Space battles should be more epic

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    All the ideas are great, except:


    More Shields


    A really, really bad idea. I hate when a fight takes forever to win... or lose.


    Fires


    Don\'t take me wrong, this is an awesome idea, but the game needs a working life-support system first. I mean, you place a core outside yor ship, it should not burn. The game must have real oxygen system before fires can be added.
     

    FlyingDebris

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    But, I have a solution to that, and it could eliminate another issue-

    Better hulls!

    Hulls just need more durability, then people will use them more, due to them becoming just as powerful as shields.
     
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    Now let\'s try something different. How about you go and spend several weeks building a large (5 million blocks or more) capital ship, then come back and tell us exactly how quickly some noob that joined the server 10 minutes ago should be able to destroy all of your hard work with their little fighter and \"mega-bomb\" that they got with their starting credits.


    You disprove your own point here. If he\'s able to so easily get a hold of cash then there\'s no excuse for you to not have cash to purchase another.


    For your silly/tiny radar-jamming ships, the only thing they\'ll do is increase server load. A single ship like that won\'t (and shouldn\'t) do enough damage to notice, and if you think making the server crash by unleashing hundreds of them (in the hope of causing a noticeable amount of damage) is a sane idea then you\'re beyond help. If you invent a new bomb that does enough damage and ignores shields, then it\'ll get exploited used to wipe out carriers before they can launch their (justifyably worthless) \"fighter chaff\".


    I don\'t think you\'ve ever fought a jammer ship. I\'m serious. This sounds like a lot of speculation from someone with little to no actual combat experience (pubstomping little kids in their first noobships doesn\'t count). In ANY hands, a jammer ship can disable turrets on the ship, engage defending fighters, and basically outmaneuver your spinally mounted death cannon of dick.


    Once shields are down you are dead. Core-drilling is irrelevant unless the attacker is salvaging blocks.


    I think that\'s sort of the fucking point. Combat shouldn\'t be reliant on how long your shields can hold out; it should be reliant upon the efficiency of the ship coupled with the pilot\'s skill.


    d1000 missiles


    Proof that you have never seen actual fucking combat. D1000s are next to useless in starmade combat. For someone as \"experienced\" as you claim you sure don\'t know much about how to fight in this game.


    Hi,


    I don\'t know what you\'re trying to accomplish but you\'re being almost as pretentious as those obnoxious faggots who add signatures to their posts.
     
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    Sadly, a lot of people are stupid and think a massive ship with a massive amount of thrust should be slower than a small ship with a small amount of thrust. Physics/reality doesn\'t work like that at all (and neither does StarMade), especially when there\'s no drag (e.g. in space).


    Absolutely incorrect on so many levels, and I hate to be cliche and point out exactly how ironic this statement is:


    a lot of people are stupid


    When you follow it up with such a laughable factual error that anyone with a high school education could correct. Every time an object doubles in size, it\'s mass increases 8 times while cross-sectional area (which determines the strength of many things, including the thrust of engines) only increases 4 times. So as a ship gets bigger and bigger, its engines get exponentially more inefficient. Not that I\'d expect a retard to know that.




    I\'m not sure that you\'ve actually played StarMade before, so I\'ll explain it to. If you want to salvage blocks; then you core-drill. If you\'re only trying to destroy someone\'s stuff then you don\'t bother with core-drilling - this is what missiles are for.


    Missiles are inaccurate and with server lag scoring a hit in PvP is nigh impossible. I don\'t see where the assumption that I\'ve never played StarMade comes from, considering I\'m posting on the StarMade forums and I\'m expressing knowledge that you\'d think would only be gained from playing the game, but I\'ll chalk your assumption to down\'s syndrome or a serious form of Asperger\'s.


    For an example, my ship has 48 d1000 missiles each capable of blowing a 30-block wide crater in a ship (once shields are down). When you fire these missiles they all focus on one point and one blows a hole that the others pass through, resulting in many missiles devestating the innards of the target from multiple angles, and often resulting in the entire opposite side of the ship being vapourised. If I don\'t want to core-drill, do you honestly think multiple cores are going to matter? Of course not.


    Nobody is going to sit there and let you shoot d1000 missiles at them, they\'re going to be zipping around, the server is going to be lagging a bit and you\'ll never get a full salvo to land. And no one d1000 will destroy 30 blocks.


    Once shields are down you are dead. Core-drilling is irrelevant unless the attacker is salvaging blocks.

