Starmade and Degenerate Strategy

[CyberTao]

intentionally capped

I've poked around with enough people to know that the engine currently can't seem to do more than 1.

If it was intentionally capped at 1, why is the value set to 10?

 

[Coke McCain]

I've poked around with enough people to know that the engine currently can't seem to do more than 1.

If it was intentionally capped at 1, why is the value set to 10?

I have no idea why the value is set to 10 but it says it's capped at one and may be implemented later so I can only assume it's intentional.

 

[CyberTao]

I have no idea why the value is set to 10 but it says it's capped at one and may be implemented later so I can only assume it's intentional.

Most of the foot notes and info in the configs were made by Calbiri I believe, Schema may have just decided it wasn't worth all the work to change it currently. They probably aimed for 10, found out it doesn't work, and decided to leave it as such for now. The note was probably made to let us know that it doesn't go pass 1 and that they are aware of that, or that's my take on it.

 

[Coke McCain]

Most of the foot notes and info in the configs were made by Calbiri I believe, Schema may have just decided it wasn't worth all the work to change it currently. They probably aimed for 10, found out it doesn't work, and decided to leave it as such for now. The note was probably made to let us know that it doesn't go pass 1 and that they are aware of that, or that's my take on it.

Schema made that one after it was reported at a bug. You could be right and it's just there to let everyone know they're aware of the problem and it's not really intentional. If that's the case though it's kinda strange punch would be nerfed to bring it in line with a technically broken effect.

 

[Dragleones]

I think the biggest problem is how damage applied to shields differs from damage applied to blocks.

vs Shields
Leaving primary pulse setups aside (they are useless anyways <.<), every weapon combination has pretty much similar capabilitys at taking out shields.
vs Hull
Every missile is awesome at taking out big chunks of hull, cannon-cannon and beam-cannon are pretty good aswell due to their rate of fire, the other beam-X combinations are ok, while the other cannon-X combinations are garbage.

Basically:
(Except for missiles) A increased size of a waepon array results in increased damage dealt to shields, while the actual damage dealt to hull stays the same after reaching 1000 damage per shot.
This means as OP said: weapons with high rate of fire (cannon-cannon) aswell as missile weapons are the weapons of choice.
Checkerboard arrays are another way to exploit this. Before the current weapon system they were mentioned in the same breath with doomcubes, as these builds tend to produce a lot of lag and were pretty easy to hit.
Thankfully they quickly became inefficient due to the power nerf based on amount of groups and we got some tools to convert high initial damage that into more effective "block-damage":

Explosive/Punch-through/Piercing
Explosive is bugged for quite a while now and only has 1 radius, while punch-through/piercing has a 50% damage reduction for every block travelled. Ironically these two effects work best in combination with cannon-cannon...

Random suggestions:

1. Explosive effect
   Its bugged currently, but even i think even in a fully working state: a set radius is a poor design choice. These kind of set values tend to favor a certain size/way to build and result in cookie cutter builds.
   The radius should increase with increasing initial-damage, but should be affected by dimishing return in order to avoid some kind of one-shot setups.
   
   
2. Punch-Through/Piercing
   I wasn't able to test the latest changes to them and have more and more difficulties to differentiate them,
   but welp... they need some love for sure. The damage reduction after each block travelled (currently 50%?) is way too high.
   
   
3. High rate of fire vs. low rate of fire
   Weapons with a high rof have many advantages over weapons with low rof.
   You hit more frequently. You can adjust the next shot quickly after a missed shot. You can actually spray a few salvo across the monitor with a good chance to hit your enemy a few times.
   There is currently no point in using the long cooldown version over the low cooldown version. Cannon-Pulse is basically a high risk- no reward weapon.
   Make the Dps proportional to the cooldown of a weapon.

A question about inherit explosive or punch effects; Why is this so sought after? I'm just asking in general, but how is a weapon being able to break X extra blocks any different than adding those effect blocks to the weapon?

Some weapon combinations have built-in "block-breaking-capabilitys" (high fire rate/splash damage resulting in less overkill damage vs blocks) like any missile combination and cannon-cannon, , while others have no at all (cannon-pulse).
Adding the ability to effectivly damage blocks artificially using effect-moduls is not as efficient as using a more potent weapon to begin with.

 

[CyberTao]

Its bugged currently, but even i think even in a fully working state: a set radius is a poor design choice. These kind of set values tend to favor a certain size/way to build and result in cookie cutter builds.
The radius should increase with increasing initial-damage, but should be affected by dimishing return in order to avoid some kind of one-shot setups.

