StarMade Ship Systems 2.0

    Valiant70

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    This actually makes me think, why not disable ALL docked reactors? By making turrets need to draw power from the main ship, you remove the advantage they have of splitting up all the reactor HP, which would make turret boats a huge pain to properly kill. You would also make EMP actually able to work on turret boats, as turret boats are currently pretty much immune to EMP if their guns are self powered (and trust me, they usually are.).
    Disabling them seems like the simplest and most effective way to prevent a balance nightmare.

    I don't think killing off self powered turrets is a good idea. That just seems like an arbitrary restriction for a mechanic that actually required some thought and design to work properly.
    If self-powered turrets break balance they won't work. If they can be balanced in a way that addresses the concerns above, that would probably be ideal.
    [doublepost=1494978907,1494978875][/doublepost]
    Turrets should just be main ship guns that swivel.
    ...That makes too much sense. *AGREE SMASH*
     
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    1. Why the tech points? Why can't chambers just consume power? Why create a completely redundant different resource coming from the very same reactor?
    Because there needs to be some limit to allow for specialization. You only have X slots, what are you going to put in them? If you can fit all of the upgrades onto your ship, there's no actual specialization. Take the example in the video: there's nothing like speed boosts or cloaking and there's no room for that. If you want to retrofit your ship with something like that, you need to remove something else.

    Though really, I do not like the "only one reactor active" part of this idea. I get the idea of controlling what chambers are active through controlling which reactors are active, but that means that investing in alternate chamber configurations not only requires the additional blocks for the chambers but also enough reactor power for the new situation. And then dealing with the heatbox of the new reactor.
     

    Lecic

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    I don't think killing off self powered turrets is a good idea. That just seems like an arbitrary restriction for a mechanic that actually required some thought and design to work properly.
    But nearly all of the biggest balance problems with the current power system come from docked, self powered weapon and shield systems. We should strike preemptively and just get rid of them now. Turrets should be treated as mobile parts of the main ship, not drones locked to a bigger ship. It would also make defense station designing require more thought.
     

    Ithirahad

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    Because there needs to be some limit to allow for specialization. You only have X slots, what are you going to put in them? If you can fit all of the upgrades onto your ship, there's no actual specialization. Take the example in the video: there's nothing like speed boosts or cloaking and there's no room for that. If you want to retrofit your ship with something like that, you need to remove something else.
    See, the thing with this is that I understand the reasoning behind it, but everything from the name to the idea itself and its implications... reminds me all too much of games where you drag little icons into slots to equip your ships with things, and you get a certain amount of slots. Which runs completely counter to much of the attraction of this game. Then again, if there is no better solution, I won't exactly try to fight this.
     

    lupoCani

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    Wow. Alright, I caught this one early, it seems.

    I was, generally speaking, in favor of the first proposal, and wouldn't have advocated such an overhaul. Yet, this system appears to be good on it's own merits.

    My concerns:

    I am in favor of some system wherein multiple reactors can operate, and destroying one would only partially harm power output. I realize that this would be a straight upgrade, if an auxiliary reactor could provide power while the primary is still online. Naturally, there would have to be some penalty to having redundant simultaneous reactors over a primary-auxiliary setup.

    Alternatively, there could be a system wherein multiple reactors are linked, and operate as one, and fail as one. For example, if you want to split your reactor capacity evenly across two engine nacelles.

    I am ... awestruck, I should say, by the unexpected genius of the "stabilizers". It took a while to figure out how, exactly, that would work, but now it seems reasonable enough. Generally, I am in favor of even more mechanics to enforce systems in neat and tidy boxes with space in between.

    I am in favor of keeping the jump system as something you add on. There are ships for which is it not natural to have jump drives, such as small shuttles. If you do want jump drives one these, they take up space, hog power and are generally inefficient. As somebody who does add jump drives to small shuttles, I appreciate the fact that it feels wrong to do so.

    I am especially happy about the physical links. More of those, please.

    Finally, of course, "Tech points" is a terrible name, and "skill tree" is a terrible comparison. I spent that whole portion of the video thinking "wait, shit, they're adding a leveling system for players?".
     
