Spaced Armor; Key to Vctory

[Harbinger_OF_Cthulhu]

So lets talk about this SM version 0.19320 and the changes it made to missile targeting... I have been testing lock on and heat seeker missiles. Turns out if you have all your system blocks tucked away from exterior armor with a minimum range of about 7-10 blocks you will suffer no damage to any structure hp or systems within the ship. You will lose shields and also armor hp but the targets of the missiles will remain the system blocks resulting in no damage being done to structure hp. Pretty cool. So go out there and build spaced armor ships quick and crush your enemies before this is fixed! (so long as they only use those two times of weapons) xD

 

[Crusade]

This is not a bug lol.

Armor has to be eaten though/destroyed. As your Armor HP goes down, you'll notice missile doing more and more damage, Ship HP is provided by the systems you have tucked away.

Yes, this is a more effective way of building, and I believe it to be entirely intentional from the way you've described it.

 

[Harbinger_OF_Cthulhu]

It most certainly is a bug.

Missiles literally will not damage the system blocks on the inside... They will not destroy the armor blocks on the outside when en route to the systems blocks hidden whithin... Try it, put all your system blocks about 7-10 block spaces (or more if you really want to test it) from any exterior armor. then fire on the ship with heat seakers or lock ons. The armor hp and shield hp will reduce but no armor will be destroyed and no system blocks will be destroyed.

 

[Crusade]

Oh, yes. That seems like an issue lol.

 

[starhaiden]

I have a question does the hull get destroyed when the ship runs out of armor hp?

 

[Harbinger_OF_Cthulhu]

I have a question does the hull get destroyed when the ship runs out of armor hp?

No it doesn't. But I'd assume it shouldn't matter in the first place as the damage should exceed the armor block hp value well before armor hp is depleted as this is a 20 million damage missile array (each missile 10 million damage).
[DOUBLEPOST=1436690018,1436689757][/DOUBLEPOST]But the issue is because the missiles aren't targeting the armor in the first place they are targeting the system blocks. The missiles trigger on contact yeah? Resulting in them not reached their target (due to the spaced armor). But since they weren't targeting in the armor the damage is voided, I guess... Thus, essentially fizzling in space on contact when destination is unable to be met due to some form of contact inhibition.
[DOUBLEPOST=1436690545][/DOUBLEPOST]It's like this, if they can reach their target then the explode, the damage effect bloom happens, which effects other blocks around area. If they can't reach target then they "fizzle out" even if they hit something (but only on the entity from where the systems are being targeted). Because they aren't targeting the ship (armor). Instead they are targeting each individual system array (which maybe be treated as individual entities which may be pulling over the turret bug as well. Idk Just extrapolating on extrapolation.)

 

[DivineEvil]

I wouldn't even bother to fix this issue TBH. A very specific rule required to build such manner of protection is a significant drawback to ship's dimensions, missiles are abused too much anyway, you still losing a great deal of AHP and direct fire weapons can still make a breach for missiles to work trough, and the least popular dumb-fire missiles are perfect for that role.

I wonder if providing explosive effect increases the radius of detection...

 

[StormWing0]

Simple fix: Primary Target = System blocks, Secondary Target = Whatever gets in the way. This would mean missiles should detonate correctly even if they hit armor rather than fizzling out.

 

[Harbinger_OF_Cthulhu]

I wouldn't even bother to fix this issue TBH. A very specific rule required to build such manner of protection is a significant drawback to ship's dimensions, missiles are abused too much anyway, you still losing a great deal of AHP and direct fire weapons can still make a breach for missiles to work trough, and the least popular dumb-fire missiles are perfect for that role.

I wonder if providing explosive effect increases the radius of detection...

Explosive effect may help, but this bug really cripples larger ship combat tbh. Also it wouldn't really be hard to make a shell around any combat ship to take advantage of this. Also "making a breach" is a cool idea but heat seekers and lock ons don't look for armor breaches they just go to the systems in the most direct rout.
[DOUBLEPOST=1436759889,1436759663][/DOUBLEPOST]

Simple fix: Primary Target = System blocks, Secondary Target = Whatever gets in the way. This would mean missiles should detonate correctly even if they hit armor rather than fizzling out.

Hope it gets fixed!!! If not it will make cannon cannon turrets for block destruction the next best thing, imo.

