The Advanced Combat Proposal - TID

    ImperialDonut

    Overlord of the North Pole
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    My EarthGov ships: http://star-made.org/content/earthgov-shipyards-theimperialdonut


    My Halo fleet project: http://star-made.org/content/unsc-shipyard-theimperialdonut

    My blue UI mod: http://star-made.org/content/donuts-blue-ui-mod

    My other proposals: http://star-made.org/content/donuts-suggestion-thread-holograms-planets-lots-more




    (I decided to give this its own topic since it has pretty much grown too big to keep in my suggestion thread)

    - 6/6/2013 Overhauled for added idea's, better layout and moved to own topic.



    Warning: this is a pretty extensive proposal with a lot of text and explaining, the concept isn't all that complicated, but I wanted to explain it as clearly as I felt I could without leaving out anything that might sound good in my head but might forget to mention.

    =[ Index ]=

    Yes, it actually needs an Index...

    1. ?Intro
    2. Technical Stuff
    3. Weapon Classes
    4. Weapon Classes Continuation
    5. Recap
    6. Missiles
    7. Weapon Proposals
    8. Defenses
    9. Desintegrators
    10. Examples
    11. Afterthoughts



    1. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    =[ Advanced Combat Proposal ]=

    This proposal was thought up over a long time in my hope for Starmade to be something more than a simple lego's sandbox where plonking down more blocks = more win. Instead, a game that new players will be eased into through simple mechanics at first and that grows more and more advanced the further you get into its mechanics would be much more enjoyable for all players in the long run.

    Not unlike minecraft I would like to see Starmade start with very simple mechanics (punching down a tree vs. slapping a few simple blocks on a core) and grow into much more advanced mechanics (redstone circuits vs. the below proposed advanced combat mechanics).

    (Note that this is a long-term vision for Starmade and is not meant to be viewed as a quick suggestion for next week, nor is it meant to tell Schema how to build his game. It is a poposal for tha game's combat no more, no less.)

    Here are all my thoughts on how Starmade could achieve much better combat, ship-designing and balancing through a bunch of basic changes and additions:



    2. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    =[ Technical Stuff ]=

    First off, a few technical things would need to change for this plan:

    - Small energy projectiles should disperse over a tiny radius on impact, reducing the amount of single missing or damaged blocks and distributing damage more evenly, resulting in a better looking and more realistic feeling system.

    - A missile's explosion radius on impact needs to be obstructed by blocks so that multiple layers of armor can actually help against missiles by absorbing a portion of the blast. So when a missile hits, the first layer will take full damage but any layer after that will only receive damage if the layer in front of it is destroyed.

    - Invert the fire-rate scaling, bigger weapons that fire faster too just aren't balanced and discourage creative design. So I think weapons should fire slower the bigger they get, not enough to offset the damage increase per block but enough to force ship-designers to balance between fire-rate and damage potential.

    (This would make a lot more sense than having both increase with scale, smaller weapons systems would be built for fire rate and bigger ones for damage, this would force players to balance their need for spammy-fire against sheer damage potential to break shield or armor tanks.)

    - To give everyone a decent fighting chance, drastically reduce the average regeneration rate of shields in general and increase shield capacity by the same factor (or much more). Many of the proposed changes will pull the focus from constant damage to seperate volley damage, making wearing down a shield the main thing instead of mindlessly matching the enemy player's shield regeneration rate with your weapon output. This gives smaller ships a much better chance at taking down a bigger one if they fight and build their ships well.

    - Get rid of the current weapon's or rename/remake them into something that fits in the proposed system, they won't fit in their current state, find out why below.



    3. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    =[ Weapon Classes ]=

    Now for the biggest proposed change; I propose dividing types of weapons over different ship scales, meaning that through flexible size constraints (minimum and maximum sizes) you can limit a weapon to a certain type of use. I see it like this: minimum sizes are absolute, you cannot fire the weapon under it's minimum size. Maximum sizes are relaxed, meaning that the weapon is still usable after that limit, but weapons will hardly increase in power after it (in a curvy way).

