State of the game and necessary changes.

[Drakkart]

Hello everyone and thanks for reading, no doubt you do not expect to get out of this post quickly - good, i still shall stay brief.

I think everyone agrees that Starmade in general with all the stuff planned for future updates has enourmous potential to become the next gen voxel game out there. the railsystem was a big leap forward though it does not seem finished because of other mechanics actually limiting it's use.
I know a lot of stuff is getting worked on and it is somewhen to come but i feel urged to post this for a simple reason. the game without the railsytems possibilities felt somewhat complete. now with the railsystem showing options we suddenly run head on into brick walls of the limitations of the other mechanics and the game kinda feels incomplete.

So stuff i would like to see in the https://trello.com/b/9Kg5Jn6g/starmade-roadmap i will list here for i feel these changes have to come sbetter sooner than later to enable streamers/youtubers keeping the word out in the most positive matter.

- containers being able to send it's content across raildocker rail limitations to other (the main ship and vice versa) entities storage modules.
- cameras on docked entities being accessable from the ship core and while in camera view you can still move the ship
- better sorting filtering for containers just try telling a storage module what it wants to store in it and you soon notice this is not motivating to play true survival.
- spawning bugs like spawning inside of docked structures need to go, without admin you have no chance of getting out there except suicide and respawn, not motivating.
- turret's !! the code makeing them aim needs to be redone they still overshot on one axis tower and body crashing together and blocking further movement entirely... this actually renders any AMS useless so missiles are again the op weapons on any pvp server and in any tournament.
- in general i would like to the ai for missile turrets reworked so they stop aiming at stuff out of reach or out of field of aim and instead focus on something they can aim at.
- mass enhancers i just checked that out yesterday we are at >triple the amount of blocks of the old docking system to keep a turret moving you must be kidding us! Seriously it gets worse with every patch! soon the amount of massenhancers is going to be bigger than the turret to keep it moving what the hell is wrong with you guys?! (ok maybe this change came to be because of the change of armor weighthing more and systems less and thus the values for my turrests changed. anyway, it is ludicrus.)

i know there is so much awesome stuff to come and you are working on greatness here but fauna system and shipyards please that all does not matter as long this stuff is not fully operational. what worth is a shipyard if people hesitate to build stuff because we are eagerly waiting for these changes and they have to come.

Thanks for reading

 

[Kenshkrix]

Several of these ideas are definitely planned, like rail transferring, cargo/storage, and mass enhancers. In fact there's an entire cargo update planned, which will probably encompass rails, storage filters, and other sorting methods.

As far as spawning inside things goes, when you leave a core it gives you a message that says something like "If you are stuck, hold UP" with a timer, this has 100% solved this issue for me. I've had some strange issues when first logging in, but those are always fixed by just relogging.

Regarding turrets, I haven't been experiencing issues with AMS, maybe you could elaborate a bit more.

As far as the AI goes, that's one of the (if not THE) most complex things that currently exists in game development, it's definitely going to come along but I wouldn't hold my breath.

that all does not matter as long this stuff is not fully operational.

This thought has come up before, but most if not all of the things people refer to with this thought are literally going to be obsolete in the future, fixing them now is just additional work.

Starmade isn't a complete game, and while a lot of people use ALPHA/BETA as an excuse, in this case leaving something that works (maybe poorly) in place until you can totally replace it is a totally legitimate decision.


Anyways, thanks for sharing your thoughts but you come across pretty negative in some places which is offputting, I'd suggest that if you're stressed or angry at these issues that you take a hiatus from Starmade for awhile (I do this periodically with in-development/early access games).
The rail update and other upcoming changes are pretty big, a few months from now the game will probably smooth out a bit more.

 

[Reilly Reese]

Many times the UP function doesn't work.

Especially for those with lower frames because by the time they notice it it might have expired.

 

[Comr4de]

- mass enhancers i just checked that out yesterday we are at >triple the amount of blocks of the old docking system to keep a turret moving you must be kidding us! Seriously it gets worse with every patch! soon the amount of massenhancers is going to be bigger than the turret to keep it moving what the hell is wrong with you guys?! (ok maybe this change came to be because of the change of armor weighthing more and systems less and thus the values for my turrests changed. anyway, it is ludicrus.)

