Starmade, meet Tesla.

[Dark_Inquisitor]

I think It'd be more logical to have very slow (than immobile) ships . Like, you know, battleships that go as fast as fighters? And you want to use that tiny thing? As for me, speed is deciding factor for fighters

 

[sagethe13th]

@sagethe13th I dunno mate, I think having control of your turrets is defence enough, or maybe you should keep around some crew in fighters to defend you while you go into hyperdrive. Y'know, teamwork.

We can't just have people jumping hither to tither all over the place, that isn't balanced.

I'm fine with that. I actually like the idea of having slow moving mothership type vessels that have to be protect because they can't run away. My problem is with a ship that can jump hundreds of sectors at once and then not even be able to move 200m next the station I want to park it next too because it is immobile in normal space. It seems silly to me.

 

[Qweesdy]

There is an incentive. The lower turning speed is annoying and makes some things take extreme times to perform.

AFAIK the docked-generator exploit will be nerfed or maybe even fixed.

Maybe; but it's been in the game ever since I can remember and while they did fix some extreme exploits (allowing docked power cells to overlap) I doubt the basic idea will ever be prohibited. I also personally like the idea of allowing power cells, as it makes ship building more challenging/interesting than just "slap random blocks on a core (and then try to make it look pretty if you want)".

Being stranded is annoying, and always keeping an eye on the fuel gauge is too.

Being killed by an enemy faction is annoying, and so is having to collect credits/resources because you didn't start the game with 2 billion credits and a titan, and so is exploring a planet and accidentally going for a swim in lava, or not paying any attention and flying into the middle of star. It's the "annoying" things that make the game challenging and fun to play.

For the entire history of the known universe, no teenager has ever said "I don't want to learn how to drive and never want to own a car; because keeping an eye on the fuel gauge is too annoying".

Also, what happens when due to a bug the same happens as on a popular server once?[can't remember the name, was either illusive or NASS] Apart from the shop at 0,0,0 no shops spawned, until someone found a huge wall of shops far out where nobody is going normally.
The bug was fixed, but there is no telling if it happens again.

I agree - it'd be nice if the game had no bugs.

That would indeed be nice, provided one(even if not effective) source of absolutely free energy, that does not rely on any condition(like solar panels rely on sunlight), remains.

Agreed; but for free energy there has to be a disadvantage to balance it out. For solar panels I'd just assume there's always light as long as the solar panels are on the exterior of the ship, where the disadvantages are that they're an obvious weak point for attackers (especially for "vampires" with power drain beams) and don't give as much power per block as fuel. This would make solar panels a natural choice for small ships and civilian ships, and something large warships would avoid.

Wrong. Not only are there already mechanics in the game that encourage smaller ships over dreadnoughts, I can also think of several others that could and most likely will eventually be added.

The only "mechanics in the game that encourage smaller ships over dreadnoughts" that I can think of is the turning speed nerf (which is both silly/unrealistic and mostly irrelevant once you throw turrets on your titan).

For instance, FTL favors small ships. Jump drives take hours to charge on larger vessels, gates are limited by their shape and also power consumption. A bit more below. If shops were spread thinner and with a larger stock, small to medium-sized freighters would become a viable alternative.

Jump drive seem to be a percentage of the ship's blocks and don't encourage small ships. I don't know about hyper-space (and assume it will favour large carriers designed for it and won't be practical for small ships at all). For warp gates it's the opposite - large ships encourage people to build large warp gates.

Furthermore, trading could be restricted to ships that docked to the shop station, which would encourage players to build ships that fit into the smallest docking port trading stations have to offer. If additionally docking would be changed from "Docking beam—BLEWM–docked" to careful maneuvering in place (which would be awesome for other obvious reasons), players would build ships that are easier to maneuver.

All my large ships are equipped with at least one scout ship (and typically it's a hanger that's big enough to hold many small ships).

If the above is not applicable, I'm sure that we can find non-grind mechanics for other tasks, too.

