StarMade v0.199.214 Auxiliary Power, Better Graphics, Better Textures, and Bugfixes

    Joined
    Mar 9, 2014
    Messages
    596
    Reaction score
    112
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    Exactly. We can always add more depth later if it's needed, but we have been stuck on the building aspect of the game for a long time and there are a lot of other features that need to be added in. Preferably before beta so that they can have the test of time.
    Taking off your right hand now, and then replacing it later when its needed is also the same. The point remains, you removed apart of yourself, and you're likely to need it again, for what purpose, you could have spent that time adding another arm and hand.
     
    Joined
    Feb 25, 2016
    Messages
    1,362
    Reaction score
    268
    Yes, they could have left the mechanic the same....but that would've made larger-scale battles (Or battles with large-scale ships) more laggy, and less playable. So they changed it, so that the alpha players (That's all of us, for those of you who thought this was a needlepoint society or some such) can play the game, instead of watching the slideshow that is a docked reactor being disable.
     

    Darkkon

    The Harlequin Builder
    Joined
    Jun 28, 2013
    Messages
    155
    Reaction score
    20
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    Taking off your right hand now, and then replacing it later when its needed is also the same. The point remains, you removed apart of yourself, and you're likely to need it again, for what purpose, you could have spent that time adding another arm and hand.
    Not quite. We don't know how such a system would affect future features so its a question of whether the devs want to spend the time on a whole new feature now and then troubleshoot issues with each other feature that messes it up, or wait until the features most likely to conflict are already in and the issues are likely to be lessened since they already know what to expect.
     
    Joined
    Mar 9, 2014
    Messages
    596
    Reaction score
    112
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    Yes, they could have left the mechanic the same....but that would've made larger-scale battles (Or battles with large-scale ships) more laggy, and less playable. So they changed it, so that the alpha players (That's all of us, for those of you who thought this was a needlepoint society or some such) can play the game, instead of watching the slideshow that is a docked reactor being disable.
    I agree with you that generators where a bad system, they caused lag, and had little advantage, what i'm saying is that schine could have atleast hinted at a better system down the line, or waited until they had a really good replacement for it. Consider this, large scale battles are currently unplayable regardless of generators, even with AUX blocks, titan fights only ever end in crashing. They can change things but atleast give us some hope, or replace the feature with something better. As i've said before, they could have simply done a hotfix to change the config to make rail blocks unkillable, for now, until they had a better feature, this would have been better then rushing something to replace it.
     

    Lone_Puppy

    Me, myself and I.
    Joined
    Mar 12, 2015
    Messages
    1,274
    Reaction score
    529
    • Purchased!
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Legacy Citizen 8
    Wow, there is so much passion in this area.
    I can understand losing a ton of work with the docked reactor builds would frustrate those builders.

    I'm kinda torn between the two. I like the whole component side of using docked anything.
    However, I do like the simplicity of the new AUX.

    I actually wish the power reactor was as simple, because having to build crazy shapes and working around that does my head in.
     
    Joined
    Mar 9, 2014
    Messages
    596
    Reaction score
    112
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    Not quite. We don't know how such a system would affect future features so its a question of whether the devs want to spend the time on a whole new feature now and then troubleshoot issues with each other feature that messes it up, or wait until the features most likely to conflict are already in and the issues are likely to be lessened since they already know what to expect.
    This is a good point, perhaps the strongest point against my argument. You're right, we don't know, but we know schine does, and so, they could have at least informed us of the real reasons behind removing generators, even something like "We removed them now, because we're going to replace the whole power system in a future update" would have been better, but instead, they where replaced by what seems to be only one part of the new power system.
     

    Lecic

    Convicted Lancake Abuser
    Joined
    Apr 14, 2013
    Messages
    5,107
    Reaction score
    1,228
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 11
    I see your thinking, but ask yourself this, schine did not need to edit this part of the game, they could have left it for now, put depth into something else, and then slowly phased out generators like they did with the old turret system, but they instead decided to remove this part of the game completely, and make no mention of a system down the line to replace it. There is no need to remove the depths, it doesn't make other areas "better" it simply removes items from the game now.
    Schine absolutely needed to edit this part of the game. What features are coming up next? NPC faction reworks and, at some point, unloaded fleet combat along with it. You can't have unloaded fleet combat with docked generators. How the hell are you supposed to incorporate docked generators into that? It's much easier for them to use auxiliaries.
    Not only that, docked reactors were a major lag causer in regular, loaded, PvP combat as well. Not only are more entities laggier, but the lag caused by reactors undocking and colliding with eachother and the mothership is incredible.