    For instance; if I want a small pulse laser on my fighter I can do this since they have a very low minimum size, but I could also scale this weapon up to around its maximum size that allows for a slower firing, but more powerfull adaptation of this weapon for a bigger ship.

    Now, if I wanted to go even bigger I would have to use a whole different weapon system for every size range I want to build in, these weapon systems would have increasing minimum and maximum sizes and a look & feel that would match their class.

    The minimum size would also have the potential for bigger classes of weapons to be disabled in a firefight, since when a block is destroyed in a 1x1 line it might drop both halves below the minimum size, making players consider embedding their weapons within their ships more for better protection, making ships design more interesting in the process.



    4. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    =[ Weapon Classes Continuation ]=

    Now all this would obviously require a lot of new weapons to be introduced into the game, these might be truely unique to their class (maybe a unique sort of EMP weapon in the large scale class, or a cheap newby weapon in the smallest class) or just an all-round weapon that has a version for every class, something like perhaps small, medium and large pulse lasers.

    These different versions of the same weapon type shouldn't just be aesthetically different, but actually be balanced for their class, so while small pulse lasers might have fast-moving and inaccurate purple projectiles, medium lasers might be slower, red and have a tighter cone of fire.

    So while some classes might be iterations of themselves in a different class, they should feel somewhat different to make the fact that you are basically dividing them into different sizes less obvious.



    Here's an example of what I had in mind for the class sytem for projectile weapons:



    These classes are limited to a size-range, but not a specific role, you could have a smaller weapon class on a big ship to complement its bigger main weapon types, or you could fit that same weapon to a smaller ship as its main weapon. You could even construct one of these smaller ships in such a way that it is completely dedicated to housing a way oversized class for its actual size to sacrifice protection and other abilities for sheer firepower.

    All this would encourage incredible creativity and ingenuity amongst players to optimally use all classes of weapons in all kinds of ship sizes and attack strategies, not unlike 'fits' in EVE Online, folks will try to find the best possible design for any situation while all taking a different approach to it.



    5. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    =[ Recap ]=

    A really quick recap:

    - Energy projectile dispersal

    - Block explosion absorption

    - Tougher armor

    - Reverse fire-rate scaling

    - Minimum and maximum weapon sizes

    - Addition of weapon classes

    - All weapon classes usable for all ship sizes

    - Weapons can be disabled when reduced in size to below minimum

    - Lots of new weapons



    6. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    =[ Missiles ]=

    Now for missiles; they would benefit more from not being in size classes but having an allround min/max size limit (like 5-30 or 20-50 depending on the missile type), incentivising designers to use more missiles over a few incredibly powerfull ones (while there might still be something like a cruise missile class that has like a 500-1000 or so size limit).

    Small ships would fire a missile or two while big battleships and capitals might fire volley's of 50 missiles at a time. (not the most server-friendly of proposal's but I'm guessing the impact will be minimal with only a few capitals being anywhere at a time at most.)



    7. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    =[ Weapon Proposals ]=

    Some idea's on possible weapons:

    ---===projectile weapons===---

    - Pulse Laser, shoots rapidfire energy bolts at high energy cost but limited range and speed, the perfect all-round weapon in any class for any size of ship.

    - Beam Laser, fires a constant beam that has the potential to do large amounts damage over time but at an almost ridiculously high energy cost, best used in small bursts to conserve power (small variant can target missiles to take them down).

    - Gatling Cannon, noobweapon to start out with, to ease players into the game by having a nice and high firerate and no energy cost in return for low damage (small class).

    - Magnetic Blaster, intended for fighters and frigates, emits a powerfull magnetic shockwave that does heavy damage up close but quickly dissipates over a short distance, a sort of spacefighter shotgun (small/medium classes).

    - Autocannon, looks and functions kind of like the Gatling Cannon but with energy consumption and for all the weapon tiers (may require ammo if it is ever implemented?).