You're looking at this from the wrong perspective. The idea is to make the game more interesting, by adding "additional things" that ship builders and players need to take into account and giving realistic mechanics that encourage a variety of different ships for different purposes.

Saying it'll be a "grind" is like saying people should start with 2 billion credits because actually playing the game and earning credits/resources is too much fun.

It's kind of sad that you seem to never have played any great games.

<SARCASM> You're right, I've only played StarMade (which doesn't have fuel, and therefore isn't great). I definitely didn't play the original Elite (which is the grandfather of the "space trading game" genre) when I young, or play any of its clones (like Oolite) since, which all have fuel. I've also never played games like Wing Commander (which has fuel) or VegaStrike (which has fuel) or EVE online (which has fuel) or FreeSpace 2 (which has fuel), or Mass Effect 2 (which has fuel). I also haven't been keeping an eye on upcoming games, like Star Citizen (which has fuel) , or Elite: Dangerous (which has fuel), or Space Engineers (which has fuel), or ScrumbleShip (which has fuel).</SARCASM>

Here's a scenario most of us know: After Minecraft introduced food, I built huge underground wheat farms that I had to harvest regularly, just to counter the increased need for food. I didn't really like that, it was boring and forced me to waste time that I could have spent building stuff. Instead of harvesting when I needed to heal, I had to do that to not auto-die after 15 minutes of playing.

It's not my fault that you're not smart enough to build an automatic chicken cooker.

Hint: small group of chickens producing eggs. Eggs go to dispensers. Sunlight sensor controlling a clock to fire the eggs from the dispensers each morning to create more chickens. Series of holding tanks with pistons and water to push chickens from one holding tank to the next each morning (to ensure chickens become adults before reaching the last holding tank). Last tank pushes chickens down a chute to block/s of netherrack that are on fire, causing chickens to die by fire and leave feathers and cooked chicken behind to be collected (and sorted) into chests.

 

[sagethe13th]

Maybe; but it's been in the game ever since I can remember and while they did fix some extreme exploits (allowing docked power cells to overlap) I doubt the basic idea will ever be prohibited. I also personally like the idea of allowing power cells, as it makes ship building more challenging/interesting than just "slap random blocks on a core (and then try to make it look pretty if you want)".



Being killed by an enemy faction is annoying, and so is having to collect credits/resources because you didn't start the game with 2 billion credits and a titan, and so is exploring a planet and accidentally going for a swim in lava, or not paying any attention and flying into the middle of star. It's the "annoying" things that make the game challenging and fun to play.

For the entire history of the known universe, no teenager has ever said "I don't want to learn how to drive and never want to own a car; because keeping an eye on the fuel gauge is too annoying".



I agree - it'd be nice if the game had no bugs.



Agreed; but for free energy there has to be a disadvantage to balance it out. For solar panels I'd just assume there's always light as long as the solar panels are on the exterior of the ship, where the disadvantages are that they're an obvious weak point for attackers (especially for "vampires" with power drain beams) and don't give as much power per block as fuel. This would make solar panels a natural choice for small ships and civilian ships, and something large warships would avoid.



The only "mechanics in the game that encourage smaller ships over dreadnoughts" that I can think of is the turning speed nerf (which is both silly/unrealistic and mostly irrelevant once you throw turrets on your titan).



Jump drive seem to be a percentage of the ship's blocks and don't encourage small ships. I don't know about hyper-space (and assume it will favour large carriers designed for it and won't be practical for small ships at all). For warp gates it's the opposite - large ships encourage people to build large warp gates.



All my large ships are equipped with at least one scout ship (and typically it's a hanger that's big enough to hold many small ships).



You're looking at this from the wrong perspective. The idea is to make the game more interesting, by adding "additional things" that ship builders and players need to take into account and giving realistic mechanics that encourage a variety of different ships for different purposes.

Saying it'll be a "grind" is like saying people should start with 2 billion credits because actually playing the game and earning credits/resources is too much fun.