I'm not quite sure you grasp the concept behind the support/slave systems. They were made in away so that you do not need to go 100%, you could tweak the values to get the reload/damage/speeds/etc you wanted out of your weapon. If explosive was set to a max radius of 10 for example, 50% support would give you a radius of 5, the value it is set to would serve as the hardcap to prevent cannons/beams from completely overtaking missiles on capital ships. A Normal cannon/- dealing more damage and having a bigger hole than a nuke for example would be balance breaking.

As well, the damage dealt to each block is Damage/#BlocksHit, with a radius of 1, damage is divided by 6, since 6 blocks would be hit ideally. This means that small ship weapons would have to use smaller support %s for explosive, or else their damage would be too spread out to have any effect on armoured blocks, and larger ships would use the full 100% for maximum breakage.

but welp... they need some love for sure. The damage reduction after each block travelled (currently 50%?) is way too high.

I think Pierce is 60%, since it is suppose to do more damage to hull at the cost of shield damage (when they were both 50%, they did the same damage).

Adding the ability to effectivly damage blocks artificially using effect-moduls is not as efficient as using a more potent weapon to begin with.

But Effect blocks also count towards the DPS of the array, Master+Slave+Effect=Array size, it is just as effective to add Punch effect to a gun as it is for the gun to inherently have Punch, it does not save space or increase damage at all. That's the part I don't get, since they would not allow weapons to have effects that surpass the already existing effects. If cannons got Pierce, it would be the same as the pierce effect (Because of 'balance'), and an inherit explosive effect would still be bugged, just like the effect. You gain no advantage at all, you just shuffled stuff around and removed some combustibility.

 

[EtherEel]

It's kinda in an odd place, might be easier to make other weapons more appealing than it is to make Cannon/Cannon less appealing.

Yeah, probly that is better.

Having an enemy-only, auto-locking, bulk missile spitter seems OP, it would become worse than Cannon/Cannon is atm.

Well, that's why I couched it in a question.... 'Cuz I don't play with others. I don't really like the shotgun version of missiles to begin with (just a personal thing), Missile weapon is "overly effective" in the current structure. The cone idea is worth consideration.

A question about inherit explosive or punch effects; Why is this so sought after? I'm just asking in general, but how is a weapon being able to break X extra blocks any different than adding those effect blocks to the weapon? Most other effects would override them (EMP, Ion, Any momentum effect), and the few that wouldn't would lead to combinations like Explosive+Punch at the same time (You'd still be breaking the same number of blocks, since this does not add damage).

It truly gains no advantage other than just adding those effects to the weapon. Are effects that expensive? Or is it cause Explosive is bugged and cannot be increased beyond 1, and people think that was a design choice? Why do people think this would add anything to the game, aside from a free change in crater?

Because of the inherent "explosive" effect of Missiles (?) -- which is usually even amplified by the actual Explosive Effect. Maybe missiles shouldn't be allowed to have this effect either (since they can't have Punch or Pierce), or nerf the Explosive effect radius bonus? I think the general feeling is that "we gotta do something to help these other weapons because Missiles are dominating the game." Whether such a "feeling" is reality or merely a perception is the bigger issue, I suppose.

Maybe Missiles need a longer cooldown in general. Maybe increased rate of fire should come with an accuracy penalty -- and Cannon/Pulse type of stuff should have greater projectile speed and accuracy.

I think it's universally desired that all weapon combos be viable and effective -- making them so and how to do it is the problem. ( --Captain Obvious takes a bow-- )

-----

Ya know, I was also thinking that alla youz who "tweak" yer servers with top-speed increases and the like are kinda breaking the balance of weapons even more. (Just thinking that though, cuz I'm not on such a server.) Any response to that notion, veterans?

 

[CyberTao]

Maybe Missiles need a longer cooldown in general. Maybe increased rate of fire should come with an accuracy penalty -- and Cannon/Pulse type of stuff should have greater projectile speed and accuracy.

I'm more looking towards the HP system for the missile OP-ness fix I guess. With it is a Ship-wide Armour Migration system (I dunno what to call it), which I had heard Cal talk about a few times. The more hull you have, the more damage gets shaved off a projectile when it damages Armoured blocks (Anything with a natural armour rating), and Missile comes into contact with a lot of hull (especially if it hits a multi-layer section of hull, which I expect to see with this system).

With any luck, due to how a missile would interact with so much hull, it will reduce the amount of damage the ship actually takes from a missile hit. Lobbing volley after volley of missiles at a ship with many layers of hull and PD would then seem kinda ineffective no? Would that not give more of an advantage to a punch/pierce penetrating weapon like a cannon or beam? Then again, that all depends on the missile staging system, and if punch/pierce will ever do anything for missiles.

Would be at least interesting, no?

 

[Lecic]

Ya know, I was also thinking that alla youz who "tweak" yer servers with top-speed increases and the like are kinda breaking the balance of weapons even more. (Just thinking that though, cuz I'm not on such a server.) Any response to that notion, veterans?