    Salvaging blocks is a great way of getting fast cash, and also a great way to get blocks for factories/recipes. If you don\'t know this then perhaps you need to work on your salvagers. I know I\'d rather spend 2 minutes salvaging an enemy ship to get hardened hulls than spend 2 hours going from one shop to the next just to get enough blocks for a recipe.


    It\'s slow an arduous, and almost completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Why does this game mechanic need to stay so that you can get more hulls to sell for pocket change? I don\'t think anyone cares that much about salvaging ships as you do, especially considering you get bupkis from selling ship components anyways.


    Sadly, for fast cash the game is hideously broken and there are much faster ways (e.g. I have 2 factories on 2 different servers, both pumping out L5 ores faster than I can sell them). Hopefully one day this will be fixed and people will actually have to earn credits instead of just generating free credits. If/when this happens, salvaging will become much more lucrative.


    This is where one makes an assumption that you\'re stricken with some terrible form of Asperger\'s that impairs you to levels of mental retardation. First you\'re saying that we should keep our awful combat system in lieu of a better one because you think it\'s a fast way to make cash, and now you\'re complaining that you make cash to fast?

    What


    For your silly/tiny radar-jamming ships, the only thing they\'ll do is increase server load. A single ship like that won\'t (and shouldn\'t) do enough damage to notice, and if you think making the server crash by unleashing hundreds of them (in the hope of causing a noticeable amount of damage) is a sane idea then you\'re beyond help. If you invent a new bomb that does enough damage and ignores shields, then it\'ll get exploited used to wipe out carriers before they can launch their (justifyably worthless) \"fighter chaff\".


    Did you not even read anything I wrote? Did you read the word \"bomb\" and then immediately have a seizure on top of your keyboard? I said it would cap out at 200 damage in a 5 block radius and its direction would be equal to the ship\'s momentum, which would make it entirely too inaccurate to be used in PVP aboard titans.

    And what is this burning hatred torwards fighters? I\'m not even saying that pretentiously, you are completely against the idea of intelligently integrating fighter-class ships into the meta and are content with just spazzing out barely comprehensible paragraphs written by a retard.


    Now let\'s try something different. How about you go and spend several weeks building a large (5 million blocks or more) capital ship, then come back and tell us exactly how quickly some noob that joined the server 10 minutes ago should be able to destroy all of your hard work with their little fighter and \"mega-bomb\" that they got with their starting credits


    The turrets on my titan have 1.5km range and do 25k dps. His fighter would be dead before it even got close and even if he did get one bomb off I doubt scratching my paint job would hurt my feelings too bad.

    That probably sounded really smart in your head when you wrote it, huh? Too bad like everything else you\'ve written so far it was just pants-on-head retarded and completely out of touch with reality.
     
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    Hi,


    Every time an object doubles in size, it\'s mass increases 8 times while cross-sectional area (which determines the strength of many things, including the thrust of engines) only increases 4 times. So as a ship gets bigger and bigger, its engines get exponentially more inefficient. Not that I\'d expect a retard to know that.


    You\'re so wrong you must be on drugs. If the size doubles (e.g. twice the width, with same height and length) the mass doubles. For the mass to be 8 times as much the size also has to be 8 times as much (e.g. double the width, double the height and double the length). The larger the volume is the more space you have for thrusters. The more thrusters you put in a group the more efficient they get.

    What this means is that the larger a ship is the easier it is to get better mass/thrust ratio (the mass is linear but the thrust isn\'t), which means that huge ships can easily accelerate faster than small ships. Of course it does depend on ship design - most people that build large ships don\'t give it much thrust and use the space for power, AMC or shield, so lots of large ships have low thrust/mass ratio for no real reason (other than design choices).


    Missiles are inaccurate and with server lag scoring a hit in PvP is nigh impossible. I don\'t see where the assumption that I\'ve never played StarMade comes from, considering I\'m posting on the StarMade forums and I\'m expressing knowledge that you\'d think would only be gained from playing the game, but I\'ll chalk your assumption to down\'s syndrome or a serious form of Asperger\'s.


    Missiles are accurate in PvP. The problem is that people don\'t know how to use them, and let shield regenerate while the missiles are in flight, causing them to do no damage when they hit (due to \"missile vs. shield\" bugs).

    The assumption that you\'ve never played StarMade comes from a consistent stream of wrong and broken ideas about game mechanics and a general lack of knowledge that I\'d assume someone would\'ve gained had they played.


    Nobody is going to sit there and let you shoot d1000 missiles at them, they\'re going to be zipping around, the server is going to be lagging a bit and you\'ll never get a full salvo to land. And no one d1000 will destroy 30 blocks.