    - Energy Projector, fires a tiny beam of highly condensed particles at the target that drastically expand near it and create a small magnetic shockwave that does medium damage to shields, the space equivalent of flak AA (medium/large classes) (medium version can target missiles to take them down in large groups).

    - Magnetic Accelerators, accelerates massive projectiles at high speeds to mitigate enemy shielding and inflict heavy damage upon armor. It compensated for this massive damage by having a horribly slow reload time (heavy/huge classes).

    - Plasma Launcher, launches a large ball of plasma that can track the targeted enemy, wreaks havock on shielding but is quite slow and can be easily dodged by a maneuverable craft (medium/large/huge classes).

    ---===missiles===---

    - Dumbfire Missile, almost a selfcontained mass accelerator in itself, this missile constantly accelerates as it progresses until it either hits a target's shields or burns itself out at its maximum range and self-destructs.

    - Targeting Missile, a missile that locks on to the targeted ship and will find the most direct and unobstructed route to it, they are fast and can catch most slower fighters but don't do a whole lot of damage to anything bigger than a frigate.

    - Burrowing Missiles, a missile that explodes in two stages, the outer layer temporarily breaches the shield so that the core of the missiles may impact on the armor of the targeted ship and do some serious damage.

    - Cluster Missiles, in principle the same as the Targeting Missile, these missiles have higher size limits but split up into multiple smaller missiles after launch, perfect for avoiding most of the enemy's countermeasures but at a low rate of fire.

    - Decoy Missiles, these missiles can be launched alongside other missiles to protect them from countermeasures, or simply serve as a distraction to enemy ships frantically trying to avoid getting blown up.

    - Cruise Missile, massive weapon system that launches incredibly powerfull missiles that will overwhelm anything smaller than a battleship's shields, these missiles are only mounted on the biggest of ships to take out their counterparts.

    These are just a few idea's and don't serve as an absolute guide to what should be done, but as a source of inspiration to draw from and improve the game.



    8. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    =[ Defenses ]=

    Have weapons damage types follow one of two main types of damage: damage that impacts on shielding and damage that mitigates shielding, either of these damage types have a chance of reflect off of shielding. You can boost your resistance to either of these damage types by either simply adding more shielding against impacting weapons, more armor against mitigating weapons or adding boosters to your shielding to increase te chance of it reflecting off of them.

    As mentioned earlier one can use certain types of weapons like the small beam laser and the particle projector to counter missiles, these are best mounted on a turret with and AI set to only shoot at incoming missiles.

    This allows larger ships (or even smaller ones to an extent) to build anti-missile turrets on their ships to combat incoming missiles, a system sorely needed if some of the proposed missile systems make it into the game.

    9. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    =[ Desintegrators ]=

    As a fun little thing on the side, disintegrators could use a bit of an overhaul. If you where to make their damage scale in size (Something like: base damage*blocks^1.3) with a max limit to prevent nukes, a small fighter could sneakily deploy something like a 8x2x2 bomb to a capital ships unprotected side and deal massive damage to shielding and underlying armor.

    This would instantly make fighterbombers a great tactic to use and encourage capital ship designers to think harder about how to design and build their capital ship.

    10. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    =[ Examples ]=

    All in all, all this would make Starmade's combat infinately more interesting and varied, forcing people to think about what type of weapon to use for what kind of ship in what kind of situation. There are virtually millions of things you can do with an advanced combat system like this and here are just some of the things you might see:

    - Cruisers built from the ground up to have minimal shielding, adequate maneuvrability and a huge amount of excess power production to facilitate a massively oversized weapon for its size from the 'huge' class of weapons.

    - Carriers with dozens of small turrets (so high fire rates) to fight off enemy fighters while launching their own bombers to deliver devastating bombs to the enemy capital ship.

    - Battleships with tremendous frontal armor plating to survive headon impacts of mass accelerators that manage to pierce its initial layer of shielding while sporting its own 'large' class pulselasers to send a steady stream of damage back.

