Tank VS Mech

    what do you think? 1 mech 2 tank


    • Total voters
      68
    Joined
    Jan 16, 2015
    Messages
    298
    Reaction score
    81
    mech would also fall apart pretty easily,
    because they are connected by 2 blocks, 1 of them breaks and you lost like 1 fifth of your hole mech.
    tanks have only tracks to lose, they don't contain anything of importance, besides movability.
    But tanks are kind of the same in that sense. What with having a turret on top. I mean essentially a mech is a tank with legs. Although if you said a mech would have more exposed joints that could be easily shot it'd make sense. But yeah once you disconnect the core from its ability to move or fire weapons, tank or mech it is screwed.
    Plus if it's a starmade mech/tank the legs and treads mean squat really.

    But again, too many unknown variables in the OPs question to provide an answer. I mean who fires first?
    The mech snipes the tanks from a distance? The tanks get the drop on the mech? What are the weapons used?
    Maybe they do a double knock out and all die at the same time?
    Maybe a wild Snorlax appears?

    WE NEED A SCENARIO HERE DAMMIT.
    It's like asking what is the sound of one hand clapping but you're actually using a foot..... :confused:

    Oh internets, why do you hurt my brain so!!!! o_O
     

    Tunk

    Who's idea was this?
    Joined
    Sep 8, 2013
    Messages
    363
    Reaction score
    153
    • Purchased!
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    Scenario not really needed,
    Mechs are the equivalent of a dude balancing a chair on two legs with a 40kg pack, who has to fire his rifle without falling over.
    As cool as mechs are, they just aren't practical in any way :(

    Just like to add, there is a reason 'walkers' in many robotics competitions have a 50% to 200% weight advantage in their weight classes.
    They just can't compete with other robots of equivalent weight, and very rarely do they even pass the first rounds (unless the team is very heavily abusing the definition of walker, for example by using a shuffler).
     
    Joined
    Sep 4, 2013
    Messages
    723
    Reaction score
    200
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 5
    Scenario not really needed,
    Mechs are the equivalent of a dude balancing a chair on two legs with a 40kg pack, who has to fire his rifle without falling over.
    As cool as mechs are, they just aren't practical in any way :(

    Just like to add, there is a reason 'walkers' in many robotics competitions have a 50% to 200% weight advantage in their weight classes.
    They just can't compete with other robots of equivalent weight, and very rarely do they even pass the first rounds (unless the team is very heavily abusing the definition of walker, for example by using a shuffler).

    EDIT:
    This one is newer
     
    Last edited:

    Tunk

    Who's idea was this?
    Joined
    Sep 8, 2013
    Messages
    363
    Reaction score
    153
    • Purchased!
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    Yep bigdog and its variants will be excellent pack mules.
     

    DrTarDIS

    Eldrich Timelord
    Joined
    Jan 16, 2014
    Messages
    1,114
    Reaction score
    310
    ...tanks are MECHanised infantry...

    But if you mean "wheeled vehicle(wheeles wrapped in tracks or not)" vs. "articulated walker" 9/10 times a wheeled vehicle wins.

    on "hull down": No reason a bipedal walker can't go "prone" just like a typical bullet-catcher jarhead dumb enough to be out of cover.
    on"firing a gun while balancing on a 2 legged chair": see belly-down, consider firing stance, and indeed momentum(assuming even a light "walk" # tons-in motion is still #tons-in-motion.)
    on "bipeds sink": Hexapods, quadrupeds, and yes snowshoes.

    Anthropomorphic forms are efficient in many ways, but only because a biological axle isn't really a thing.
     

    jayman38

    Precentor-Primus, pro-tempore
    Joined
    Jul 13, 2014
    Messages
    2,518
    Reaction score
    787
    • Purchased!
    • Thinking Positive
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    She's angular and stick-like enough for StarMade blocks, but we don't have ponytail blocks.
     
    Joined
    Jun 12, 2013
    Messages
    27
    Reaction score
    5
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    Tanks and mechs are both cool. in my opinion. Although tanks are more practical and efficient in real life.

    ...tanks are MECHanised infantry...
    Tanks are like a combination of cavalry and armored warships. Cavalry generally have a speed and mobility advantage over infantry. Say like the medieval ages if you were a knight you could move around and smack guys with your sword or a lance. You could also ride to battle and dismount and fight as heavy infantry, or if you say the Hungarians you could ride and around shoot arrows at people. Same sort of logic with tanks.