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    I like the entire new proposal.

    My thoughts:

    - The priority queue for the recharge of systems should be controllable by logic. I would like to have it quickly adjustable if I want my shields or my weapons being charged first.

    - I have a loose suggestion to make: As you allready plan to implement some wires between the rechargers, I think you could also implement the following thing: Walkways that are targetable by enemy transporters if they succseeded to hack you or bring your shields down. Walkways could be made of a single block that needs to have two air blocks above it to be valid, and need to connect to every system.

    If they are not connected you have no reading of their current status (or loose control over them, but I think thats a bit drastic imho. :D - but maybe you can come up with another idea on how it could work). This would also encourage players to place blocks in groups, instead of scatter many blocks around aimlessly.

    - The visual indication of system positionings is a great idea, if that automatically implies, that we will fight with a smaller weapon range. Atm. the pvp consensus is on using 10km wide sectors. I am hardly able to hit a ships system if it is 500m away from me...I suggest to redefine the weapon ranges from sector range relative ones to locked weapon ranges. It would be great if such a change could be made somewhat earlier, as I don't like this long range combat atm. (personal taste).

    - The stabilizers
    seems like an artificial system to me that I can loosely connect in my imagination to a heat exhaust system. Where every other system in Starmade has a clear definition that I can easily relate to reality, the stabilizers are not immediatelly telling me what they might be, if I would encounter them in a real ship.

    On the other hand, I think that making these stabilizers so generic enables me to give them different definitions for different scifi settings: On the one ship they are heat exhaust systems, on the other ship they are radiation control units, and on another they are magnetic wave stabilizers. So it's totally fine for me to call them stabilizers and leave them as they are.
     
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    See, the thing with this is that I understand the reasoning behind it, but everything from the name to the idea itself and its implications... reminds me all too much of games where you drag little icons into slots to equip your ships with things, and you get a certain amount of slots. Which runs completely counter to much of the attraction of this game. Then again, if there is no better solution, I won't exactly try to fight this.
    Hmm... maybe there needs to be a (somewhat difficult) way to increase the amount of tech points available in the name of flexibility. As in, have a lower starting amount of tech points, but add some means for increasing tech points. This means, of course, would need to be pretty expensive, but in its current state, the universe doesn't have many expensive/hard to get things in it. So maybe that'll have to be left until future universe updates.
     
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    Hmm... maybe there needs to be a (somewhat difficult) way to increase the amount of tech points available in the name of flexibility. As in, have a lower starting amount of tech points, but add some means for increasing tech points. This means, of course, would need to be pretty expensive, but in its current state, the universe doesn't have many expensive/hard to get things in it. So maybe that'll have to be left until future universe updates.
    I think the point of them being limited is to prevent a "specialisation in everything" scenario, as far as I can see it's just a game of choosing what bonuses you want to receive; and you always get some number of them (unless you're a tiny ship)
     

    lupoCani

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    Oh, and, a couple more things.

    More concerns:
    Consider easing the "stabilizer radius" rule to only count reactor blocks part of an intact reactor. That way, an auxiliary reactor can draw on more central, well-protected stabilizers.

    I am very happy about the reactor HP system. I always thought "structure HP" felt arbitrary. Though, I would love to see the same logic extended to other systems- destroying a significant portion of shield blocks completely knocks out shields, destroying many thrusters completely knocks out the thrust, and so forth.
     
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    Valiant70

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    Hmm... maybe there needs to be a (somewhat difficult) way to increase the amount of tech points available in the name of flexibility. As in, have a lower starting amount of tech points, but add some means for increasing tech points. This means, of course, would need to be pretty expensive, but in its current state, the universe doesn't have many expensive/hard to get things in it. So maybe that'll have to be left until future universe updates.
    I thought about this too, but at the same time I like that there is some sort of hard limit shared by ships of all sizes and kinds.
     

    lupoCani

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    These ideas just pile up, don't they?

    And furthermore:

    I certainly hope we shall be able to draw redundant conduits between chambers, in case one is destroyed.
     