The way I see it is that its a trade-off. You're trading weapons strength for being able to hit a target without facing it (which for capital ships is a pretty nice trade-off).

i will list here for i feel these changes have to come sbetter sooner than later to enable streamers/youtubers keeping the word out in the most positive matter.

I'm sorry but this came across as a threat. "Add this or us youtubers will start saying bad things about the game!" Probably not your intention but that's how it came across to me.

 

[Edymnion]

- mass enhancers i just checked that out yesterday we are at >triple the amount of blocks of the old docking system to keep a turret moving you must be kidding us! Seriously it gets worse with every patch! soon the amount of massenhancers is going to be bigger than the turret to keep it moving what the hell is wrong with you guys?! (ok maybe this change came to be because of the change of armor weighthing more and systems less and thus the values for my turrests changed. anyway, it is ludicrus.)

You're missing a key point with the mass enhancers.

They are ship/station wide.

You put them down once for the entire ship/station, and they apply to EVERY turret on it at the same time. Sure, it takes more of them now than it did the old ones to increase docking box size, but you only have to do it once. My combat miner has 5 large turrets on it that require docking enhancers, and it only costs me 3x the blocks of one turret under the old system? I'll take that any day. Plus, the innate capacity is so high that by the time you get a turret big enough to need it, you've already got a ship/station thats big enough to be able to afford the space.

I'm sorry but this came across as a threat. "Add this or us youtubers will start saying bad things about the game!" Probably not your intention but that's how it came across to me.

Oh I know. "Your alpha isn't perfect, make it perfect right now or I'll blast it on my Youtube channel to all of my 27 subscribers!"

 

[Kenshkrix]

Many times the UP function doesn't work.

Especially for those with lower frames because by the time they notice it it might have expired.

You can also just design all your ships/stations so that there's plenty of space around the core/build block, since I started doing that I haven't had any problems.

But seriously, my laptop is kind of terrible, even so at 5-10fps in a heavily populated sector I can tell if I materialized inside of something before the timer runs out, can a computer slower than that even run Starmade?

I'm honestly confused at this even being an issue.

 

[Drakkart]

Several of these ideas are definitely planned, like rail transferring, cargo/storage, and mass enhancers. In fact there's an entire cargo update planned, which will probably encompass rails, storage filters, and other sorting methods.

As far as spawning inside things goes, when you leave a core it gives you a message that says something like "If you are stuck, hold UP" with a timer, this has 100% solved this issue for me. I've had some strange issues when first logging in, but those are always fixed by just relogging.

Regarding turrets, I haven't been experiencing issues with AMS, maybe you could elaborate a bit more.

As far as the AI goes, that's one of the (if not THE) most complex things that currently exists in game development, it's definitely going to come along but I wouldn't hold my breath.


This thought has come up before, but most if not all of the things people refer to with this thought are literally going to be obsolete in the future, fixing them now is just additional work.

Starmade isn't a complete game, and while a lot of people use ALPHA/BETA as an excuse, in this case leaving something that works (maybe poorly) in place until you can totally replace it is a totally legitimate decision.


Anyways, thanks for sharing your thoughts but you come across pretty negative in some places which is offputting, I'd suggest that if you're stressed or angry at these issues that you take a hiatus from Starmade for awhile (I do this periodically with in-development/early access games).
The rail update and other upcoming changes are pretty big, a few months from now the game will probably smooth out a bit more.

the up never worked for me sorry ...
regarding the ai overshooting. everyone knows that ai is one of the most complex things in games, so?
yes it is a totally legitimate decision to leave something halfway done because it will be replaced with something better anyway but as such should be communicated and in some instances it is not obvious which parts will be obsolete somewhen or being replaced by something which will solve mentioned issues.
the thing is i am not that type of guy sitting still and claiming "eventually it will be fixed somewhen" if i love something i am pointing fingers at the stuff that needs fixing to make sure it does not get forgotten.