    The earliest tanks were often called landships or compared to battleships because they were armored and had multiple gunports and were pretty much unopposed when they first came out. Generally tanks are big, have fire power, plus armor and protection.

    however tanks aren't Infantry, they their a mix between cavalry and ships(but on land). Mechanized infantry would just be squad of dudes riding in APC or IFV into battle with the tanks like these guys from the NVA.

    However tanks on their on are pretty vulnerable and that is were combined arms warfare comes in because the APCs and IFVs allow the infantry to ride into battle with protect while the same time a vehicle like an IFV can support infantry while tanks can provide fire support.
     

    Keptick

    Building masochist
    Joined
    Sep 26, 2013
    Messages
    4,062
    Reaction score
    1,841
    • Councillor 2 Gold
    • Railman Gold
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    Mechs in sci-fi are generally a lot more powerful than tanks because they usually posses overwhelmingly better technology. If you were to implement the same tech in a tank (weaponry, shielding, power plant, jump jets, etc...) then the tank would probably win.

    I won't deny that mechs are way cooler though :P
     
    Joined
    Jul 4, 2013
    Messages
    88
    Reaction score
    33
    Interesting Topic i must say.
    I would go with the the "who fires first usually wins".
    Also i totally agree keptick that in most Sci-Fi, mechs represent top level technology.
    I mean most late ww2 tanks would have had enough fire power to damage or destroy modern battle tanks (not neccessary from the front though), the modern tank would have the definite advantage due to computerized targeting systems and stabilized firing systems, and most likely a higher speed an maneuverability.

    The only reason for a "walking" tank (or mach) could be special terrain where tracks are no good. Where you have to make steps over pretty uneven terrain.
    Other than that both fill basically the same role and there is no reason why any tank (with the same armament and armor) would be inferior to a mech.

    Some may argue that a mech could take a step to the side to "evade" attacks.
    Well... yes that is something a tank can not do... they can try to keep moving and changing direction te be a harder target, but if we assume the tanks have an equivalent targeting systems like the mechs... i would say they are pretty close matched.

    The issue is ground pressure. In most sci-fi mechs are roughly humanoid. Some people already talked about that walking upright makes them a better target, but also mentioned that they can go prone and can even crawl along to move. But their default mode is walking upright and that is when they have their whole weight on two smaller areas and depending on the ground might sink in.
    There is a reason tanks have tracks. To disperse the weight over a as large as possible surface. Assuming the mech weights as much as the comparable tank (due to the armor) it will put this weight to a very much smaller area.

    And i must also agree: mechs are very much cooler than tanks.

    Sci Fi does not need to always make perfect sense.
    A good story often trumps realism.

    No thread derailing intended:
    But is it not cooler to see our dashing hero pilot his tiny starfighter against the enemies giant "murder death machine" and having some one on his tail that he cant shake without performing some fancy flying maneuvers that almost look like he would be affected by an atmosphere.
    When in reality he could just engage his position thrusters to turn his ship 180° while still flying in his original direction and fire at the enemy.
    Or that capital ships have to be slow and have a strange tendency to behave like naval ships, while there is no reason for them not to be as fast (or even faster depending on how long they have been accelerating) than the fighter.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Master_Artificer

    Ithirahad

    Arana'Aethi
    Joined
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages
    4,150
    Reaction score
    1,330
    • Purchased!
    • Top Forum Contributor
    • Legacy Citizen 8
    Tanks are really the only viable vehicle out of the two, so my vote is obvious...
     

    Keptick

    Building masochist
    Joined
    Sep 26, 2013
    Messages
    4,062
    Reaction score
    1,841
    • Councillor 2 Gold
    • Railman Gold
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    The question about mech vs tank on that tread it´s so poor, for urban combat a mech it´s "superior" than a tank, check this video to understand me better: a mech can "hide" to shot like a human, a tank can´t do that.

    In the other hand at plains a tank can be far superior that a mech on combat. I can not vote untill the creator said where the combat happens.
    A tank is a lot lower than a mech, so it'd actually be easier to hide :P. Just roll THROUGH buildings instead of hiding behind them.
     
    Joined
    Jan 1, 2015
    Messages
    923
    Reaction score
    292
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Purchased!
    • Thinking Positive
    I just want to point out that the RPGs killing tanks are typically being fired either at APCs, not tanks, or at T55s (like in the above video) or some such very early tank. T55s have simple iron armor that is pretty much butter to a shaped charge like a simple RPG. Modern APCs are actually much harder to destroy with such an RPG than early tanks, as they use spaced armor, ceramic layers, etc., specifically to make them harder to penetrate with an RPG.