    Valiant70

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    I certainly hope we shall be able to draw redundant conduits between chambers, in case one is destroyed.
    That sounds good on the surface, but it could get ridiculous or overpowered quickly. Immagine a chamber 16 blocks longs and 4 high with 64 redundant conduits running to it. It would be more balanced and elegant to rely on putting internal armor around your conduits and other critical systems.

    EDIT: Another possibility is limiting the number of conduits according to chamber size, so one with 100 or fewer blocks may have only one, 100-500 may have 2, 500-2500 block chambers may have 3 conduits, etc. Personally, I'd rather limit to one conduit each for simplicity.
     

    Ithirahad

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    That sounds good on the surface, but it could get ridiculous or overpowered quickly. Immagine a chamber 16 blocks longs and 4 high with 64 redundant conduits running to it. It would be more balanced and elegant to rely on putting internal armor around your conduits and other critical systems.
    Missiles are your friend. Regardless, there'll probably be some drawback to running tons of conduits...
     
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    Speaking of redundant conduits, I was thinking it would be cool to have a conduit "switch block". The switch block could be controlled by the inner ship remote so you can change to a alternate chamber "branch" or path via hot bar.

    I am not a fan of Tech Points. Maybe something like, Reactor Focus Units. RFUs
     
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    This just...looks so much more complicated than what we have in game now to me, and it may be my end, which is fine ive had fun for 3-5 years, i forget exactly. If the majority likes it though, then so be it :)

    Still though, 1800 hours isnt to bad in a game for 5$ xD
     

    Ithirahad

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    This just...looks so much more complicated than what we have in game now to me, and it may be my end, which is fine ive had fun for 3-5 years, i forget exactly. If the majority likes it though, then so be it :)

    Still though, 1800 hours isnt to bad in a game for 5$ xD
    From what I can tell, it will actually be a lot less complicated in practice than it looks. You put down a reactor, place a bunch of system chambers (while not exceeding your maximum 'tech points'), you put down some conduits to connect it all together, and then add weapons. Instead of a global power capacity weapons now have their own capacity, so you don't even have to worry about putting down enough batteries to power everything.
     
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    Perhaps, instead, skip the idea of points entirely. Make them take power entirely. So, you have only so much power to spend (It's a reactor, after all) on anything you want to spend it on reduces the amount available. Then, make multiple reactors a possibility for logic and also balance. Makes it possible to make multiple inefficient reactors (Slight penalty to reactor efficiency when multiple reactors are active, since they're linearly scaling right now) rather than one big one. Not MUCH of a penalty, but enough to keep it balanced. This way, you can have as many effects as you want, but they're not going to be terribly powerful compared to a specialized ship.
    Like EVE:
    You can do it all, but you're going to be mediocre at best.
    Do one thing, though, and you can do that thing really well.
    Don't do it all, do one thing really well.

    It has to be a choice you can make, not something forced on you by some logic-defying system of "tech points".
     
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    some thoughts:

    * The way that docked reactors and power flow is controlled is just terrible. The boxdim of reactors/stabilizers is incredibly arbitrary and abstruse.
    Should be consistent and uncomplicated; if anything at all, require conduits to the rail.

    * The Tech Points system feels weird; I rather liked a heat mechanic as a limiting factor instead

    * Stabilizers are kinda dumb, especially having to be far away from the reactor itself is just strange and encourages ships to be long on one axis

    * Requiring conduits to connect to things isn't really bad but using them for critical subsystems would get annoying if enemies constantly shoot them off; they'd have to be somewhat tough.

    * "Weapons, tools and some other systems now have their own internal power capacity"
    I'm not a fan of this one, it seems overly complicated, and would probably worsen some of the lag-based power issues that cause ships to have reduced functionality on servers
     
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    The weapons-capacity thing just means that there will be no intermediary. No more power capacitors, just straight draws, which changed based on two things: Full/not full states of weapons and damage sustained to systems.

    Except for thrusters and shields which are, as always, constant-draw systems.
     
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