<SARCASM> You're right, I've only played StarMade (which doesn't have fuel, and therefore isn't great). I definitely didn't play the original Elite (which is the grandfather of the "space trading game" genre) when I young, or play any of its clones (like Oolite) since, which all have fuel. I've also never played games like Wing Commander (which has fuel) or VegaStrike (which has fuel) or EVE online (which has fuel) or FreeSpace 2 (which has fuel), or Mass Effect 2 (which has fuel). I also haven't been keeping an eye on upcoming games, like Star Citizen (which has fuel) , or Elite: Dangerous (which has fuel), or Space Engineers (which has fuel), or ScrumbleShip (which has fuel).</SARCASM>



It's not my fault that you're not smart enough to build an automatic chicken cooker.

Hint: small group of chickens producing eggs. Eggs go to dispensers. Sunlight sensor controlling a clock to fire the eggs from the dispensers each morning to create more chickens. Series of holding tanks with pistons and water to push chickens from one holding tank to the next each morning (to ensure chickens become adults before reaching the last holding tank). Last tank pushes chickens down a chute to block/s of netherrack that are on fire, causing chickens to die by fire and leave feathers and cooked chicken behind to be collected (and sorted) into chests.

Hate to break it to you but adding fuel won't fix the "titan problem". If a faction was well off enough the make one in the first place, they are going to be able to keep it fueled up and stomping the server. Fuel just adds an upkeep cost to the initial cost that they could already afford before everyone else.

 

[der_scheme]

Jump drive seem to be a percentage of the ship's blocks and don't encourage small ships.

Jump drives charge slower for large ships, but you surely will find an argument stating it favors them.

I don't know about hyper-space (and assume it will favour large carriers designed for it and won't be practical for small ships at all).

It will indeed not be practical for small ships, since, as I also stated in my post, according to current public info, it renders ships immobile outside hyperspace.

For warp gates it's the opposite - large ships encourage people to build large warp gates.

And how does that invalidate my point?

All my large ships are equipped with at least one scout ship (and typically it's a hanger that's big enough to hold many small ships).

Surprise, you have a special purpose vessel on your larger one that you can use to travel to trade hubs—like it is in pretty much every scifi franchise.

You're looking at this from the wrong perspective. The idea is to make the game more interesting, by adding "additional things" that ship builders and players need to take into account and giving realistic mechanics that encourage a variety of different ships for different purposes.

I don't think I do.

Saying it'll be a "grind" is like saying people should start with 2 billion credits because actually playing the game and earning credits/resources is too much fun.

Cars are fast when they are painted red.

It's not my fault that you're not smart enough to build an automatic chicken cooker.

Hint: small group of chickens producing eggs. Eggs go to dispensers. Sunlight sensor controlling a clock to fire the eggs from the dispensers each morning to create more chickens. Series of holding tanks with pistons and water to push chickens from one holding tank to the next each morning (to ensure chickens become adults before reaching the last holding tank). Last tank pushes chickens down a chute to block/s of netherrack that are on fire, causing chickens to die by fire and leave feathers and cooked chicken behind to be collected (and sorted) into chests.

Indeed, I'm not smart enough to build a time machine, and travel to the future where they have lights sensors and a game that can actually handle more than like four mobs at once.

 

[Qweesdy]

Jump drives charge slower for large ships, but you surely will find an argument stating it favors them.

I tested it. The jump drive on a large ship (with the number of jump drive modules recommended by the structure tab for the ship's size) takes the same amount of time to charge as the jump drive on a small ship (with the number of jump drive modules recommended by the structure tab for the ship's size).

I don't know if you didn't test it at all, or if you did it wrong (e.g. same number of jump drive modules on both ships).

And how does that invalidate my point?

You attempted to suggest that something about FLT encourages people to use small ships. You were wrong for jump drives and hyper-space; and for warp gates it hasn't encouraged anyone to build smaller ships (and has only encouraged people to build large warp gates), so you're wrong there too.