    A modern tank is a completely different story. Such an RPG fired at say, an Abrams, would 99% of the time do absolutely zero damage other than making a tiny surface hole and mussing the paint. The larger wire guided missile in the third video above would have no problems taking out modern APCs, but even it could have problems versus an Abrams (or equivalent modern tank). To take out the Abrams, it would need a lucky shot, or be able to hit it in the side or rear.

    To make matters even harder for the missile crews, nowadays a few tanks (in the Israeli army for example) are starting to be equipped with active missile countermeasures. Those countermeasures will make tanks 'extremely' hard for single missiles to take out. And unlike the third video above where they shot off several missiles then took their leisurely time to pack up and leave, versus a modern trained army experienced with tank and missile warfare, they would not get off a second shot. They would be engaged with tank fire within seconds of them firing the first missile, very abruptly ending that video. The Israelis learned that trick in 1968.

    Mechs would be more agile than tanks, able to take cover more easily. However they would sport 'very' light armor (relatively speaking), likely lighter even than an APC. Very likely armor piercing 50 caliber bullets could defeat their armor. Moreover, despite their ability to lean around corners, they would none the less be 'big' targets. It is perfectly feasible for infantry to carry 50 caliber sniper rifles, and hitting those big targets will be easy even for the untrained. I am 100% convinced that mechs will remain solely within gaming, anime, and movies, and will never be part of an actual military.

    Powered armor infantry on the other hand is a very different story. Exoskeleton enhanced armored suits could in theory allow a soldier to wear much better armor and carry heavier weaponry. They will be vastly harder for an ill trained and ill equipped insurgent to deal with. Even modern militaries will find themselves desperately wanting similar powered armor so as to be able to counter their opponents powered armor on an equal footing, else they will find themselves on a very loosing end of the attrition equation.

    The design of those powered suits will likely be quite different than how they are typically envisaged by most. Most people see them as being big hulky clumsy systems using motors and gears. Such a suit would never be willingly used by an experienced soldier. The powered armor that will be used will not be larger than say a NASA space suit, and very likely will be even less bulky than that. It will probably have soft armor, not rigid, so as to permit maximum flexibility and coverage. It will be almost as dexterous as an unarmored soldier and not much larger.
     
    Last edited:

    Keptick

    Building masochist
    Joined
    Sep 26, 2013
    Messages
    4,062
    Reaction score
    1,841
    • Councillor 2 Gold
    • Railman Gold
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    I just want to point out that the RPGs killing tanks are typically being fired either at APCs, not tanks, or at T55s (like in the above video) or some such very early tank. T55s have simple iron armor that is pretty much butter to a shaped charge like a simple RPG. Modern APCs are actually much harder to destroy with such an RPG than early tanks, as they use spaced armor, ceramic layers, etc., specifically to make them harder to penetrate with an RPG.

    A modern tank is a completely different story. Such an RPG fired at say, an Abrams, would 99% of the time do absolutely zero damage other than making a tiny surface hole and mussing the paint. The larger wire guided missile in the third video above would have no problems taking out modern APCs, but even it could have problems versus an Abrams (or equivalent modern tank). To take out the Abrams, it would need a lucky shot, or be able to hit it in the side or rear.

    To make matters even harder for the missile crews, nowadays a few tanks (in the Israeli army for example) are starting to be equipped with active missile countermeasures. Those countermeasures will make tanks 'extremely' hard for single missiles to take out. And unlike the third video above where they shot off several missiles then took their leisurely time to pack up and leave, versus a modern trained army experienced with tank and missile warfare, they would not get off a second shot. They would be engaged with tank fire within seconds of them firing the first missile, very abruptly ending that video. The Israelis learned that trick in 1968.

    Mechs would be more agile than tanks, able to take cover more easily. However they would sport 'very' light armor (relatively speaking), likely lighter even than an APC. Very likely armor piercing 50 caliber bullets could defeat their armor. Moreover, despite their ability to learn around corners, they would none the less be 'big' targets. It is perfectly feasible for infantry to carry 50 caliber sniper rifles, and hitting those big targets will be easy even for the untrained. I am 100% convinced that mechs will remain solely within gaming, anime, and movies, and will never be part of an actual military.

    Powered armor infantry on the other hand is a very different story. Exoskeleton enhanced armored suits could in theory allow a soldier to wear much better armor and carry heavier weaponry. They will be vastly harder for an ill trained and ill equipped insurgent to deal with. Even modern militaries will find themselves desperately wanting similar powered armor so as to be able to counter their opponents powered armor on an equal footing, else they will find themselves on a very loosing end of the attrition equation.