 

[StormWing0]

Could make a warhead launcher that sends rounds down range as fast as you can get them. The Problem is the amount of entities you'd need to pull it off so I'm guessing why dock them when you can use a push/pull effect combo to hold them in place. The catch is the ship in question wouldn't be able to use a jump drive due to leaving the ammo behind.

 

[DivineEvil]

Explosive effect may help, but this bug really cripples larger ship combat tbh. Also it wouldn't really be hard to make a shell around any combat ship to take advantage of this. Also "making a breach" is a cool idea but heat seekers and lock ons don't look for armor breaches they just go to the systems in the most direct rout.

I wouldn't define it as crippling, it's more like 'make those stupid HSMs useless, muahaha'. Again, missiles are easy to and are abused a lot. Heatseekers for one is as non-skilled weapon as you can get. I always considered these as anti-fighter or mine-clearing weapons, rather than something you'd use against large ships. Still, the extents you'll have to go to 'abuse' this bug is extraordinary.

There's not much wrong with spaced armor plating. It inreases the size of your ship, it requires a lot more armor to cover the systems and thus makes your ship much heavier and harder for handling, than in the air-tight designs. It is also something you'll often end up with when building a ship outside-in. Exterior modular armor plates would also be more effective if the given issue is left as is. Use those Cannons, human!

Yes they do, and when you use direct-fire weapons to make the breach, the 'most direct route' is one right ahead of you. As long as enemy ship still faces you, there's a strong probability the next volley will go right inside.

Could make a warhead launcher that sends rounds down range as fast as you can get them. The Problem is the amount of entities you'd need to pull it off so I'm guessing why dock them when you can use a push/pull effect combo to hold them in place. The catch is the ship in question wouldn't be able to use a jump drive due to leaving the ammo behind.

Well, you'll need one entity for each warhead, and another entity for each launch revolver. Some 'logic is magic' and voila.

 

[Harbinger_OF_Cthulhu]

I wouldn't define it as crippling, it's more like 'make those stupid HSMs useless, muahaha'. Again, missiles are easy to and are abused a lot. Heatseekers for one is as non-skilled weapon as you can get. I always considered these as anti-fighter or mine-clearing weapons, rather than something you'd use against large ships. Still, the extents you'll have to go to 'abuse' this bug is extraordinary.

There's not much wrong with spaced armor plating. It inreases the size of your ship, it requires a lot more armor to cover the systems and thus makes your ship much heavier and harder for handling, than in the air-tight designs. It is also something you'll often end up with when building a ship outside-in. Exterior modular armor plates would also be more effective if the given issue is left as is. Use those Cannons, human!

Yes they do, and when you use direct-fire weapons to make the breach, the 'most direct route' is one right ahead of you. As long as enemy ship still faces you, there's a strong probability the next volley will go right inside.

Well, you'll need one entity for each warhead, and another entity for each launch revolver. Some 'logic is magic' and voila.

Yes that's the point when you have a ship of 400k mass and above, you can't turn fast enough to use dumb fire, lock ons, cannons or beams. You rely on large heat seeker arrays to deal with small fighter craft (situational but usually recommended) and large turrets. I didn't mean use them against large ships I'm saying some (most) large ships need them to function outside of fleet combat.

You can use hull and will get same effect, hull is very light and wont increase ship mass. But the point is by adding that small amount of mass it renders your ship impervious to two weapon types...

Most people do not use horizontal forward launching lock ons if they plan on surviving in pvp (as these it sounds like would potentially work the best in regards to this breach in hull idea)... Also the missiles do no "see" the break. They have no code to scan for holes in armor. They see the data points and locations for system blocks then take a direct path to them (while following the flight code dictators dictated by weapon type). Also these lock ons seem to target different systems each time they fire. Very little consistency in them which is also counter intuitive because lock on missiles by nature are supposed to be very accurate. Also when in combat one or more of the entities are moving. This also decreases chances of any form of consistency in missile contact locations, which would have helped if you try to make holes for them to go through. Adding all of this up, spaced armor is really crippling currently, it nullifies 2 weapon types completely, and when I say completely I mean 100% no damage to systems hp which is the new bread and butter of ship combat.

 

[Lecic]

Yes that's the point when you have a ship of 400k mass and above, you can't turn fast enough to use dumb fire, lock ons, cannons or beams.

Quick question- have you ever actually played the game with 400k mass+ ships? Because ships past around... 300m long, maybe? They turn at the same exact speed. And ships of that size can definitely be used with these kinds of weapons against small ships as long as the small ship doesn't have a massive thrust advantage.