Many times the UP function doesn't work.

Especially for those with lower frames because by the time they notice it it might have expired.

The way I see it is that its a trade-off. You're trading weapons strength for being able to hit a target without facing it (which for capital ships is a pretty nice trade-off).

I'm sorry but this came across as a threat. "Add this or us youtubers will start saying bad things about the game!" Probably not your intention but that's how it came across to me.

Hey comr4de when did you build your last turret? noticed the amount of massenhancers required to move your favorite turret? And you are ok with that? Then i guess it is not even able fight of an isanth.
You know how i love the game (hopefully) the thing is some stuff is frustrating because there is all this potential but you can't utilize it yet. The thing i have is as i like putting everything in a positive manner in videos and such it becomes hard sometimes finding the right words because it could be so much better.

You're missing a key point with the mass enhancers.

They are ship/station wide.

You put them down once for the entire ship/station, and they apply to EVERY turret on it at the same time. Sure, it takes more of them now than it did the old ones to increase docking box size, but you only have to do it once. My combat miner has 5 large turrets on it that require docking enhancers, and it only costs me 3x the blocks of one turret under the old system? I'll take that any day. Plus, the innate capacity is so high that by the time you get a turret big enough to need it, you've already got a ship/station thats big enough to be able to afford the space.

Oh I know. "Your alpha isn't perfect, make it perfect right now or I'll blast it on my Youtube channel to all of my 27 subscribers!"

Mass enhancers work only one hirarchy level upwards, turrets need two axis, meaning while the turret body will be massenhanced it has to be filled up with mass enhancers to also keep the turret barrel moving. Also if you want a turret to be able to fight of an isanth the amount of massenhancers required to keep this turret moving is ludicrus.

 

[Edymnion]

Mass enhancers work only one hirarchy level upwards

Mine work more than that. I have large three part modular turrets, and they work just fine with the enhancers in the main ship.

 

[Kenshkrix]

I'm still honestly confused at how people have a problem with getting stuck in blocks, but that's also one of those things I designed around literally after the second time it happened to me so...

yes it is a totally legitimate decision to leave something halfway done because it will be replaced with something better anyway but as such should be communicated and in some instances it is not obvious which parts will be obsolete somewhen or being replaced by something which will solve mentioned issues.

I consider listing things as Planned in the roadmap as sufficiently communicated, personally.


Not directing this at anybody in particular, but I've seen dozens of posts on the subject already:
First off I don't actually build giant turrets, so my understanding of the problem is theoretical, my turrets all work fine.

Regarding big turrets, after all the reports and complaining I'm absolutely positive the devs know that many people believe that there's a problem with the new system.
They haven't fixed/addressed it yet so the proper response is to be patient.

Further complaining about it because your chosen design style for a game in-development might be implausible for an update or two is not going to speed anything up or change anybody's mind.

When an early-access game I like has some flaw that directly impacts my gameplay experience I make a bug report or a few posts and then stop playing for a month or two.
This reduces my stress and lets me come back to a changed game for a fresh new experience and helps me keep my interest in said game, I recommend it to anybody who has been playing a game for more than 3-4 serious updates without a break.

 

[Keptick]

My ~4.5k mass turrets require around 1250 enhancer blocks to work. I have 12 on my ship. This means that I need 1250 enhancers to move 540,000 blocks worth of turrets. Is that really so bad? Even if I was only using a single turret the mass fraction is pretty negligeable considering that I gain much better firing angles out of it.

I'd personally increase the mass that each enhancer contributes to, but I can live with the current values.

 

[jayman38]

No mention of targeted-by-enemy indicators or missile-lock notifications?

 

[Drakkart]

My ~4.5k mass turrets require around 1250 enhancer blocks to work. I have 12 on my ship. This means that I need 1250 enhancers to move 540,000 blocks worth of turrets. Is that really so bad? Even if I was only using a single turret the mass fraction is pretty negligeable considering that I gain much better firing angles out of it.