    Large ships are zipping around now are they? Did you ever actually use a decent sized group of d1000s (or did you just put a group of 20 on a little fighter)?


    First you\'re saying that we should keep our awful combat system in lieu of a better one because you think it\'s a fast way to make cash, and now you\'re complaining that you make cash to fast?


    First I say that we should keep (certain aspects of) the current combat system instead of making them worse for no justifyable reason; and then I continue to hope that the economy will be fixed one day. I can\'t see how a rational person would be confused by this (but not necessarily surprised that you are).


    Did you not even read anything I wrote? Did you read the word \"bomb\" and then immediately have a seizure on top of your keyboard? I said it would cap out at 200 damage in a 5 block radius and its direction would be equal to the ship\'s momentum, which would make it entirely too inaccurate to be used in PVP aboard titans.


    I\'m sorry. I thought you wanted the bomb to actually damage something, not just do less damage than a small missile or a single burst from a beginner\'s AMC.


    And what is this burning hatred torwards fighters? I\'m not even saying that pretentiously, you are completely against the idea of intelligently integrating fighter-class ships into the meta and are content with just spazzing out barely comprehensible paragraphs written by a retard.


    I\'m against the idea that fighters should actually be useful against massive ships. It\'s nonsense.


    The turrets on my titan have 1.5km range and do 25k dps. His fighter would be dead before it even got close and even if he did get one bomb off I doubt scratching my paint job would hurt my feelings too bad.


    And you\'re actually willing to admit that your turrets are so weak in public

    Thank you for showing that your own \"bomb\" (firecracker?) idea would be useless against against weak turrets.
     
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    Okay Qweesdy, evidently you live in a world of pretentious manchildren where d1000s instantly vaporize enemy ships, selling hull to shops is the quickest way to make money, and real-world and in-game physics are so indistinguishable that discussions of the two blur together whenever convenient.

    I\'m pretty sure we\'re not even speaking the same language considering how you\'re incapable of following segues into arguments you yourself are purporting, so I\'m not replying to you anymore. This is has been a wonderful waste of time.
     
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    A ship should be destroyed by taking out the engines, weapon systems and such. Not having more cores!
    More cores.. yes well it could work but what if they split your ship in half? Should it still work? I am not sure if it is a good idea!
     
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    Suggestions are good. Most would improve combat a lot. The inclination to call each other retards for attempting to discuss this is, however, deplorable...

    I believe Saria does have the right idea here, whereas Qweesdy might just happen to be a retard... Though, there\'s no reason to continue pushing it with every sentence or point. It\'s not particulary hard to see how people would come to a possibly skewed understanding. This is what happens if not all information is available, or if information that is available is a tad obscure or already based on false assumptions.

    So, play nice.

    I also agree with Ithirahad. The core is too important to the game. Too central.. Too silly, that just its destruction equals your death. Yet, at the same time.. It\'s a very \"cheap\" way to make combat (kind of) work, even if it makes it short, not particulary as epic as ya\'d hope, and not at all rewarding or satisfying.

    It is also possible to create \'decoy\' cores, for turrets and ships alike to target, within a ship. Interior docking is a thing. As are interior defence systems against possible boarding. ^-^

    Carriers are useless, as they are.. While having AI return to them would make them a tad more viable, they remain less efficient than a ship carrying turrets for the same surface. They\'d be uncommon. Will remain uncommon, probably, entirely dependant on the odd person wanting to fly a carrier.

    Same goes for tiny fighters. Aren\'t vessels a player wants to be sitting in. Aren\'t vessels people would want to sit in, in a space battle. Cause they\'re cannonfodder. Basically dead. If materials and credits are more difficult to gain, cheap fighters would be more common and viable, as people simply couldn\'t manage to build big or giant ships, without a truly large endeavour, or the actual building of it by hand..

    Right now, people generally fly either good looking, semi-efficient ships.. Or fly pure combat effective cubes of ugly. And that\'s a shame. One shouldn\'t need to give up beauty for efficiency. One should be able to combine it perfectly into something deadly yet attractive.
     
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    Hi


    I believe Saria does have the right idea here, whereas Qweesdy might just happen to be a retard... Though, there\'s no reason to continue pushing it with every sentence or point. It\'s not particulary hard to see how people would come to a possibly skewed understanding. This is what happens if not all information is available, or if information that is available is a tad obscure or already based on false assumptions.