    - Fighterbombers with small pulse lasers (and therefore high fire-rates) to combat enemy fighters on their way to the enemy mothership to deliver their payload.

    - Cruisers that sacrifice their maneuvrability to conserve power for 'large' class pulse lasers to serve as snipers in longer range engagements, not the most powerfull weapon out there, but it can fire within the next few seconds to deliver a fast second, third or fourth salvo to the ambushed target.

    - Frigates with a very sensible 'medium' class beam laser as main gun to dish out some damage and 3 'medium' class particle projector turrets to scare the living daylights out smaller enemy fighters.

    - Battleships that choose a lot of 'medium' class weapons over a few powerfull ones for their high firerate when combating enemy medium sized ships, aswell as a relatively weak shield with lots of boosters to make most all smaller class weapons reflect off its shields.

    - And about 50 other examples that pop up off the top of my head.



    =[ Afterthoughts ]=

    - All of this will completely change the way players look at ships, no more bigger = better, since smaller ships can easily take out slightly bigger ones if they are built and piloted well by their player. Fighting gargantuism has been a popular topic for a while, well I think this will eleminate the natural urge of folks to keep building bigger and bigger to match or beat their opponent's shield/weapon regen/dps rates. Cpaital ships will still be awesome, but they will be a rarity instead of a neccesity.



     
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    its COOL ideas, but it will take a big time, hmm starmade needs more programmers and more money ...
     
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    I have made lots of games over the years, but Java is one of those languages i didnt learn. Plus, I think starmade is Schema\'s baby, and he probably wants it to stay that way.
     
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    Nothing wrong with getting help though, it\'ll still be his creation and his vision.
     
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    True, chevy, but a lot of programmers like to accomplish things in certain ways. Some ways might be cleaner looking, compact, expandible, inexpensive to process, hacky and some ways might be the exact opposite, or any combination of all of these attributes. Thats why some programmers have a hard time working with others, as they might not think their code is up to snuff, or just needlessly complicated/hacky. It\'s the reason why companies that do programming have a code standards.

    But i\'d like to help :3. Even if it\'s just bug fixes/optimizations.
     

    MrFURB

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    Once again, Donut illustrates his thoughtfulness. I\'ll agree with mostly everything here, and what I don\'t agree with I\'ll call petty differences and move on.
     
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    While I think it\'s difficult to predict the result of bringing lots of new weapon classes (stats and firing modes would have to be experimented with) I completely agree with the prerequisite changes.

    Increasing damage while reducing rate of fire is an excellent skill mechanic , helping both pilots with good aim and dodging skills. Brute-forcing with high rate of fire would be comparatively inefficient , but deter unspecialized harassers easier.

    Shields should indeed trade their regeneration for more capacity. Though it would be simpler to manage if shields would halt or decrease their regeneration as they get hit more frequently. Withdrawing to regenerate should be a fully committed move and also sometimes not an option.

    Missile damage mitigation is necessary once shields become easier to drain. Internal layers of heavy armor would further differentiate fragile attack vessels from defensive ships with redundant subsystems built to hold the line on the battlefield.
     
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    like i said earlier, shields need a re-work, numbers need to be changed to % and regen time changed to a Resistance rating... all shields(Depending on MASS) will regenerate over time... i dislike the fact that ships can simply just regenerate in battle...
     

    ImperialDonut

    Overlord of the North Pole
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    @ Datoska, Chevalleis & Alviss; Schema plans to bring in some help later on once he nails down the engine I believe.

    @ Furb; Tnx Furb ; )

    @ Stakhanov; It\'s always difficult ofc to know what exactly will happen, but I think we can agree that Starmade just needs more and much better balanced weaponry, besides the fact that a little more complexity for the player that gets further into the game couldn\'t hurt either.