The high speeds that most servers use most definitely fuck with the balance of weapons. It makes it impossible for PD to take down missiles, and it makes cannons feel like hitscan weapons.

 

[Dragleones]

As well, the damage dealt to each block is Damage/#BlocksHit, with a radius of 1, damage is divided by 6, since 6 blocks would be hit ideally. This means that small ship weapons would have to use smaller support %s for explosive, or else their damage would be too spread out to have any effect on armoured blocks, and larger ships would use the full 100% for maximum breakage.

Thats why i proposed that the radius of the explosiv effect should depend on the initial damage of the weapon system.
It would be bizarre for a cannon-array consisting of 10 cannonbarrels with 100% explosive effect support to have a splash radius of 10.
While for a cannon consisting of a few million cannon-blocks, that consumes energy 50 times the blockcount of this cannon a splash radius of 10 is a joke.
A weapon of this size should leave a respectable crater. Not one of the size of a similar sized missile configuration. But still respectable.

I should have clarified that when i was speaking about making the radius dependant on initial damage, i was referring to the maximum range (-> currently 10 according to blockbehaviorconfig.xml).
A 50% effect support would be a corresponding percentage of the "radius dependant on initial damage" (->in this case: 50% of the "radius dependant on initial damage")
In addition: its just a matter of tweaking numbers to make sure it won't go over the top (-> apply diminishing return...)

But please make the radius scale with the weapon damage otherweise we'll have tiny guns featuring giant splash (leaving just a few scratches) and giant guns still featuring tiny craters.

But Effect blocks also count towards the DPS of the array, Master+Slave+Effect=Array size, it is just as effective to add Punch effect to a gun as it is for the gun to inherently have Punch, it does not save space or increase damage at all. That's the part I don't get, since they would not allow weapons to have effects that surpass the already existing effects.

Interesting. Didn't knew that. Thanks for rectifying the misinformation on this one.

 

[EtherEel]

Would that not give more of an advantage to a punch/pierce penetrating weapon like a cannon or beam?

I can only think that a penetrative quality of a weapon is only useful if it, in a sense, creates a "breach" in the armor, and then whether there is another weapon that can take advantage of such a breach. As it stands now, cannons/beams only naturally damage 1 block at a time. If there is a weapon that can take that 1-block-breach and tear it open, then the pierce is worth something, otherwise the "wall" of armor just gets "pin-pricked." Maybe missile fire will only be effective after enough breaches have weakened the armor. I dunno...

It's kinda like the Castle vs. Siege Engine type-of-thing. Either offense or defense will have the advantage -- until the devs make a change... (And history eventually favored offense -- the trebuchet put true castles out of business.)

But Effect blocks also count towards the DPS of the array, Master+Slave+Effect=Array size

Hey! I knew that! Does that mean I'm no longer a Class-1 Noob??? plz plz plz!!!

 

[CyberTao]

Interesting. Didn't knew that. Thanks for rectifying the misinformation on this one.

I think the reason people do not know this is because it wasn't like that originally. It caused concerns and eventually it was silently brought over to make effects count I believe. It would be a joke otherwise, especially for Ion and Overdrive if you think about it. Give up 1/3 (or even 1/2 if you don't use slaves) of your weapon to get double shield damage and no hull damage? Who would even buy that in this age of min/maxing.

Spoiler: This was much longer than expected

If there is a weapon that can take that 1-block-breach and tear it open, then the pierce is worth something, otherwise the "wall" of armor just gets "pin-pricked."

If I can tell you a small story, I will tell you of how people are strange. I hear people talking about balance, bout how weapon X can do this compared to Y, and complaints about out "16 weapons". We don't have 16 weapons, we have 20. People always forget about the default weapons, or even the incredible amount of variation from playing with the slave percents. Every weapon is given a slave on principal, it somehow makes it better than it is by default, despite that not being true at all.

Weapons by definition almost need to have a slave these days it feels, but effects are just throw aside. Effects are just as big a part of the weapon system as a slave is, but somehow slaves always take center stage over balance issues, and effects are ignored to a greater extent. It's just weird.

People seem to consider effects to be trivial addons for special effects, like smoke during a concert, when in reality they are a major part of weapons really. A 'standard' weapon doesn't really exist in my opinion, a weapon is what you turn it into. If you want a weapon to have punch, you were given the option to give it Punch, or Ion, or Emp.

A bit of this seems based on the fact that missiles can be boosted with explosive effect. The idea of Explosive, Punch and Pierce was to allow you to break more blocks if you had the extra power. Punch does it at the cost of hull damage (it's suppose to do less versus armour iirc), Pierce traded shield damage, and Explosive gave you a larger area to spread the damage over (and was capped due to limitations).

