allowed to change their mode when they have no items in the and when they aren't linked.

Edit: Why is this funny?

 

[Megacrafter127]

having only the intermediate steps removed (active processor, etc.)

I generally agree with this part, if they remain for decorational purposes, or can simply be used as the respective other circuits.