    For the record, I assure you I\'m not a retard. However, I am more familiar with technical discussions (programmers) where if someone questions the logic behind \"space ships that carry space ships\" they\'re a lot more likely to receive a rational list of (potential) advantages than the incoherent screechings of a banshee.. ;-)
     
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    Why are you guys so against fighters? They should be able to aviod hits and go faster then capitals. If a giant ship can go faster than a tiny ship, then how does that make sense? Small ships are more munuverable, faster, though weaker, than capitals. You can either have immense power, slow speed, and the ability to shred weak yet big ships, or have less power, fast speed, and more agility.

    And blocks that had no connection to the main ship should break off and be seperate.
     

    FlyingDebris

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    Starmade doesn\'t have to be accurate. If you want accuracy, go back to KSP. schema is in charge here, and if he wanted to, rainbows could replace AMCS, and ships would be required to have some sort of reproductive organ to work. Starmade doesn\'t have to follow the laws of physics if schema doesn\'t want it to.
     

    Snk

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    Instead of that, making it so the core isn\'t where the player is, it\'s the cockpit. You\'d need to create a bridge like on a real ship. Also, dynamic shields. And maybe reactors could have a change of exploding, so you could like take out the engines or something.
     
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    If materials and credits are more difficult to gain, cheap fighters would be more common and viable, as people simply couldn\'t manage to build big or giant ships, without a truly large endeavour, or the actual building of it by hand..


    Exactly. You took the words right out of my mouth.

    Also, this is an opinion, a suggestion, so please post constructive criticism. There is no reason to go at each other\'s throats like this. Play nice. :D
     
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    Alright people, I think we have enough ad hominem to alert moderators. I am sure that while it\'s okay to disagree, calling people retards, criticizing personal beliefs and making dick-wagging contest of \'my turret design is better than your horrible turret design\' is not really encouraged by developers. Thus, I suggest you\'d stop as it serves completely no purpose beyond petty ego-stroking and making the situation worse.

    To address some of the suggestions here:

    - Shields
    I do believe they shouldn\'t be increased. Generally, most of the community agreed in the recent discussion on twitter that AMC are the culprit that has to be severely nerfed and that hull is a bit too much of a papermache in case of bigger ships, while it should be nearly - if not as much - viable defense as shields are (if thick enough, in plenty of layers). Balancing in this direction is not finished, if I am not mistaken.

    On one hand, directional shielding or shield weak points seem like an interesting idea, but on the other - I am worried about work needed, breaking the balance and effect on multiplayer in regards to overspecialization. To be honest, I am not sure it\'s worth it - current shielding works fine, sans aforementioned balance.

    - Cores and things related
    I personally feel no need for multiple cores, it could even create difficulties. However, making different auxiliary control stations for different subsystems of bigger ships, turret override etc would be interesting. I do agree that cores seem to require some work. Not only, as I\'ve repeated often enough, I am not fond of how they work - magical cubes sucking the pilot and tying his life with the integrity of said core - but they seem to be nearly the only one valuable target. Theoretically, one can say that disabling thrusters or cannons is a viable tactic, but when one is at a position to destroy such modules, one can as well just go straight for the core for maximum efficiency.

    Fires seem like a synchronization nightmare - I can only imagine how bad it will be when game willtrack temperature and then scattered fire damage for ships participating in battle and then exchange the data with all the clients. Though it also really depends on how the servers will work. I am not overly fond of it as random spreading damage. However, the idea behind the fire suggestions I can certainly support - so far design of too many starships is basically \'make the interior a solid block with exception of some way for player to activate core\'. Having actual need for proper corridors, decks etc and possibly even multiple players per bigger ship for maintenance would be wonderful, though I suspect that many of those who like to fly around in some behemoths on their own would complain.

    Ideally, one day I\'d be able to make my character sit in the chair built in a cockpit, with proper console nearby so I can reach it while sitting and join some fight while being aware that said character can be taken out by boarding party, some high-powered projectile that won\'t hit the target itself or - unless dressed in hermetic suit with limited oxygen supply - life support failure. Or team up with a trusted acquaintance in control of the ship which is simply too big for the control of all systems to be performed from a single console (fighters, scoutships and other barely-frigates however should have centralized interface). But I understand it if not everyone want to play game like such.

    - Carriers
    Carriers should have their uses and fighters/bombers should be of some threat to bigger units, especially in a game where, sadly, bigger units, after being built require about the same the smaller ones do - single guy to utilize their full potential. While quality should be valued over quantity, it makes both sense and is realistic to employ number of short-range, slow, high-payload missile bomber crafts for taking out bigger tactical targets and for said targets to employ interceptors and point-defense turrets to counter such threat.