Surprise, you have a special purpose vessel on your larger one that you can use to travel to trade hubs—like it is in pretty much every scifi franchise.

Yes, it's a perma-cloaking scout. Due to the way cloaking and jamming works, it's not possible to perma-cloak a titan. Ironically, cloaking/jamming is the only thing in the game that actually does encourage small (but not tiny) ships; and you failed to mention it.

Note that I'm not trying to discourage the existence of titans (I think they're a "large reward for a large effort" that are required to keep people interested in continuing playing after they've made their first little ship); and I'm only suggesting that fuel is a good way to prevent "everyone uses titans for everything (except perma-cloaking scouts)".

 

[Comr4de]

It's kind of sad that you seem to never have played any great games.

Okay that's bullshit and you know it

Here's a scenario most of us know: After Minecraft introduced food, I built huge underground wheat farms that I had to harvest regularly, just to counter the increased need for food. I didn't really like that, it was boring and forced me to waste time that I could have spent building stuff. Instead of harvesting when I needed to heal, I had to do that to not auto-die after 15 minutes of playing.

Minecraft is a "survival" game. If I recall correctly, creative mode came after survival was entirely fleshed out.

 

[Megacrafter127]

Maybe; but it's been in the game ever since I can remember and while they did fix some extreme exploits (allowing docked power cells to overlap) I doubt the basic idea will ever be prohibited. I also personally like the idea of allowing power cells, as it makes ship building more challenging/interesting than just "slap random blocks on a core (and then try to make it look pretty if you want)".

Which is why I think it is going to be nerfed, e.g. the amount of energy one can recieve from docked entities is powered by 1/<amount of docked entities>.

Being killed by an enemy faction is annoying, and so is having to collect credits/resources because you didn't start the game with 2 billion credits and a titan, and so is exploring a planet and accidentally going for a swim in lava, or not paying any attention and flying into the middle of star.

All what you listed isn't annoying to me.
Why? Because it doesn't repeat itself over and over.(And there is a big difference between being killed and being spawnkilled)

For the entire history of the known universe, no teenager has ever said "I don't want to learn how to drive and never want to own a car; because keeping an eye on the fuel gauge is too annoying".

Wrong, I did and do. :P (srsly, I do)

 

[Leanson]

While it may or may not be needed for realism; fuel is definitely needed for game balance - it's the only disadvantage for huge ships that makes sense.

There's also other advantages; like making the economy more interesting, creating a whole new class of special purpose ships (fuel miner, fuel tanker), adding more of a stategic element to the upcoming universe update (fuel sources would be a critical resource).

Finally, it would also work very well with solar panels; where ship designers end up having to choose between using fuel for power (and ending up with running costs), or using solar power (and not having running costs, but having an exposed critical system), or having some mixture of both; which adds more variety and skill to the game.

Someone gets it.

 

[der_scheme]

I tested it. The jump drive on a large ship (with the number of jump drive modules recommended by the structure tab for the ship's size) takes the same amount of time to charge as the jump drive on a small ship (with the number of jump drive modules recommended by the structure tab for the ship's size).

Indeed. I couldn't get a quick and definitive answer from any Schine member—only an assumption, backing up mine: Since the Jump drive currently is the only ship-installable FTL method, this likely is a temporary measure. I don't know if it was changed after or before public release, but initially it took longer on large vessels.

Minecraft is a "survival" game. If I recall correctly, creative mode came after survival was entirely fleshed out.

Ignoring that Classic basically was creative mode, I don't see what this has to do with what I'm saying. I don't recall my builds decaying over time, which is the same for structures in StarMade. Acquiring blocks is a one-time thing, unlike fuel. (To any smart-ass looking at this post: Obviously they can be destroyed in battle, but that is not the point.)

Spoiler

inb4 smart-assing: I forgot to mention in my earlier post that hoppers came even after light sensors, making manual labor the only method of acquiring food in vanilla for years.
However, that is also besides the point. Or should we also get fully automated methods of acquiring fuel, totally invalidating the requirement for it?