    EDIT- Oh, and also- It's not removed. You can enable it in the configs LIKE OLD DOCKING.
     

    nightrune

    Wizard/Developer/Project Manager
    Joined
    May 11, 2015
    Messages
    1,324
    Reaction score
    577
    • Schine
    • Top Forum Contributor
    • Thinking Positive
    I see your thinking, but ask yourself this, schine did not need to edit this part of the game, they could have left it for now, put depth into something else, and then slowly phased out generators like they did with the old turret system, but they instead decided to remove this part of the game completely, and make no mention of a system down the line to replace it. There is no need to remove the depths, it doesn't make other areas "better" it simply removes items from the game now.
    I agree with you that generators where a bad system, they caused lag, and had little advantage, what i'm saying is that schine could have atleast hinted at a better system down the line, or waited until they had a really good replacement for it. Consider this, large scale battles are currently unplayable regardless of generators, even with AUX blocks, titan fights only ever end in crashing. They can change things but atleast give us some hope, or replace the feature with something better. As i've said before, they could have simply done a hotfix to change the config to make rail blocks unkillable, for now, until they had a better feature, this would have been better then rushing something to replace it.
    There are all sorts of reasons. When you start looking at where Saber and Criss are with building. Within the next few months they'll be starting on larger ships and stations as well. They'll need the power. Docked reactors were gonna go, and Lancake had a good idea of a way to make a good system for allowing power beyond the current cap. Maybe it was only good enough, but its something they can build on without being super complicated. Docked reactors we always laggy and that's not really gonna change. There are tricks for physics to make them go faster but there is computational limits. Looking into the future as well. We've been aiming at more and more stability. This also makes sense since the holiday times are almost on us, and Schine needs to eat. Stability looks good to potential sales. So this seems to be a damn good time to change it.

    When it comes down to it. The building portion of the game is crazy crazy deep. Just the amount of stuff I have to try to explain to a friend when they pick up the game for the first time is super intense. Which means that you've got a lot of good game time for someone. Building doesn't really need to be more in depth. Especially not right now.

    Also when it comes to designing software on a small team. You start with the most basic ideas first and build on it if you need to cause if simple is gonna work. Simple is much better to write, test, use.

    In short they did the best thing they could at the time. I think its a great system that would only need a few tweaks later on to add more depth, but we don't need it right now.
     

    Lone_Puppy

    Me, myself and I.
    Joined
    Mar 12, 2015
    Messages
    1,274
    Reaction score
    529
    • Purchased!
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Legacy Citizen 8
    Schine absolutely needed to edit this part of the game. What features are coming up next? NPC faction reworks and, at some point, unloaded fleet combat along with it. You can't have unloaded fleet combat with docked generators. How the hell are you supposed to incorporate docked generators into that? It's much easier for them to use auxiliaries.
    Not only that, docked reactors were a major lag causer in regular, loaded, PvP combat as well. Not only are more entities laggier, but the lag caused by reactors undocking and colliding with eachother and the mothership is incredible.
    Ah that's the nugget I've been looking for.

    It's related to unloaded combat! This now makes a whole lot of sense to me and I agree.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: nightrune and Lecic

    Lone_Puppy

    Me, myself and I.
    Joined
    Mar 12, 2015
    Messages
    1,274
    Reaction score
    529
    • Purchased!
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Legacy Citizen 8
    Hey Zackey_TNT, perhaps you guys could work with Lancake to work out something to make the game play interesting for you guys.
    I can see the potential for smoke and mirror tactics with whatever algorithm they intend to create for the unloaded combat. This would reach across ships big/small, stations, planets and of course fleets.

    There could be some interesting tactical and strategic work to be done here. You guys sound like the ones who would work through all the angles and then some.
    [doublepost=1473731333,1473731232][/doublepost]Interesting in the way that docked reactors were that is.
     

    Keptick

    Building masochist
    Joined
    Sep 26, 2013
    Messages
    4,062
    Reaction score
    1,841
    • Councillor 2 Gold
    • Railman Gold
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    It's more an issue with the underlying physics. We need collision detection. Period. The problem is that the current algorithm checks every block when it gets close to another entity. When the reactor is on the inside of the ship, it is literally checking every block in that reactor to see if it's colliding. It also checks every block nearby in the parent entity. At least thats how I understand it
    I won't lie, while they may seem shitty at times, the collisions in starmade areactualluy pretty well optimized (especially since the last updates). Compared to space engineers's collisions (taking ship size and block count into account), it is perfection incarnate. Seriously, it could be much much much worse (like it used to be :P)
     

    Maxajax

    Praise the Omnissiah and strike down his foes
    Joined
    Sep 17, 2013
    Messages
    36
    Reaction score
    18
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen
    By the way, Zackey, have you still got the exact calculations of how much our respective generators did? Gave calculating it a try but I only remembered the general numbers.
    [doublepost=1473760387,1473759875][/doublepost]
    Hey Zackey_TNT, perhaps you guys could work with Lancake to work out something to make the game play interesting for you guys.
    I can see the potential for smoke and mirror tactics with whatever algorithm they intend to create for the unloaded combat. This would reach across ships big/small, stations, planets and of course fleets.