    However, balancing must be carefully tested and taken into account to make creation of big ships and carriers full of combat drones a decent option - I mean costs of production, lethality and things like number of drones that can be activated simultaneously by one carrier, to avoid thousands-ship big lagfests. I certainly wouldn\'t want every and any little fighter to be able to take out actively defending-itself battlecruiser on it\'s own, but I do believe that squadrons shooting a powerful, but \'won\'t reload before sunday\'-slow salvo would an interesting thing to behold.

    Let\'s remember though that in case of those fighters - AI controlled ones will probably function far worse than player squadrons would, which is both fair and a bit of balancing on it\'s own.

    I agree with the idea of credits and materials being too accessible. As the game is, it\'s very easy to accumulate considerable wealth in rather short time, especially in a multiplayer game, among factions who - I\'d assume - would be utilizing fighter squadrons the most.
     
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    I am sure that it\'s obvious and everyone knows that Schema is the one making decisions but I still don\'t see why should it mean that realism is without worth - if community does voice the opinion that this or that aspect of the game needs some tweaking, and it does voice it in a coherent, reasonable manner I am willing to risk a claim that Schema will take that into consideration. After all, he makes the game for the players.
     

    Ithirahad

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    If AMCs are going to be weakened, it had better be just by diminishing returns - say, a 10-block-long AMC weenie should barely lose any damage, but a massive 10000-some block doom cannon should lose a significant amount of... well, doom.
     

    FlyingDebris

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    Most people actually want more atmospheric controls for ships under a certain mass.
     
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    Right now, regular hull is the equivalent of tissue paper, and hardened hull isn\'t much better... if the server config is modified to boost the health values of either, they just seem to spawn in damaged. And since an AstroTechnobeam just repairs the outer layer (it REALLY needs to be an AE repair, much like the missiles deliver AE damage), that still leaves the player stripping an existing ship apart to fix all the damaged hull blocks. Not fun :(
     
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    I think that they should just add more weapons like emps that disable an area of a ship so it is useless or they should make amcs better by making it so if you have a couple hundred then the amcs do damage spread out. also if part of a ship gets hit by a missle it could send out debris that can damge ships. you could also make it so that if your ship overheats a certain radius from a planet, it descends to the planet and crashes leaving a crater. They should make more hand held weapons and jetpacks so that you can move faster and sprint (jetpack) and have epic battle inside a ship with more weapons. Personally this is what I think would be epic.
     

    MrFURB

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    Hey folks, Just read up on the latest replies here, and this is what I\'m gathering so far:

    1. The ship core enables win/loss in combat, but doesn\'t do so with enough grace.
    2. There is a major lack of rock/paper/scissors action going on. Currently, fights are rock vs. rock with the harder rock winning. Not healthy for variance of playstyle at all.
    3. Big ships having the same speed as smaller ships is a no-go (Absolutely wrecks combat, as it is), but big ships still need to be able to get places without tearing your hair out in frustration.
    4. Player count is currently both the greatest and least important gate on power.
    5. A good ship can easily overcome the value of a good pilot in many situations. Fighting a lesser ship even when it\'s got a good pilot in it is too easy. The man who builds a ship should have just as much effect on if the ship wins a fight as the one who pilots it.

    If that doesn\'t cover it all or you think that I\'m missing something important go ahead and tell me.

    As for solutions to these problems, I can think of a few, but my mind is just one of this community\'s many. I\'ll start with the first problem on the list:

    1.

    Switch the IFF (diamond indicator thingy) from being placed on your ship\'s core to being placed on your ship\'s geometric center.

    Frankly, the core defeat mechanic might not be the prettiest, but it\'s intuitive, easy to identify, and generates play and counterplay around that central objective in fights. The problem as I see it is that it\'s so convenient and simple that it appears to be the only viable choice to defeat an enemy, blotting out other options and objectives like the sun blots out the stars.

    Let\'s say we hide ship core instead of blatantly pointing out it\'s location to the enemy. Now in order to finish you off they will have to know your blueprint or guess where that single block is based on the way your ship is armored or how it rotates. If you try to go straight for the center of the enemy ship, yes you\'re likely to hit something important, but you\'ve got much the same chance to hit something important anywhere else on the ship.

    This opens up a lot of options for pilots. They can bullhead there way to victory by guessing where the core is, or they can play it slower but smarter by disabling important ship systems like shooting out the turrets/guns hidden on the ship, hitting the enemy thrusters in a blitz first before engaging them properly, cutting enemy power regen down by cutting a line through their ship.

    Having a single block be the heart and mind of your ship, and all the hiding/protecting and finding/attacking it entails can be a healthy part of Starmade combat.

    Any comments?