Missiles also have a natural AoE and staging system, but they were given a counter in the form of PD. If you are gonna give other weapons an AoE like missiles, then shouldn't you also give then a counter as well? If every weapon had the ability to spread out damage like missiles, then why should only missiles be given a hard-counter? Things like passive punch effect can only reduce piercing damage to a certain extent, and require a lot of space to do that, where as a couple PD turrets do not need much space, and potentially negate all damage (depends on server settings). Where is the balance there?

People are strange sometimes, they will ask for things they had already been given, but don't stop to think about why it was done like this, or how to counter it otherwise. They compare X to Y, but fail to realize Y had a hard life and lost his mother at the age of 6, so of course they would be different.

Did I ever tell you I like to babble? Cause I do. Vote for me for Council o7

Hey! I knew that! Does that mean I'm no longer a Class-1 Noob??? plz plz plz!!!

How long have you been here? Far longer than the average noob I feel, most of those come and go after a week or so. Grats on the promotion.

And you were spot on with the whole server settings and balance thing. Everything was balanced for default settings, changing them around needs a little more than just tweaking a single number most times.

 

[EtherEel]

Well, I'm not entirely sure if the in content of "Spoiler: This was much longer than expected" you were agreeing or disagreeing with me or just soliloquizing (or all of those!) Certainly worth the contemplation.

Glad I'm a Noob-Corporal now and not just PFC-Noob or FNG

Also glad to know I'm not wrong ALL the time... (But I'll likely always be rather oblique.)

Did I ever tell you I like to babble? Cause I do. Vote for me for Council o7

Forums are for babblers. My vote could be purchased... maybe...

~

 

[CyberTao]

you were agreeing or disagreeing with me or just soliloquizing (or all of those!) Certainly worth the contemplation.

Sometimes I don't even know. I confuse myself inside my own head and sometimes even contradict myself, so I just babble it all out. I rarely get a response when I do though, since I don't think anyone understands how to respond to it. But that is my entire thought process on Weapon effects/damage scaling/etc, so I'll probably not squabble on about that too much more this thread.

As long as I get people to think, then I did my job. Also, I posted a lot in this thread already, should probably take a break and stop scaring away new commenters.

 

[Lidren]

I am going to respond briefly to the op and read though this thread again later to expand on it and address other comments. Great thread BTW.

While I agree that there are issues with weapons, and numerous possibilities for improvement/balance/tweaking, I do not agree that it is entirely in the realm of degenerate strategy. The sole reason for this is that with the complexity of the m/s/e vs de arrary there are many avenues that are ignored, unexplored, or admittedly useless. There simply is not IMO one type of weapon, or one set of weapons that takes the cake whole.

I for instance work with hot swapping effects during combat. A rapid ion effect cannon turns to explosive or pierce once target shields are down and the ion effect that was slaved to the weapon becomes a defense effect. Honestly, I use beams for this more often if I am in a smaller lighter ship that can force range. My missiles are more often than not turreted missile/pulse/explosive. They are a power drain, but the constant fire assists in shield takedown and makes sure that missiles are away once the shields are down. 50% Emp beam turrets increase my defense against drones and ai swarms of any kind to near 100%, though in most cases well done drone swarms can break that too.

I have to reiterate, I totally agree with the conclusion that there is much room for improvement and even balance in the form of de-equalizing per block damage or other methods. I can't however personally agree that there are only a few end all be all systems. The question or statement always comes up ("which is best weapon" and "this is best weapon") and I'll always disagree. Not to be devils advocate, but because I know that even the most rigorous experimentation breaks completely in an actual firefight.

 

[NuclearFun]

instead of cutting down the range of rapid fire guns i would prefer to give faster firing weapons a lower accuracy ...but that would also need an AI redo. That would also cure the sadness that is an AI using a sniper cannon.

 

[Lecic]

instead of cutting down the range of rapid fire guns i would prefer to give faster firing weapons a lower accuracy ...but that would also need an AI redo. That would also cure the sadness that is an AI using a sniper cannon.

It'd need to be inaccurate with both AI and Player firing.

 

[NuclearFun]

It'd need to be inaccurate with both AI and Player firing.

Yes. The accuracy would be solely depending on the weapon system, removing the need for an inaccurate AI and so making sniper turrets more viable while ciws turrets more or less stay the same and having a small balancing effect on player used weaponry (core drilling gets harder for instance).

 

[CyberTao]

If you could manage to force an inaccuracy onto weapons (shots have a chance of veering off by a angle), you could use that to fix shotguns as well. But I think it was said that that kind of random shot mechanic would be too laggy (more calculations upon firing large waffle arrays for example).