Also these lock ons seem to target different systems each time they fire. Very little consistency in them which is also counter intuitive because lock on missiles by nature are supposed to be very accurate.

Would you prefer the system where it targeted center of mass, leading to ships like Cobalt Royalty's Donut that was immune to lock on missiles and turrets because they'd fly right through the center?

Targeting random systems is a placeholder system. We're getting the ability to target specific systems in the future.

t nullifies 2 weapon types completely

It nullifies the two most overused and overpowered weapon types (lock-ons and swarmers), provided someone is actually going to fit their ships with this massive, bulky hull system. I think we'll be fine while this is getting fixed.

By the way, did you put this on the bug tracker? It's not going to be fixed if you just post it on the forums.

 

[AndyP]

So lets talk about this SM version 0.19320 and the changes it made to missile targeting... I have been testing lock on and heat seeker missiles. Turns out if you have all your system blocks tucked away from exterior armor with a minimum range of about 7-10 blocks you will suffer no damage to any structure hp or systems within the ship. You will lose shields and also armor hp but the targets of the missiles will remain the system blocks resulting in no damage being done to structure hp. Pretty cool. So go out there and build spaced armor ships quick and crush your enemies before this is fixed! (so long as they only use those two times of weapons) xD

As this is some type of exploit, you would possibly have helped more with reporting it in our bug-tracker, however will watch this, and investigate this problem within the next days. It its intended for missiles to target systems only, and to some extend even wanted that you can armor your systems to make that armor that will attend the missiles catch them. However, they should still explode when approaching the hull instead of stupidly running into the hull and get destroyed by collision. (I assume that happens somehow..)
Not sure to be honest, but this reads like its a bug.

- Andy

 

[RedDwarfIV]

The idea of spaced armour in real life is that the space between the two armour plates will absorb the shock and keep the inner armour intact. The space equivalent is known as a Whipple Shield.

The way I see it, the outer armour should still get damaged, while the inner layer is protected.

 

[Lancake]

It most certainly is a bug.

Missiles literally will not damage the system blocks on the inside... They will not destroy the armor blocks on the outside when en route to the systems blocks hidden whithin... Try it, put all your system blocks about 7-10 block spaces (or more if you really want to test it) from any exterior armor. then fire on the ship with heat seakers or lock ons. The armor hp and shield hp will reduce but no armor will be destroyed and no system blocks will be destroyed.

I did try it, and damage was dealt just fine, the hull was destroyed and even a few missiles got through and damaged the system blocks completely. It could be that each missile just didn't have enough damage to bring down enough HP on armor blocks to show damage, what was its damage (per group, not total)?

 

[Harbinger_OF_Cthulhu]

I did try it, and damage was dealt just fine, the hull was destroyed and even a few missiles got through and damaged the system blocks completely. It could be that each missile just didn't have enough damage to bring down enough HP on armor blocks to show damage, what was its damage (per group, not total)?

Did you test with dumb fired missiles or Lock ons/ heat seekers?
[DOUBLEPOST=1438122233,1438122159][/DOUBLEPOST]

As this is some type of exploit, you would possibly have helped more with reporting it in our bug-tracker, however will watch this, and investigate this problem within the next days. It its intended for missiles to target systems only, and to some extend even wanted that you can armor your systems to make that armor that will attend the missiles catch them. However, they should still explode when approaching the hull instead of stupidly running into the hull and get destroyed by collision. (I assume that happens somehow..)
Not sure to be honest, but this reads like its a bug.

- Andy

Andy, Can this be moved to the bug section? Because this issue is also effecting pirate stations spawning pirates.
[DOUBLEPOST=1438122311][/DOUBLEPOST]At least this is what I'm seeing on my server. Could be different on other? Not sure.
[DOUBLEPOST=1438123772][/DOUBLEPOST]I've noticed some aspects of the game break due to servers being updated and it takes a restart to fix them. Since my original post the observed effects have not occurred again.

 

[Lancake]

Did you test with dumb fired missiles or Lock ons/ heat seekers?
[DOUBLEPOST=1438122233,1438122159][/DOUBLEPOST]

Your message stated lock on missiles and heat seekers so I tried both. Works fine for me on the test server.
So the issue is not occurring anymore for you? Then probably the missile thread stopped working at some point, although then you should not get any SHP or AHP damage either I think so not entirely sure about that.