    The design of those powered suits will likely be quite different than how they are typically envisaged by most. Most people see them as being big hulky clumsy systems using motors and gears. Such a suit would never be willingly used by an experienced soldier. The powered armor that will be used will not be larger than say a NASA space suit, and very likely will be even less bulky than that. It will probably have soft armor not rigid so as to permit maximum flexibility and coverage. It will be almost as dexterous as an unarmored soldier and not much larger.
    Very well said. In addition it's worth noting that cover doesn't mean much when you have missiles that can arch over buildings and slam the soft topside of targets. And the added agility of a mech wouldn't mean much, you can't dodge a well aimed RPG. Seriously, rockets irl accelerate insanely fast.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Master_Artificer
    Joined
    Jan 1, 2015
    Messages
    923
    Reaction score
    292
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Purchased!
    • Thinking Positive
    The 'damage' on that first Abrams in the video is very likely the stowed gear that many tank crews will hang off the back end of their turret. It's convenient to stow it there so as to not clutter the already cramped interior of the tank. It also serves as an additional buffer to perhaps force a premature detonation of a shaped charge warhead before it might otherwise, degrading further it's ability to penetrate the rear turret. Any explosion on the rear of such a gear stowed turret is going to send whatever they stowed there flying very spectacularly, as it did in that video. I seriously doubt however that the effect on the tank or crew was anything more than ringing ears and a melancholy for loosing their tents, cots, and reserve MREs.

    That same video shows another Abrams getting hit with an RPG having utterly no affect. It then goes on to compare the effect of a hit on a T72, a seriously inferior tank relative to the Abrams. A T72's gun cannot penetrate the front armor of an Abrams at 'any' range. If a tank can't do it, you can be pretty sure a shoulder fired rocket won't do it either.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Keptick
    Joined
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages
    534
    Reaction score
    195
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    Mechs are tanks. That's like asking who would win with the space shuttle vs klingon bird of prey.
     
    Joined
    Jan 16, 2015
    Messages
    298
    Reaction score
    81
    I am going to use real science to explain away my science fiction hypothetical........ kind of like how people use real science when debating scifi on the imdb site. :p

    I mean sure some arguments are valid if you use real world robot technology vs real world tank, e.g tank will more than likely win seeing as most 'mechs' we have to date are, well utter crap.

    But when it comes to scifi mechs and tanks it's a different kettle of fish.

    When I see a nation deploying real life ED-209's or bigger into a warzone, then by all means feel free to use real world logic. A real world logic that does not apply to say Gundams or Voltron.

    What about Tachikomas from GIS? They're both a tank and a mech. A walker a roller, and if need a 100 tonne spider man :p. Being bug legged they're also less likely to fall over than a 2 legged machine.

    Again I say a scenario matters, it's not all about power, size and manoeuvrability. Strategy and other factors like environmental conditions and mechanical design come into play.
     
    Joined
    Jun 7, 2013
    Messages
    403
    Reaction score
    67
    • Purchased!
    Mechs are tanks. That's like asking who would win with the space shuttle vs klingon bird of prey.
    First, depends on the setting. Since this thing is still in General Discussion forum and not as an off-topic then I'd say both mecha and tanks in Starmade are just starships. Except what makes mecha different from tank - the limbs etc - usually do not provide any advantage whatsoever, being just a decoration made so mecha will look like mecha.

    Outside of that, mecha differ wildly, from being actual tanks on legs - which often don't provide them with any benefits that aren't shush-shush suspension of disbelief stuff - to being flying ballerina knights with wings and honest supernatural powers (energy blasts based on spiritual power of the pilot and whatnot). In which case we are brought to this:

    When I see a nation deploying real life ED-209's or bigger into a warzone, then by all means feel free to use real world logic. A real world logic that does not apply to say Gundams or Voltron.
    But the internally-coherent logic applies in general. We do not compare any particular models from any setting but most of the discussion - being somewhat off-topic as not related to Starmade (in fact, I have half a mind to flag this thread for moving elsewhere) - concentrates on mecha from the standpoint of validity and practical benefits of the design itself in relation to current and theoretical level of technology allowing basic functionality. In which case, comparison as per my first post applies and so do many claims regarding such things other users have made.
     

    JTJSniperBee

    Cat Person
    Joined
    Aug 25, 2013
    Messages
    175
    Reaction score
    5
    • Purchased!
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Legacy Citizen 5
    mech would also fall apart pretty easily,
    because they are connected by 2 blocks, 1 of them breaks and you lost like 1 fifth of your hole mech.
    tanks have only tracks to lose, they don't contain anything of importance, besides movability.
    Say you have a slow moving cannon. those tracks can rotate you so you can shoot faster. if you loose the tracks. your bloody dead by a fast tank