    There could be some interesting tactical and strategic work to be done here. You guys sound like the ones who would work through all the angles and then some.
    [doublepost=1473731333,1473731232][/doublepost]Interesting in the way that docked reactors were that is.
    Before unloaded combat becomes a thing, Starmade has to be able to load a sector with a station and a fleet in it, without 20+ entities loading in inside of the station's blocks. The whole loading in inside of stuff thing is why Bobby and his admins instituted the whole "max 20 ships per fleet / max 10 fleets per faction / max 3 fleets per player / max 1 fleet per sector" rule. Even though I know that you could have 10 of those fleets in one sector as long as you load the sector up in a stealther before the fleets arrive, I still have to follow that rule, because the rules go for everyone, and everyone seems to be crashing the server with a fork.
     

    Zerefette

    <|°_°|>
    Joined
    Jan 12, 2015
    Messages
    171
    Reaction score
    70
    • Purchased!
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Legacy Citizen 5
    Does anyone know the mathematical formula for power aux? The graph is nice but the numbers are too big.
    Edit: Bonus Cheese
     
    Last edited:

    Darkkon

    The Harlequin Builder
    Joined
    Jun 28, 2013
    Messages
    155
    Reaction score
    20
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    I won't lie, while they may seem shitty at times, the collisions in starmade areactualluy pretty well optimized (especially since the last updates). Compared to space engineers's collisions (taking ship size and block count into account), it is perfection incarnate. Seriously, it could be much much much worse (like it used to be :p)
    Oh no i agree with you, but it is still a major source of lag regardless when things are moving around. :P
     
    Joined
    Oct 22, 2014
    Messages
    338
    Reaction score
    148
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    Here is an idea. You can even keep the new blocks if you want. Just simply make every docked entity die with the mothership, and also not undock during destruction. Fixes a lot of the lag with docked reactors. How about allowing power transfer in both directions through a dock, no more need to use the beams giving less lag.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Lone_Puppy

    Lone_Puppy

    Me, myself and I.
    Joined
    Mar 12, 2015
    Messages
    1,274
    Reaction score
    529
    • Purchased!
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Legacy Citizen 8
    Here is an idea. You can even keep the new blocks if you want. Just simply make every docked entity die with the mothership, and also not undock during destruction. Fixes a lot of the lag with docked reactors. How about allowing power transfer in both directions through a dock, no more need to use the beams giving less lag.
    Perhaps a docking mechanic that allows you to secure or lock the dock, effectively making the docked entity a part of the primary entity whether the dock is destroyed or not. Or perhaps a cascade effect where, if the dock goes so does the docked entity. This could be related to the energy link/transfer component as a type of power overload cascade. Thus destroying the docked entity all together.

    Eh, I don't know. Might not be everybodies cup of tea.
     
    Joined
    Jun 24, 2015
    Messages
    247
    Reaction score
    63
    The way the docking mechanism works with a single point of connection this would always be a problem. If either the rail or the dock are destroyed it would release. The best way to keep this mechanic and reduce the chance of lag death would be to have a docking mechanic that allows for multiple docking connections. How ever this being said all this would do would be to allow for redundancy to prevent the lag in the first place.

    While I haven't messed with them too much as most of my ships don't need more than the soft cap, I do like the way this is going. It will however take some time to balance out the new system. But hey this is alpha we have a ways to go.
     
    Joined
    Mar 2, 2014
    Messages
    1,293
    Reaction score
    230
    • Thinking Positive
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    The way the docking mechanism works with a single point of connection this would always be a problem. If either the rail or the dock are destroyed it would release. The best way to keep this mechanic and reduce the chance of lag death would be to have a docking mechanic that allows for multiple docking connections. How ever this being said all this would do would be to allow for redundancy to prevent the lag in the first place.

    While I haven't messed with them too much as most of my ships don't need more than the soft cap, I do like the way this is going. It will however take some time to balance out the new system. But hey this is alpha we have a ways to go.
    That would be cool, but more than one docking connection is a severe technical problem.
     
    Joined
    Mar 9, 2014
    Messages
    596
    Reaction score
    112
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    By the way, Zackey, have you still got the exact calculations of how much our respective generators did? Gave calculating it a try but I only remembered the general numbers.
    I do.
    Theoretical transfer formula:

    Regen/240=blocks needed
    Divide blocks needed by 2 for both mains and support.

    Example;
    2M/240=
    8333

    8333/2=
    4166

    So 4166 supply beams, and supporting cannons of 4166.