I'd personally increase the mass that each enhancer contributes to, but I can live with the current values.

my 7*11*26 -> 2002 blocks of mass enhancers can't move a 900 mass turret. so what went wrong here?
dimensions are those of the turret filled with massenhancers and a bunch of enery attached stil the turret moves at 1%

 

[Tunk]

Only time Iv had trouble with ams is due to severely resticted range of motion or very tight fitting (causing collision checking fun).
After their target is gone they generally wake up.

Never had issues with ams that has room to breath and enough range of motion.

Only thing that really annoys me is how the ai uses core alignment rather than turret axis when formulating a firing solution.

 

[Kenshkrix]

I might get some free time to experiment later this week, but I imagine it might have something to do with a turret's center of mass if it's a recent issue, but I don't actually have time to test it out for awhile.

My turrets are almost all centered around the docking module regardless of size, so does anybody have anecdotal evidence regarding designs that run into this issue?
The numbers I've seen reported from various people don't seem to match up intuitively, and an additional variable would explain the discrepancy. As would a distinct lack of hard numbers in general from people that claim their large turrets don't work.

Maybe the people having problems could describe the designs and dimensions they're having problems with, it shouldn't be too hard to falsify CoM relevance.

Also, I apologize if this is entirely the wrong place to post this, but it seems to be a relevant topic of discussion anyways.

 

[Drakkart]

i didn't run into the core alignment thing maybe because i put the core on the other side of the raildocker and in between haveing the turret axis...
The issue with ams turrets is that they should wake up midfight as soon as they either can not target a missile because it is out of the field of possible vision or out of range. and that collision checking fun should reset the barrel as well, either that or really code them to use their possible range of movement more clever. i guess the turrets ai might not even be aware of it's axis restrictions which right now makes ams turrets good for one or two shots and then they are a useless clunked up mess of blocks for the rest of the fight which keeps makeing swarmers the ultimate form of destruction yay ...

 

[Tunk]

I ran into the core alignment issue because I build weird turrets, its quirks are actually useful once you've figured it out but infuriating just prior.
For example one AMS I produced caused the turrets to rev up to like 1200 RPM when it detected a missile and throw a hissy fit.

Probably should have put a warhead blade on that one...

 

[Panpiper]

Oh I know. "Your alpha isn't perfect, make it perfect right now or I'll blast it on my Youtube channel to all of my 27 subscribers!"

An internet post's tone is more that of the reader than the writer. I found no such rancor in Drakkart's post. He loves the game, wants it to succeed and is communicating what he feels are the most pressing issues to address. It would be truly sad for both a game and it's developers if there were no such posts.

Drakkart has over 3500 subscribers by the way.

 

[Keptick]

my 7*11*26 -> 2002 blocks of mass enhancers can't move a 900 mass turret. so what went wrong here?
dimensions are those of the turret filled with massenhancers and a bunch of enery attached stil the turret moves at 1%

There's definitely something you did wrong. One enhancer can enhance 3.5 mass. Did you add enhancers to the turret body for the barrels (or vertical segment)? If not, then that's your problem. Also don't forget that armor mass was increased, so you need to adjust old turrets.

 

[Drakkart]

There's definitely something you did wrong. One enhancer can enhance 3.5 mass. Did you add enhancers to the turret body for the barrels (or vertical segment)? If not, then that's your problem. Also don't forget that armor mass was increased, so you need to adjust old turrets.

i have massenhancers in the turretbody and that turret was already working so i figured yes it might have to do with the changes of the armor and systems stuff... BUT! 3.5 mass per enhancer means 900 / 3.5 = 257 enhancers should do it but they don't then what went wrong i mean the server was updated we all connected with updated clients where did error happen?

 

[Keptick]

i have massenhancers in the turretbody and that turret was already working so i figured yes it might have to do with the changes of the armor and systems stuff... BUT! 3.5 mass per enhancer means 900 / 3.5 = 257 enhancers should do it but they don't then what went wrong i mean the server was updated we all connected with updated clients where did error happen?

You sure that you have enough enhancers in the turret body? Otherwise the server's mass enhancer configs must be messed up...