    @ Akeadis; Numbers will always remain, since its a lot easier to finely balance out weapons and systems if you keep a high number in there to mess with, besides, the player should be able to see how powerfull his shielding is compared to other builds. You can display the shield status as a percentage, but thats basically what th UI does now with the shield bar.

    And yes, shield regeneration mid-combat shouldn\'t be a standard, rely on resistance and capacity unless you equip a special module that can give you a small shield boost at the expense of a lot of power or a consumable. This will remove the need for players to build massive reactors to power only their shields too.
     
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    Mmm, I still think shield regen is important, but it should be a function of current shield remaining hp and be a curve (max regen at 33% [Yes, eve again, sorry])
     

    ImperialDonut

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    But I still think regen shouldn\'t play nearly as big a role in combat, thats why I suggested to move active regeneration to a special kind of module, while keeping an all-round shield regen to regenerate your capacity out of combat. You won\'t be able to rely on the standard regen in combat, but you can use a type of shield booster to give your shields a sturdy boost at the expense of a ton of power or some kind of consumable.
     
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    or even, just a thought, stabilization? For weapons & shields? Overusing them to do certain tasks could possibly risk the \"CPU\" or w/e it is to go offline for 5-40 seconds. hell this could lead to a whole new shield system... shield generators... shield resistance.. shield stabilizers... shield strength modules... loads of stuff
     
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    Turrets should be protected by its host\'s shields, it would make bigger ships harder to destroy, because you cant pick off the turrets from a distance, and would make pirate bases less of a \"free money gift\" even for tiny fighters.
     

    ImperialDonut

    Overlord of the North Pole
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    tho I like being able to target turrets specifically. Shields could be shared amongst a ship and any object docked to it, but since shields are less of a singular obstacle with armor becoming more important and some weapon types penetrating them too, I guess you still could. (like the name btw ^^)



    @ Akeadis; I would like a system as advanced as this and it could be worked out into something very nice, but I was talking about the Minecraft way of easing players into it and gradually building in complexity, I don\'t really see how to do this with an overly complicated shield system. Unless you where to require them to use the now a lot more viable armor plating and reserve shields for bigger ship classes and folks that are further along into the game (I\'ll think about maybe adding something like it in).
     
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    Counting the future possible ideas of RP (Role Play) sides, there can be 2 sets of each type of weapon, with different color based lasers, for example the one said here is all in the \"negative\" side, being Red, Orange, Yellow, Brown, and Grey, (ignoring white) all of them are \"hot/warm\" type of colors, while the other side\'s weapons can be \"cold\" Blue, Green, Cyan (blue with more white, sky blue), Purple (blue to red purple, being more blue than red) and Silver (light grey, also a cold color).



    So that would bake 5 hot \"dark side\" colors for the evil/pirate style players/factions, and 5 cold colors for the good/police style players/factions.



    Also imagine how well you will notice the differences between your own (or your side\'s) weapon bullets and your opponent\'s (or their entire side) bullets, you will be able to see everything much better, see who\'s firing at who, aid the one you see that is outnumbered, and such. It also looks great, that\'s why it\'s even used in Mass Effect 3 (blue vs red), and any game nowadays, red vs green, and such.

    This difference would also bring the variation and reason to fight of the \"good vs evil\"...
     
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    I looked into making a mod like this that was based on a similar premise, but I kept running into a bunch of hard-coded block properties. If Schema were to make things like weapon stats and shield stats part of the block config file, I\'d like to make a mod that increases weapon variety, improves crafting, and deals with the issue of bigger = better (major points: splash damage, diminishing returns in weapon/subsystem groups, less maneuverability/speed).

    Also on my wishlist is a way for players to create their own shops, and for NPC shops to carry infinite amounts of certain essential blocks. I could tie the former into my crafting overhaul to make player-run shops an important part of the multiplayer game, and the latter is especially important in case you get shot down or need to get started on a major server. There really shouldn\'t be anything that results in you without a ship core, a handful of power blocks, and a few thrusters that also leaves you without the means of obtaining those items.