HOWEVER: I believe I would be fine with fueled thrusters not stronger than Hyperflux coil thrusters. How could we possibly need that? Let us forge the story that hyperspace-enabled ships would be unable to hyperflux because of interferences between hyperdrive core and the flux, or whatever. They could be equipped with fuel thrusters instead.

 

[Comr4de]

So what's stopping someone from just using a jumpdrive over hyperdrive? The only real benefit is intergalactic travel. As much as I love Dune I don't see that being viable. People will just slap on jumpdrives so that their ships can still move. So much of combat is maneuvering against incoming projectiles. Taking the ability of movement away from hyperdrive equipped ships is only dooming that FTL mode to obsolescence and disuse.

Spoiler: Soapbox

The people in charge of config balance have a really tough time understanding the concept of "middle ground". Things are either outrageously overpowered or woefully useless. The disconnect between stop effects and push/pull effects come to mind.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

The immobility was just a concept, and they're most likely just going to resuce the speed for capital ships.

 

[Lecic]

The crafting system makes it very expensive to build large ships. The loss of them is also a huge loss. In battle, they're more likely to lose large amounts of blocks (as they have more) as well as blocks lost from turrets, which increases the maintenance costs of a large ship.

I think infinite energy is fine, but stronger reactors that use water (more specifically, hydrogen) for fuel would be an interesting secondary reactor type.

 

[Qweesdy]

I think infinite energy is fine, but stronger reactors that use water (more specifically, hydrogen) for fuel would be an interesting secondary reactor type.

Um..

Water can be used like a battery - essentially, you store the energy used during the conversion from water to hydrogen+oxygen and then reclaim that same energy back later (minus the efficiency loses) by converting the hydrogen+oxygen into water.

You can't use water as a fuel source.

 

[Megacrafter127]

Um..

Water can be used like a battery - essentially, you store the energy used during the conversion from water to hydrogen+oxygen and then reclaim that same energy back later (minus the efficiency loses) by converting the hydrogen+oxygen into water.

You can't use water as a fuel source.

Technically yes, but if you have a machine capable of doing so, said machine accepts any fuel(since it converts mass to energy)

 

[pizzasgood]

Um..

Water can be used like a battery - essentially, you store the energy used during the conversion from water to hydrogen+oxygen and then reclaim that same energy back later (minus the efficiency loses) by converting the hydrogen+oxygen into water.

You can't use water as a fuel source.

Actually, that's only one way of using water. What Lecic is talking about is fusion: take the two hydrogen atoms (preferably isotopes like tritium or deuterium) and fuse them together into helium. This releases significantly more energy than is required to split the water into hydrogen and oxygen.

 

[Mariux]

It could also be fusion power. While it's not infinite, it is REALLY efficient. In fact, it's what fuels stars. I'm wondering if there are hydrogen isotopes required for the fusion reaction in open space. If so, if you can pick it up with hydrogen scoops, you can get practically infinite fuel for energy generation. Also, the in-game thrusters could actually be quantum vacuum thrusters.

 

[Megacrafter127]

It could also be fusion power. While it's not infinite, it is REALLY efficient. In fact, it's what fuels stars. I'm wondering if there are hydrogen isotopes required for the fusion reaction in open space. If so, if you can pick it up with hydrogen scoops, you can get practically infinite fuel for energy generation. Also, the in-game thrusters could actually be quantum vacuum thrusters.

The intergalactic medium does contain such hydrogen isotopes, but the scoop required to scoop up more than is used to move the scoop would have to be bigger in diameter than the distance between earth and moon.

 

[Mariux]

The intergalactic medium does contain such hydrogen isotopes, but the scoop required to scoop up more than is used to move the scoop would have to be bigger in diameter than the distance between earth and moon.

Challenge considered.

 

[Snk]

Is there some way you could attract the hydrogen ions?